Wrong car choice for driving instructors

corkgsxr

Noticed a lot of driving instructors using diesel cars.
Besides the cost of clutches. I think you need a small petrol to learn proper clutch control.
A diesel just won't cut out unless your terrible altogether.

I learned in a 1.4 civic and they have a very light clutch but I had to get a feel for it or it was jerky or cut out easy.

Alanstrainor

Seeing the percentage of new diesels vs petrol on the roads these days, I'm not surprised. It makes sense really. And although the car may be hard to stall, being smooth off the clutch is what really matters.

Toyotafanboi

i agree with the OP.

my sister recently learned how to drive in a 1.6d focus (instructors car), when she had done a few lessons she decided to take her own car out, a 1.0 yaris and she couldn't get the clutching right at all.

Slunk

I learned in a diesel and then was driving a petrol after my lessons and took me a while to get the clutch right.

jimgoose

Agreed. I learned in a Mk. I Granada with a 3l Essex, highly recommended.

Moneymaker

Nissan Sunny was my first driving experience :pac:

Did my lessons in a Suzuki Swift petrol. Great little yoke.

I've only ever driven a diesel with an autobox so I have no idea what difference there is with the clutch.

You get used to any cars clutch with enough time imo.

H3llR4iser

It's not new - my mom had all her lessons and driving test in Italy, on a motoring school diesel Fiat UNO in...1986 - when diesel was the fuel of trucks and tractors only. I took my own test in 1999 on a diesel Corsa. The fact they are more difficult to stall probably helps the school/instructor avoid a few headaches with more "difficult" students; Full in the knowledge you have to re-learn each car you drive.

Point in case: when I first test drove my 159 (petrol) I could not believe how forgiving the clutch was - I genuinely thought a total beginner could sit at the wheel and look like a seasoned veteran. Then last month I drove my dad's 159, a 2.0 JTDm...and I stalled it like an idiot. Newer clutch, different bite point and my "habit" with my own car caught me out. First time in years I stalled a car...and it was a diesel

Mycroft H

Did my test in a 93 Defender.

You could take off in 3rd gear from a standstill. It was near impossible to stall

fmcg_scribe

corkgsxr wrote: »

Noticed a lot of driving instructors using diesel cars.
Besides the cost of clutches. I think you need a small petrol to learn proper clutch control.
A diesel just won't cut out unless your terrible altogether.

I learned in a 1.4 civic and they have a very light clutch but I had to get a feel for it or it was jerky or cut out easy.

You raise an interesting and valid point.

I used a manual petrol car to build road experience for my driving test and used the same car to pass my driving test.

Not long after I passed my test, I was thinking about moving to a new car. I was planning to stick with a manual petrol but when I went to a dealership to test drive a new car that I was interested in, the only demo car available was a manual 1.8L diesel. I found the clutch control to be a lot different from cars that I had driven previously and crawling in slow moving traffic at the the start of the test drive was a nightmare - the car kept stalling.

In the end I bought a different car less than a year later. Ironically, 10 years after that frustrating test drive, I now drive a large engine diesel car but it's automatic, mainly because a manual gearbox could not handle the torque from the engine.

At this stage, I've become used to automatics; however, I reckon that all learner drivers need to start with manual petrol cars.

CiniO

Is it not that you can't claim vat return on petrol, while you can on diesel.
I though that was the main reason virtually all businesses in Ireland use diesel vehicles...
And that obviously include driving instructors businesses.

corkgsxr

Mycroft H wrote: »

Did my test in a 93 Defender.

You could take off in 3rd gear from a standstill. It was near impossible to stall

I remember driving the fathers 2.5 navara when I was used to just motorbikes.

Forgot the handbrake completely. Thought it was slightly slow to take off.


Like I think if you learn in a petrol you'll drive a diesel fine. Learn in a diesel and if you get a petrol it's likely to be 1-1.4 and most would struggle with clutch control.

Foxhole Norman

I recently did Aviva's ignition test and it was in a TDCi Fiesta, I found it absolutely terrible in comparison to even my Yaris, the clutch was very heavy and the biting point is very low in comparison, I'd much rather drive a petrol for learning/test.

pred racer

Guys every car has a different biting point on the clutch, it has no bearing on the fuel used in the engine!
Diesel cars are harder to stall, I'm not surprised instructors are using them.

Foxhole Norman

pred racer wrote: »

Guys every car has a different biting point on the clutch, it has no bearing on the fuel used in the engine!
Diesel cars are harder to stall, I'm not surprised instructors are using them.

I get that every car has a different biting point but all the diesels I've driven have been in pretty much the same area, the petrols I've driven in comparison are generally a good bit higher and the clutch I find to be a lot lighter and easier on petrols.

jimgoose

corkgsxr wrote: »

I remember driving the fathers 2.5 navara when I was used to just motorbikes.

Forgot the handbrake completely. Thought it was slightly slow to take off.

Your oul' fella forgot the golden rule: Never, ever, give a Gixxer hooligan a large-engined car. He's practically guaranteed to make flitters of it with his bare hands. :pac::pac::pac:

corkgsxr wrote: »

Like I think if you learn in a petrol you'll drive a diesel fine. Learn in a diesel and if you get a petrol it's likely to be 1-1.4 and most would struggle with clutch control.

I'm inclined to agree. Small petrol cars are finicky enough little bastards. The mother's 2009 1.25 Fiesta seems to get around this using a more sensitive throttle linkage than an NSR500, howling off the tachometer scale at the least press of the pedal. :pac:

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Irrelevant if diesel, petrol or lpg. All cars are different.

if i learn to drive in a petrol vectra it can be completely different to a petrol Micra.

corkgsxr

jimgoose wrote: »

Your oul' fella forgot the golden rule: Never, ever, give a Gixxer hooligan a large-engined car. He's practically guaranteed to make flitters of it with his bare hands. :pac::pac::pac:


I'm inclined to agree. Small petrol cars are finicky enough little bastards. The mother's 2009 1.25 Fiesta seems to get around this using a more sensitive throttle linkage than an NSR500, howling off the tachometer scale at the least press of the pedal. :pac:

There a Yamaha engine in them

jimgoose

corkgsxr wrote: »

There a Yamaha engine in them

Figures.

leeroybrown

It's simple economics. Once small engined turbo diesel cars were an option for driving instructors they started moving across. It's probably been happening since Opel launched the 1.2l diesel Corsa. It keeps the cost of doing business down for them.

Plus most would probably view having a more difficult to stall car an advantage. It's pretty easy to get used to a different clutch and engine once you're actually able to drive a car safely.

Notch000

Mycroft H wrote: »

Did my test in a 93 Defender.

You could take off in 3rd gear from a standstill. It was near impossible to stall

learned to drive in a diahatsu fourtrack 2.8, it could take off in fourth, i once took off in fifth on the flat just to prove it could do it

frozenfrozen

After doing nearly all my lessons in a skoda fabia diesel 1.6, it's just taught me that I'll never own a small engined diesel car

Mycroft H

Notch000 wrote: »

learned to drive in a diahatsu fourtrack 2.8, it could take off in fourth, i once took off in fifth on the flat just to prove it could do it

The defender could do 4th only it was a bit of a jumpy start and not great on the clutch.

Mighty machine those jeeps were

Del2005

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Irrelevant if diesel, petrol or lpg. All cars are different.

if i learn to drive in a petrol vectra it can be completely different to a petrol Micra.

Not really that different starting off a petrol big or small engined car compared to starting off in a diesel.

I'm in the process of teaching my nephew to drive and was using a 93 1.4 petrol Astra. He was getting used to pulling off when we had to swap over to a 02 Berlingo type van and he completely forgot his clutch control and feeding in power. On a diesel it'll just pull with any power a petrol requires more sensitive clutch/throttle control to get a going.

Dartz

I stall the household diesels regularly. There's one especially that I always do.... usually by sticking it in third and not realising it.

Only ever stalled my own car three - twice on the day I bought it because 6th wasn't reverse - and once when I forgot to take it out of gear after setting the handbrake and took my foot off the clutch.

dgt

Daily van takes off in 3rd on tickover. I must try 4th and 5th some day for the lols.

Some yoke to tow with :cool:

Dartz wrote: »

I stall the household diesels regularly. There's one especially that I always do.... usually by sticking it in third and not realising it.

Only ever stalled my own car three - twice on the day I bought it because 6th wasn't reverse - and once when I forgot to take it out of gear after setting the handbrake and took my foot off the clutch.

Since driving the Merc now, I've stalled the parents cars by putting it into 2nd thinking it was reverse, then I can't find the parking brake release only to realize oh yeah handbrake

Noccy_Mondy

Ya I know a driving instructor who recently changed over from an 11 polo petrol to a 141 tsi. His reckoning behind it was the better return in fuel and the fact that learners find it easier to manage, (less likely to stall it)

Theres a bend that goes around and uphill at the same time near my house (primary road) and the mondeo (diesel) won't even take it in second, has to be shoved into first! Focus (diesel) will take second grand, 206 (petrol) would even do it in 4th!

Ded_Zebra

As a general rule I would say that small engines stall easier than bigger engines rather than petrols over diesels. Most diesels tend to be a higher displacement and hence are easier to not stall. I don't think its any easier or harder to learn to drive in a diesel or a petrol.

People who have a tendency to stall a car that they haven't driven before I would usually put down to a lack of experience of driving different cars. however they often blame the fuel type or something wrong with the clutch or the gear box being tricky (setting off in 3rd by mistake). Once you get more experienced it gets easier to adapt your driving to a different car and people realize theres nothing wrong with other cars, they're just different!

jimgoose

dgt wrote: »

...then I can't find the parking brake release only to realize oh yeah handbrake

Electronic parking brakes piss me off. My yoke has a proper handbrake operated by a great big iron bar worthy of Isambard Kingdom Brunel, and that's the way I likes it.

Demonical

jimgoose wrote: »

Electronic parking brakes piss me off. My yoke has a proper handbrake operated by a great big iron bar worthy of Isambard Kindom Brunel, and that's the way I likes it.

Have ta agree there. My yoke has one and "hill hold assist". Pain in the ****ing ring when at an uphill junction and you just want to edge out and have a look. It's diesel and I'm still conking it out left right and centre and I have the fecking thing months :rolleyes:

Toyotafanboi

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

As a general rule I would say that small engines stall easier than bigger engines rather than petrols over diesels. Most diesels tend to be a higher displacement and hence are easier to not stall. I don't think its any easier or harder to learn to drive in a diesel or a petrol.

People who have a tendency to stall a car that they haven't driven before I would usually put down to a lack of experience of driving different cars. however they often blame the fuel type or something wrong with the clutch or the gear box being tricky (setting off in 3rd by mistake). Once you get more experienced it gets easier to adapt your driving to a different car and people realize theres nothing wrong with other cars, they're just different!

i do think the fuel type generally does have a bearing on the "take off ability".

the 1.4 diesel polo we have at home can take off in second perfectly (with no shudder etc) with no throttle applied, to the extent of where if i'm driving it around town i treat it like an auto and just do anything between 0 and 50km/h in second, i'm sure the clutch won't thank me but it's very doable, it takes off with a bit of shudder in third but it'l go :P.

it's so easy thanks to what i would assume is torque (something we would all agree diesels are generally supreme in that regard) that makes take off in a diesel so easy. in first gear in a diesel, there is a good bit of torque behind you, generally speaking, which is something that is definitely lacking in your average sub 2.0 petrol.

Gazzmonkey

corkgsxr wrote: »

Noticed a lot of driving instructors using diesel cars.
Besides the cost of clutches. I think you need a small petrol to learn proper clutch control.
A diesel just won't cut out unless your terrible altogether.

I learned in a 1.4 civic and they have a very light clutch but I had to get a feel for it or it was jerky or cut out easy.

True when comparing petrol to older diesel cars....

Modern diesels will stall almost as easily as petrol, and stalling with a DMF fitted will make it feel like you've hit a low wall.

Alun

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Modern diesels will stall almost as easily as petrol, and stalling with a DMF fitted will make it feel like you've hit a low wall.

I always wondered what that was down to. I thought someone had rear ended me the first time I stalled my old CMax diesel!

MetzgerMeister

I did the Ignition test back in early 2004. When I got my provisional, I was driving my parents' second car, a Peugeot 106 XN diesel. The thing wouldn't pull the tits off a leper is was so slow.

the day I did the ignition test in Kilkenny, I was put into the driving seat of a 1.6 petrol Subaru Impreza. I had never driven a petrol car on the road before and the whole clutch feel was alien to me. I failed because of the pressure I was put under to drive a car that had a totally different clutch to what I was used to and was also a Jap import so the indicator was also on the opposite side of the steering wheel.

omicron

I learned in a 1.9 diesel and did lessons in a 1.3 diesel, only drove my parents 1.9 diesel for a while after the test. Then bought a 1.2 petrol, couldn't handle the clutch at all the first time I drove it!

jimgoose

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

I did the Ignition test back in early 2004. When I got my provisional, I was driving my parents' second car, a Peugeot 106 XN diesel. The thing wouldn't pull the tits off a leper is was so slow.

the day I did the ignition test in Kilkenny, I was put into the driving seat of a 1.6 petrol Subaru Impreza. I had never driven a petrol car on the road before and the whole clutch feel was alien to me. I failed because of the pressure I was put under to drive a car that had a totally different clutch to what I was used to and was also a Jap import so the indicator was also on the opposite side of the steering wheel.

What's the "ignition test"?

MetzgerMeister

jimgoose wrote: »

What's the "ignition test"?

A load of sh!te basically hah

It's a test that Aviva (Hibernian at the time I did it) have to give first time drivers a reduced insurance rate.

What they don't say is that the car it's on has to be a certain engine size along more criteria.

jimgoose

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

A load of sh!te basically hah

It's a test that Aviva (Hibernian at the time I did it) have to give first time drivers a reduced insurance rate.

What they don't say is that the car it's on has to be a certain engine size along more criteria.

Oh. I applied for the RoSPA RoADAR assessment there last week, they don't give a rattlin' scuttery what the engine size is. :pac:

Demonical

jimgoose wrote: »

Oh. I applied for the RoSPA RoADAR assessment there last week, they don't give a rattlin' scuttery what the engine size is. :pac:

Is that just for bikes or can you do it in a car?

Mycroft H

Yea, you can do it any car as far as I know.

Demonical

Mycroft H wrote: »

Yea, you can do it any car as far as I know.

Do you know where you can get training or what is necessary to apply for the test, prices, certain hours training etc.? It is hard to get definitive information online..seems to be more England based.

jimgoose

Demonical wrote: »

Is that just for bikes or can you do it in a car?

Bikes, cars and/or trucks.

Demonical wrote: »

Do you know where you can get training or what is necessary to apply for the test, prices, certain hours training etc.? It is hard to get definitive information online..seems to be more England based.

They have examiners based in the RoI, including in the Co. Cork area. You can get advanced training - I did mine with the ISM for ADI part II - but it tends to be a little costly. The RoADAR test itself costs €59.

http://www.roadar.org/

frozenfrozen

Do you get cheaper insurance after completing it or is it more just to improve your own driving skill? Would be nice if it was both

jimgoose

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Do you get cheaper insurance after completing it or is it more just to improve your own driving skill? Would be nice if it was both

I am told there are decent enough discounts with most insurers, as RoADAR is internationally recognised and updated every three years. It's based on the DSA/Hendon Police College advanced driving course, system-of-vehicle-control and all that kind of stuff.

meathstevie

System....remember it well, counter intuitive cornering, chase the meeting point and read Roadcraft u til you can rant it of in your sleep. Works pretty nicely though.

CiniO

jimgoose wrote: »

Electronic parking brakes piss me off. My yoke has a proper handbrake operated by a great big iron bar worthy of Isambard Kindom Brunel, and that's the way I likes it.

Me too.
You can't use them for turns and u-turns on the snow

dgt

jimgoose wrote: »

Electronic parking brakes piss me off. My yoke has a proper handbrake operated by a great big iron bar worthy of Isambard Kindom Brunel, and that's the way I likes it.

I don't have an electronic handbrake, I have a 4th pedal beside the clutch to engage my parking brake and the release is below the light switches beside the drivers door. Its all mechanical. It has happened already where I go to activate what I thought was the parking brake in the fathers car only to realise oh yeah, footrest

I don't really need a handbrake to have fun in this car anyway, although I'm toying with a hydro for the lols

jimgoose

dgt wrote: »

I don't have an electronic handbrake, I have a 4th pedal beside the clutch to engage my parking brake and the release is below the light switches beside the drivers door. Its all mechanical. It has happened already where I go to activate what I thought was the parking brake in the fathers car only to realise oh yeah, footrest

I don't really need a handbrake to have fun in this car anyway, although I'm toying with a hydro for the lols

There's only one thing that fcukan-well annoys me more than an electronic parking brake, and that's the Mercedes-Benz foot-hand-brake! :pac:

corkgsxr

Mm I sit in the new quashqais (how do ya spell the yoke) and look around like a ape. Then I realise o ya electronic just take off. Then I Conk it and realise o ya seatbelt first.


Surely you can't do the test in a car with a electronic handbrake

Tea 1000

Modern diesels are easy to stall in comparison to times gone by! The old 2 litre diesel Carina E and such like were almost impossible! High pressure injection seems to be the enemy of quick clutch releasers.
I learned in a 135! Many moons a go, when I was just a gosún.

jimgoose

corkgsxr wrote: »

...Surely you can't do the test in a car with a electronic handbrake

Why ever not??

Toyotafanboi

jimgoose wrote: »

Why ever not??

they would have features like hill start assist, which removes the skill of having to "find the bite" to take off on a hill etc?