Department Commonage meetings

Connemara Farmer

Anyone go to Westport last night? I couldn't go due to family commitments, will be heading for Maam Cross tonight though.

patrickn

Yes I was there and unfortunately collective agreement is still part of the deal. One Planner only can draw up a commonage grazing plans with the 50% rule still in place.

When questioned on this matter the Dept. official said it was never agreed to take the collective agreement out of the equation and that any indications that it was came from the Hill farmers group. Lots of head scratching and the realisation by farmers that we are back to square one and being told that this is what's on offer and take it or leave it.

rangler1

patrickn wrote: »

Yes I was there and unfortunately collective agreement is still part of the deal. One Planner only can draw up a commonage grazing plans with the 50% rule still in place.

When questioned on this matter the Dept. official said it was never agreed to take the collective agreement out of the equation and that any indications that it was came from the Hill farmers group. Lots of head scratching and the realisation by farmers that we are back to square one and being told that this is what's on offer and take it or leave it.

And I got hammered for telling you that here a month ago, That's as far as we (IFA) could get it in July, there must be a valid reason that CA is needed to get Glas through in Brussels,
Now will someone correct the farming indos story

Connemara Farmer

patrickn wrote: »

Yes I was there and unfortunately collective agreement is still part of the deal. One Planner only can draw up a commonage grazing plans with the 50% rule still in place.

When questioned on this matter the Dept. official said it was never agreed to take the collective agreement out of the equation and that any indications that it was came from the Hill farmers group. Lots of head scratching and the realisation by farmers that we are back to square one and being told that this is what's on offer and take it or leave it.

Effectively it was agreed in writing to remove the problem of CA, not by removing CA itself, but that if a genuine farmer couldn't get 50% CA, then that farmer or farmers could apply in their own right and be referred to the CIC for a decision. The CIC then indicated to farmers during negotiations that genuine farmers wouldn't be left out of the scheme when referred and in fact it was the farmers who weren't inclined to join GLAS that would be making the bad decision. People can infer from that last sentence what they will.

Now it seems they have gone back on all of that. Including the WRITTEN agreement, between the CIC and hill farmers. That's some way to do business. Busy day here so I haven't got the full story.

If what I heard of the Minister is true, that he was afraid the issues of the commonages would turn into trouble like the turf cutting issues, he may have just got his wish. If tonight goes badly in Maam Cross I would say all bets are off.

Connemara Farmer

I'm hearing not only is CA back on the cards, but Collective RESPONSIBILITY is alive and well also.

That means if your neighbour does something wrong, you pay for it too.

Would anyone not on commonage be happy to pay for their neighbours mistakes or mischief?

Poor Farmer in the hills

Anyone home from meeting tonight?

Western Pomise

Any idea why such a U - turn has been done by the Dept Connemara Farmer....is it coming from pressure from Europe,reality is that with the enlarged EU,Ireland has less influence.
Maybe Phil Hogan will sort it in time to come...MAYBE!!!

Connemara Farmer

Poor Farmer in the hills wrote: »

Anyone home from meeting tonight?

Walk out

Bodacious

who was meeting with? did all walk out!?


Hard to blame you given the empty promises

jjf1974

Bodacious wrote: »

who was meeting with? did all walk out!?


Hard to blame you given the empty promises

Meeting was with department officials who could'nt answer a lot of important questions from the floor. They tried to talk down to other people. After 3 hours Brendan joyce chairman of Connemara I.F.A said he had heard enough and was leaving the meeting he was followed by everybody at the meeting .

Connemara Farmer

Western Pomise wrote: »

Any idea why such a U - turn has been done by the Dept Connemara Farmer....is it coming from pressure from Europe,reality is that with the enlarged EU,Ireland has less influence.
Maybe Phil Hogan will sort it in time to come...MAYBE!!!

Bodacious wrote: »

who was meeting with? did all walk out!?


Hard to blame you given the empty promises

JJ summed it up, Dept held an "information" meeting in which they couldn't answer most questions and talked down to people. After Glas was thrashed out a bit, the entire attendance walked out as it was clear the Dept had rowed back on the agreement with hill farmers.

This is NOT coming from Europe. This is coming from the Irish Department of Agriculture.

We'll have to see how events unfold.

Connemara Farmer

http://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/22821-close-to-500-commonage-farmers-walk-out-of-dept-of-agriculture-information-meeting-in-maam-cross-last-night

http://www.highlandradio.com/2014/10/02/commonage-farmers-fear-commitments-may-not-now-be-honoured/

Be interesting to see how Donegal goes.

Connemara Farmer

An interesting point was raised last night. If somewhat devious in it's ingenuity.

For arguments sake, lets say a farmer has 50% of his/her land in commonage, and 50% in green land, and also say they have a SFP of €75 per HA.

Now, suppose that farmer isn't grazing the commonage, but is claiming it on paper.

The Dept are offering them a way out if they don't want to farm the commonage. They're saying declare your commonage area as 0.00HA on next years application and we'll let you take your €75 HA commonage payments and put them onto your €75 HA green land payments bringing them up to €150 HA payment on their green land.

All tickety boo, right? No.........

First things first, people should be farming land, so let's remove that argument here.

Under convergence the farmer is supposedly to get a raise to €150 HA by 2019. But, they've just accepted the departments generous offer and now already have €150 HA on their green land, and they have also halved their land area by declaring the commonage 0.00HA.

So they have effectively HALVED the raise they would have supposedly got by 2019 by electing to not farm their commonage.

So what's the problem with that?

The department never outlined the knock on result of halving their payment in real terms. Some way of saving money.

rangler1

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

An interesting point was raised last night. If somewhat devious in it's ingenuity.

For arguments sake, lets say a farmer has 50% of his/her land in commonage, and 50% in green land, and also say they have a SFP of €75 per HA.

Now, suppose that farmer isn't grazing the commonage, but is claiming it on paper.

The Dept are offering them a way out if they don't want to farm the commonage. They're saying declare your commonage area as 0.00HA on next years application and we'll let you take your €75 HA commonage payments and put them onto your €75 HA green land payments bringing them up to €150 HA payment on their green land.

All tickety boo, right? No.........

First things first, people should be farming land, so let's remove that argument here.

Under convergence the farmer is supposedly to get a raise to €150 HA by 2019. But, they've just accepted the departments generous offer and now already have €150 HA on their green land, and they have also halved their land area by declaring the commonage 0.00HA.

So they have effectively HALVED the raise they would have supposedly got by 2019 by electing to not farm their commonage.

So what's the problem with that?

The department never outlined the knock on result of halving their payment in real terms. Some way of saving money.

If they don't want to farm the commonage, is it not a good idea. They still have the option to keep it in good agriculture condition, and continue claiming if they want to. The option of claiming on land and not farming it won't be available much longer, they can now see land that's being abandoned

Connemara Farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

If they don't want to farm the commonage, is it not a good idea. They still have the option to keep it in good agriculture condition, and continue claiming if they want to. The option of claiming on land and not farming it won't be available much longer, they can now see land that's being abandoned

It is if they don't want to farm the commonage.

But, it was left up to the crowd the explain the repercussions of taking that action. The department were well fit to explain the ins and outs of how to do it, but not the end result.

jjf1974

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

It is if they don't want to farm the commonage.

But, it was left up to the crowd the explain the repercussions of taking that action. The department were well fit to explain the ins and outs of how to do it, but not the end result.

They did'nt seem to be able explain anything properly when they got asked questions.One of them seemed to be more interested in arguing with points raised by Eamon o Cuiv than answering any question with a straight answer.The whole Glas scheme seems to be made up as they go along.The only answer they could give to questions was "get a few sheep" or"we will have to talk to our legal people".

Connemara Farmer

jjf1974 wrote: »

They did'nt seem to be able explain anything properly when they got asked questions.One of them seemed to be more interested in arguing with points raised by Eamon o Cuiv than answering any question with a straight answer.The whole Glas scheme seems to be made up as they go along.The only answer they could give to questions was "get a few sheep" or"we will have to talk to our legal people".

No, it was quite an irony to call it an information meeting with the distinct lack of information contained.

There are large legal liability issues outstanding for farmers thinking of joining GLAS. Of which, again, the department had no answer for, in fact they hadn't even sought legal advice on them as of last night.

I am still wondering which of them is coming out to sit my ewes down to tell them they must equally graze ALL of the commonage, BUT must stop at the line on a map border at the neighbouring commonages. I must video that.

skoger

Was at the Donegal meeting last night. Disappointing crowd there - don't think there was 200 farmers attending. No walk out or much abuse flying about. The biggest cheer of the night went to Henry O'Donnell when he brought up commonage farmers having an extra hoop to jump through to get into GLAS, having to rely on other farmers and getting plans in place when planners will be busy with SFP applications

rangler1

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

No, it was quite an irony to call it an information meeting with the distinct lack of information contained.

There are large legal liability issues outstanding for farmers thinking of joining GLAS. Of which, again, the department had no answer for, in fact they hadn't even sought legal advice on them as of last night.

I am still wondering which of them is coming out to sit my ewes down to tell them they must equally graze ALL of the commonage, BUT must stop at the line on a map border at the neighbouring commonages. I must video that.

The feedback I'm getting from lowland farmers on Glas is there's nothing in it for them either......haven't read it myself, don't want to commit to another five years farming

supersean1999

A man said to be recently, the way it's going hill farming will become like pigs, every time he moves a pig off his holding he has to ring the dep of agri, to notify them, it would not surprise me if commanage farmers had to ring everytime there was a change in numbers on a hill, ie all down for shearing, all down for the ram, all back up for August sept, and insections done accordingly,

dglhills

I was at the meeting last night in Ardara, sat beside a planner, he was of the opinion it was going to be next to impossible to get GLAS up and running on the bigger commanages. As we discussed the payments cliff the hill and commanages farmers were walked off over the last number of years with REPs and DAS cuts. As we listened to the department man tell us how great things were for us under convergence and how the rough land had to be farmed to remain eligible, and how if you didnt you could loose all your payments, I made the comment that it seemed that pillar 2 was now been seen as a further support for farms with large SFP in pillar 1. He countered that it was nothing to do with pillar 2 and all about pillar 1 that the rule changes were designed to push about 10000 older farmers out of farming who would fall through the cracks leaving more money to be distributed below the line from Carlingford Lough to the Shannon estuary roughly speaking. I've been thinking about it since and having had a good look around the room last night I'm starting to agree with him. Am I being too cynical?

Connemara Farmer

The figure of 80% take up of GLAS was mentioned in Maam Cross. I can't see that happening, REPS I don't think even hit 50% in this area. Then consider I was getting €12k in REPS, while GLAS offers €5k with GLAS+ an additional €2k IF you have the measures to qualify for GLAS+. Of course a farmer could enter REPS individually! S/he cannot now with GLAS and the depts dishonouring the agreement.

I am very cynical in regards to convergence, particularly when the players involved and their statements are looked into. I don't believe I'll see €150 HA in 2019, or if I do, that other schemes will be plundered before that happens. The Dept., like some others, are seriously putting the cart before the horse with their, what is it, €376 HA talk.

Older farmers are going to have a tough time. Personally I'm against the somewhat recent proposals against older farmers, I'm 36, but I believe they've worked all their lives, paid their taxes etc. I find a lot of it very distasteful.

doc11

On small holdings how are farmers going to be able to sustain large numbers of sheep to cover dormant shareholders in large commonages. Farming large hills yet receive only a small portion of the reference area in SFP, DAS and GLAS seems massively unfair. If farmers have to farm the total area shouldn't they receive payment through all the relevant schemes not just a tiny GLAS payment? And unlike enclose land you have to keep the responsibility of the animals all year round.

skoger

Is it too late get the meeting in Brussels that was postponed? They said last night that a decision was expected before the end of the week.

Birdnuts

dglhills wrote: »

I was at the meeting last night in Ardara, sat beside a planner, he was of the opinion it was going to be next to impossible to get GLAS up and running on the bigger commanages. As we discussed the payments cliff the hill and commanages farmers were walked off over the last number of years with REPs and DAS cuts. As we listened to the department man tell us how great things were for us under convergence and how the rough land had to be farmed to remain eligible, and how if you didnt you could loose all your payments, I made the comment that it seemed that pillar 2 was now been seen as a further support for farms with large SFP in pillar 1. He countered that it was nothing to do with pillar 2 and all about pillar 1 that the rule changes were designed to push about 10000 older farmers out of farming who would fall through the cracks leaving more money to be distributed below the line from Carlingford Lough to the Shannon estuary roughly speaking. I've been thinking about it since and having had a good look around the room last night I'm starting to agree with him. Am I being too cynical?

The whole thing is like a slow car-crash. Forcing farmers to keep up stock numbers in a falling price environment while at the same time making a dogs dinnear of the elgibility requirments for the likes of DAS,GLAS etc. will benefit no farmer in these commonage areas, young or old. I'd be suprised if any other EU country with a similiar farming community has been more incompetent in their dealings then the shower in the Dept running the show here:mad:

Connemara Farmer

skoger wrote: »

Is it too late get the meeting in Brussels that was postponed? They said last night that a decision was expected before the end of the week.

We're considering all options at the moment, some quite interesting from my POV Not sure what the option is on EC meeting as I wasn't dealing with that.

Birdnuts wrote: »

The whole thing is like a slow car-crash. Forcing farmers to keep up stock numbers in a falling price environment while at the same time making a dogs dinnear of the elgibility requirments for the likes of DAS,GLAS etc. will benefit no farmer in these commonage areas, young or old. I'd be suprised if any other EU country with similiar issues has been more incompetent then the shower in the Dept running the show here mad::(

"The ball is in your court now" was a quote from the Dept top table at the Hill Farming Forum in Tuam in 2013.

Grand, farmers stepped up, developed practical workable policies on many issues. They got as much heed as shouting at the tide to stay out it seems.

There was a Hill conference in Bantry I think in January this year and one of our lads was down. The short version of the collected wisdom was this:

Factories: We can export and sell any amount of light lamb, but we won't get paid for it.
Teagasc: Light lamb not worth feeding.
Department of Ag: We need thousands upon thousands more sheep on the hills to stop undergrazing.

So you're absolutely right. It'd be funny if it didn't affect thousands of families.

Birdnuts

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

So you're absolutely right. It'd be funny if it didn't affect thousands of families.

There seems to be a total lack of expertise in the Dept of Ag when it comes to such matters. Eitheir that or they are being ignored by the old fossils heading up the sections. In my expericence both are possibilities, throw in the current ministers attitude to farmers in marginal areas and its not hard to see why things are so screwed up. Why they can't copy succesfull schemes from abroad like the UK's Countryside Stewardship Scheme which by all accounts has delevered great results for farmers,environment and rural communities in many marginal areas of the UK I just don't know:(

longgonesilver

See that you made it onto the Irish Times, the more people that know about the problem, the better the chance that someone will have to do something to fix it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/another-life-counting-sheep-isn-t-what-it-used-to-be-1.1943046?page=2

Connemara Farmer

Interesting article in the Farming Independent today regarding the ACA's idea re GLAS and commonages. While I'd agree the Department must pay for and take ownership of the commonage management plans, I absolutely do not agree with withholding €20 out of the farmers €120/ha to pay for it, considering the EU says €150/ha and in REPS it started at €242/ha up to a point.

Seems to be a bit of an illusion that solving the above problem will solve all problems, however the situation at the moment re collective agreement is completely unacceptable and remains as much of a red line issue today as it always has been. As far as I understand it the proposal at the moment is that a farmer can join GLAS but through the management plan, which needs 50% to activate it.

Sir Humphrey would be proud, but then again, Sir Humphrey didn't always come out on top.

PS would love to be a fly on the wall in the Ag Committee.


Bit on Agriland this morning also.
http://www.agriland.ie/news/hill-commonage-farmers-call-face-face-meeting-minister/

solerina

One of my neighbours was at the Commonage meeting in Clonmel last week (I couldn't make it) and he said that one question kept coming up which the Dept guys couldn't / wouldn't answer.....how will they recognise the active farmer and penalise those who are not active (in fairness this would allow more money to support those actually farming the commonage)
The nearest they came to answering the question apparently was to say that there will always be freeloaders !!!

Connemara Farmer

solerina wrote: »

One of my neighbours was at the Commonage meeting in Clonmel last week (I couldn't make it) and he said that one question kept coming up which the Dept guys couldn't / wouldn't answer.....how will they recognise the active farmer and penalise those who are not active (in fairness this would allow more money to support those actually farming the commonage)
The nearest they came to answering the question apparently was to say that there will always be freeloaders !!!

We got the "A" team at our meeting, the other Dept "information" (the irony) team would be weaker. Even they failed to answer a lot of questions.

This is the entire problem, a scheme should be built from the ground up, not the top down like this shambles.

Connemara Farmer

Henry O'Donnell has a good letter in todays Journal from hill farmers to the minister.

Connemara Farmer

"A solution for commonages" makes an interesting read.

http://www.yourcommonage.ie/