Heel-Toe offset

MojoMaker

Odd one this but maybe someone has seen/heard/felt the same thing in the past.

Switched from NB 1064s over the summer to Saucony Kinvara 5s with the 4mm drop. Love the shoe - light, comfy, 'flat' (good looker too) but after almost every run and for the next 48 hours following I have mild to medium achilles tendonitis. This is something I have never experienced before and have had no symptoms in the past. My mileage is relatively low but consistent and there have been no spikes recently. I have been using the Kinvaras in tri races with lock laces and they've worked out well - except for the niggling pain in the day or two following each use.

After a few months of this I went looking for a solution and got some advice from the lads in AK Ashtown and ended up picking up a pair of NB RC1400s for general training and shorter stuff in particular. Lovely light shoe, 10mm drop, snazzy colours, and quite supportive. I made sure to restrict the use of them to intervals and short work as they feel more like a racing shoe than a heavy use shoe.

That being said I used them in the Dublin HM last weekend and was steeling myself for days of agony with the achilles following. Oddly enough, no issues whatsoever, felt great the whole way around, and next morning no achilles issues whatsoever, relatively fresh and looking forward to next run.

Is it possible the offset is a factor here or is there more in the mechanics of these two shoes that might be contributing? I would hate to have to turn away from the Kinvaras as I really like this shoe. Mark Horan reckoned the RC1400s are a much more supportive shoe and he didn't think the offset was the problem, moreso the overall shoe design, however another AK team member elsewhere reckoned I may have moved to a low offset shoe too quickly (12mm -> 4mm).

Thoughts?

sconhome

*shoots hand in the air* Can I have this one? Pretty please??

MojoMaker

I was hoping you would

sconhome

Longer ground contact time coming from slower runs with lower cadence at the lower profile (or reverse the thinking - longer Achilles pull) leads to overuse niggles.

Bringing the heel back up shortened the pull on the Achilles under the same conditions.

This is why you can race (high cadence, higher speed, shorter ground contact time) in the Kinvara but not long run.

I'd consider the 8mm Ride or even the new Triumph (November) as options for the long run training.

Bear in mind the accumulating effect of fatigue so you might be able to do tempo on tuesday in the Kinvara and not feel anything until in the middle of the long run on Sunday in the other shoe and end up blaming the wrong shoe for causing the problem.

mossym

AKW has had me tell him this several times


after some work in the sports surgery clinic in santry, it was recommended i try some flat neutral shoes, like the kinvaras. picked up a pair in i'd say march of last year, and used them for everything, long and short, was no fast in my schedule back then. up till then had run in higher drop shoes, 12/13mm. built up the distance to a July HM in killarney in the kinvaras, no issues, did the race, no problems, but in runs afterwards started getting bad achilles pain. this was after 4 months of using the kinvara's.

bit of experimenting, some advice from mr AKW, and i figured out my achilles couldn't take doing all my running in the kinvaras. drop was just too low and my achilles didn't like it. switched to using a higher drop for long and easy runs, and the lower shoes now only used for speed work/races. the balance between the two works fine, no achilles issues. i can do a few runs in a row in the lower shoes, which i do in any race week, but otherwise i switch them out.

it had been a mix of brooks ghost(12mm) and pureflow (4mm, same as kinvara), now using a pair of brooks ravenna's (8mm) instead of the ghosts, but that's very new so no idea if that will cause an issue. i don't think it will.

i actually prefer running with the lower drop, so i find mixing the two helps me use them for races with no pain issues. achilles issues at least.

MojoMaker

Thanks both, good feedback.

Just to mention I used to get tenderness on the right achilles only, never anything on the left (could be the calf is tighter on the right) and I used to feel it the day following a race - even a 5K - so the distance doesn't seem to matter.

I wonder does my gait change a little depending on the pace I'm running at - certainly at the faster paces I tend towards mid/forefoot strike but I must have a look at the HMP gait, maybe's it's striking in a more traditional heel-first fashion which is lessening the work that the achilles has to do? Perhaps the Kinvaras are not suited to me period - regardless of drop - be a shame as they're a nice shoe.

Related - I like the look of the 880v4 and the 980 Fresh Foam - any feedback on these? Tried on the (2014?) Saucony Triumph in AK Ashtown last month and liked them a lot - can see why they'd be a good recommendation for longer training.

sconhome

MojoMaker wrote: »

I wonder does my gait change a little depending on the pace I'm running at - certainly at the faster paces I tend towards mid/forefoot strike but I must have a look at the HMP gait, maybe's it's striking in a more traditional heel-first fashion which is lessening the work that the achilles has to do?

Absooutely, of course it does. That's the speed / cadence / ground contact thingy at work. This is why the Garmin 620 is a brilliant runners watch. All that data as you run.

Here's a bit about speeds & shoes etc. http://gottarun.ie/blog/how-many-pairs-of-shoes-do-you-need/

tunney

AKW wrote: »

Absooutely, of course it does. That's the speed / cadence / ground contact thingy at work. This is why the Garmin 620 is a brilliant runners watch. All that data as you run.

Here's a bit about speeds & shoes etc. http://gottarun.ie/blog/how-many-pairs-of-shoes-do-you-need/

I cannot find the 620 on the Polar site, link to it please?

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

I cannot find the 620 on the Polar site, link to it please?

Credit where credit is due. The 620 is a true runners watch.

Not much use for any other sport .... unlike the Polar

tunney

AKW wrote: »

Credit where credit is due. The 620 is a true runners watch.

Not much use for any other sport .... unlike the Polar

True, heard the v800 is getting great use in other sports, like fishing. Hear its an excellent weight for sea fishing.

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

True, heard the v800 is getting great use in other sports, like fishing. Hear its an excellent weight for sea fishing.

Nope they use it so fish can tell the time, the Garmin keeps fogging up :P :P

mossym

nicely done....:)

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

I heard a story of a cocky Polar fan boy who once posted his pride and joy Polar to someone as a kind of "HAHA you are cursed with Garmins, buy a polar".

Anyone care to fill in the ending...........

Yeah, it came back and worked perfectly. I suggested a visit to SpecSavers....