Usually very tolerant

I would consider myself very tolerant, feel sorry for a lot of the situation people find themselves in, realise most situations are complex and so on.

Just been listing to a man on the radio talking of how he went back to do a degree as a mature student( so not an 18 year old who might not understand the world/jobs/careers ).

He did a degree in philosophy and a masters in philosophy and apparently had some vague idea of getting a job of as a teacher( they don't teach philosophy in schools in Ireland ) or a tutor of some sort at third level. He is now he is unemployed and has no chance of getting a job.

While I do feel some what sorry for him I am also completely flabbergasted that a mature student would do a degree in philosophy with the vague idea of becoming a third level tutor/or teacher and is now surprised that they are unemployed!!

So should anyone who gets a second chance at education or is a mature student have more sense about what they study re the chances of getting a job afterwards.

whiskeyman

Were they talking to Joe?
I've no tolerance for them if so...

Birneybau

Could he not be a philosopher like that Plato lad?

AnonoBoy

You can lead a horse to Sense river but you can't make him drink the water of sense.


















Personally my degree in very good metaphors is very useful I find.

Eogclouder

Birneybau wrote: »

Could he not be a philosopher like that Plato lad?

Plato was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, in fact he mocked people who accepted money for teaching (primarily the sophists of the time).

Easy to take that approach when you're rich.

smash

mariaalice wrote: »

While I do feel some what sorry for him I am also completely flabbergasted that a mature student would do a degree in philosophy with the vague idea of becoming a third level tutor/or teacher and is now surprised that they are unemployed!!

He should analyse himself to see just how silly his ideas were!

AnonoBoy

AnonoBoy wrote: »

You can lead a horse to Sense river but you can't make him drink the water of sense.

















Personally my degree in very good metaphors is very useful I find.

There is a big difference between doing a degree in philosophy and then getting a job in customer support or a training to be an accountant or what ever VERSES doing a degree in philosophy and expecting to get a job as using your degree in teaching or tutoring along with being surprised that didn't work our.

minotour

When I was in college i remember Mature student meant anyone over 25. AS i approach my forties now i realize how daft that is, do you reckon this lad was proper mature then?

NIMAN

Da Lav Lahn thread this way

---

>>>


Totally agree with you OP. Why do IT, Accounting, Medicine, Business, Law etc when you can become a philosopher.

Wossack

degree in philosophy? isnt that a prereq to becoming a taxi driver?

caolfx

At least he can be philosophical about it.

Elmo

He's educated but he will have to realize that he prob won't get a job in the masters that he has. Going back to do the degree is good and it should show employers that he can do any job. He can research, write reports, give presentations and organize etc He might eventually get to do what he wants.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Philosophers don't actually work. They sit around in groups philospying about sh*t no one else cares about. It's not a real career, they're just brainy bums. He should have known that!!!

anncoates

I think it's safe to conclude that when somebody starts a thread with I'm usually very XY that the resulting post is generally anything but

AnonoBoy

anncoates wrote: »

I think it's safe to conclude that when somebody starts a thread with I'm usually very XY that the resulting post is generally anything but

Except for chromosome threads.

minotour

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Except for chromosome threads.

As biology jokes go, that not bad!

There is also the point that as a mature students people often have different responsibilities such as supporting children or family, which means there is added pressure to study something that will provide you with an income.

In other words there is a big difference between a 22 year old graduating with out a care in the world ( doesn't really matter what degree they do at that age ) and someone going back to education when they have other financial responsibilities.

Stone Deaf 4evr

Eogclouder wrote: »

Plato was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, in fact he mocked people who accepted money for teaching (primarily the sophists of the time).

Easy to take that approach when you're rich.

That must have been very painful for his mother.

anncoates

anncoates wrote: »

I think it's safe to conclude that when somebody starts a thread with I'm usually very XY that the resulting post is generally anything but

That's a lazy meme that keep getting repeated.

B.A._Baracus

Ahhhh, I don't believe what people say about themselves on phone-in talk radio shows.

Joe: Next caller, I hear you haven't got two euros to rub together...
Caller: It's a disgrace joe. I haven't got a job. I have no money. I honestly dont know where my next meal will come from *LOUD NOISE*
Joe: Sorry, could you turn down that noise in the background?
Caller: Sorry Joe, I can't it's the music Dunnes Stores plays. Doing the weely shopping ya know.

P_1

What somebody does with their own time or money is nobodies business to be honest.

Yes having a masters in philosophy is a great thing when it comes to expanding the mind and whatnot, chances are it ain't the most practical thing to be doing in terms of a career etc mind.

B.A._Baracus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Ahhhh, I don't believe what people say about themselves on phone-in talk radio shows.

Joe: Next caller, I hear you haven't got two euros to rub together...
Caller: It's a disgrace joe. I haven't got a job. I have no money. I honestly dont know where my next meal will come from *LOUD NOISE*
Joe: Sorry, could you turn down that noise in the background?
Caller: Sorry Joe, I can't it's the music Dunnes Stores plays. Doing the weely shopping ya know.

Very true we only know what people choose to say about themselves, still an interesting point though, a mature student who chose to study philosophy and is surprised that they cant get a job with it.

Delirium

P_1 wrote: »

What somebody does with their own time or money is nobodies business to be honest.

Yes having a masters in philosophy is a great thing when it comes to expanding the mind and whatnot, chances are it ain't the most practical thing to be doing in terms of a career etc mind.

And not all education is done to guarantee a paycheck. People study things just for the fun of the subject.

SW

SW wrote: »

And not all education is done to guarantee a paycheck. People study things just for the fun of the subject.

Again all true, however if you had listened to him he wanted to get a job/ career from going back to education he was not doing it for interest or fun alone.

walshyp

He can just do a one year higher diploma (Level 8) conversion course as he allready has an undergraduate degree and then do another masters. He can also do a totally free one year Springboard (Level 8) course in computing, business etc and go on and do a masters then for free.

Springboard is free and can keep your dole.

Going through the colleges directly he can get back to education allowance.


Its his own fault for dragging out his own education, same as a lot of arts students but Higher diplomas are the work around. Don't feel sorry for him one bit. You would have a better chance doing a jam making course or a fas course to land a job.

P_1

mariaalice wrote: »

Again all true, however if you had listened to him he wanted to get a job/ career from going back to education he was not doing it for interest or fun alone.

Well that sounds like he thought that getting a degree was the "silver bullet" and walking into it poorly informed.

walshyp

walshyp wrote: »

He can just do a one year higher diploma (Level 8) conversion course as he allready has an undergraduate degree and then do another masters. He can also do a totally free one year Springboard (Level 8) course in computing, business etc and go on and do a masters then for free.

Springboard is free and can keep your dole.

Going through the colleges directly he can get back to education allowance.


Its his own fault for dragging out his own education, same as a lot of arts students but Higher diplomas are the work around. Don't feel sorry for him one bit. You would have a better chance doing a jam making course or a fas course to land a job.

Actually just to add to that, There is a lot of Level 9 (masters) courses in Business and I.T in springboard and you just need any undergraduate degree.

Delirium

mariaalice wrote: »

Again all true, however if you had listened to him he wanted to get a job/ career from going back to education he was not doing it for interest or fun alone.

Fair enough. Dude's a doofus in that case :P

Quin_Dub

SW wrote: »

And not all education is done to guarantee a paycheck. People study things just for the fun of the subject.

Totally agree - I think that , generally there are 2 reasons for going back to education as a "mature" student.

Either you go back to get more qualifications to improve your employability, or you are just learning for learnings sake - My own mother-in-law went back to College in her 60's and has gone on to get a PhD in Archaeology , no intention of ever using it to get a job etc. , she just wanted to do it for herself..

If you are going back for further study then you have to choose something that is directly useful & employable - Most of the "Arts" are not directly useful in terms of Employment , they are usually a stepping stone to some other study unless you plan to Teach (even then that usually requires a bit more work too) , e.g. Degree in Sociology & History , Post Grad MBA or whatever...

Doing a Degree in Philosophy or whatever without any other study plans and then complaining about a lack of job prospects is a fairly dumb choice to be honest.

Czarcasm

P_1 wrote: »

What somebody does with their own time or money is nobodies business to be honest.

Yes having a masters in philosophy is a great thing when it comes to expanding the mind and whatnot, chances are it ain't the most practical thing to be doing in terms of a career etc mind.

Funny thing is though, as much as some people scoff at education in the Arts and philosophy and so on, the fact is they give a person skills that are useful in numerous fields of employment.

A bad attitude on the other hand, and any educational qualifications a person has, are rendered useless in terms of their employment prospects.

OldNotWIse

OP while I see your point with regards to the usefulness of the degree in question, and I agree we have no right to complain about something we have voluntarily undertaken I would like to question your use of the term "a second chance" when you refer to mature students. It has been my experience that most mature students (myself included) work to fund their studies and have to make big sacrifices to fit in lectures, tutorials, exams etc. I have lived pretty much like a pauper for the past couple of years to pay my college fees, have used all my annual leave for studying/exams and have what can only be described as a scrap of a personal life left. I'm not complaining, but I wasn't "given a second chance" - I made it for myself.

Delirium

Czarcasm wrote: »

Funny thing is though, as much as some people scoff at education in the Arts and philosophy and so on, the fact is they give a person skills that are useful in numerous fields of employment.

A bad attitude on the other hand, and any educational qualifications a person has, are rendered useless in terms of their employment prospects.

Definitely. Guy that I used to work with had a 'sensible' qualification but a terrible work attitude. Wasn't long in getting sacked.

Quin_Dub

Czarcasm wrote: »

Funny thing is though, as much as some people scoff at education in the Arts and philosophy and so on, the fact is they give a person skills that are useful in numerous fields of employment.

A bad attitude on the other hand, and any educational qualifications a person has, are rendered useless in terms of their employment prospects.

Absolutely - A degree provides all kinds of skills that can be applied to the real world , but outside of teaching , most "Arts" degrees are not used directly in employment..

P_1

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Absolutely - A degree provides all kinds of skills that can be applied to the real world , but outside of teaching , most "Arts" degrees are not used directly in employment..

Off the top of my head you have researching, working to deadlines, fact checking and countless other transferable skills to be fair. Transferable but not a Ronseal job I guess...

anncoates

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Except for chromosome threads.

Can I get with a blastocyst with piss joke here?

Egginacup

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Absolutely - A degree provides all kinds of skills that can be applied to the real world , but outside of teaching , most "Arts" degrees are not used directly in employment..

This is true. If you are not technical but want do do a degree and go onto to teaching then it's best to do a BA in History, Geography or maybe Economics. Most other Arts degrees are not very useful in getting a job unless you really delve deep into them and then maybe get in with the Academic crowd. A degree in Medieval Literature is useless unless you become the "man" of Medieval Literature and get working with some boffins in some library or something.
Lots of famous television people have arts degrees but they really only went to Cambridge and joined the Footlights and became great actors, etc.

Son Of A Vidic

mariaalice wrote: »

So should anyone who gets a second chance at education or is a mature student have more sense about what they study re the chances of getting a job afterwards.

Who are you to determine what 'sense' is? We all hold different values, different priorities in life. If someone discovers a passion for something and then pursues it. Regardless of what their prospective earning potential might eventually be. Then fair play to them. Personally, it's absolutely none of my business. I think we have enough of a meddling Nanny State as it is, without individuals joining in.

jimgoose

I say fair balls to him for applying himself to something which interested him, that he enjoys, and that might just maybe provide some sort or career.

Corvus Maximus

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Who are you to determine what 'sense' is? We all hold different values, different priorities in life. If someone discovers a passion for something and then pursues it. Regardless of what their prospective earning potential might eventually be. Then fair play to them. Personally, it's absolutely none of my business. I think we have enough of a meddling Nanny State as it is, without individuals joining in.

The guy in question, going by her OP, was doing it under the assumption it would guarantee him a job. Not out of interest. In which case yes, a bit of sense and research and guidance wouldn't have gone astray

Czarcasm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Who are you to determine what 'sense' is? We all hold different values, different priorities in life. If someone discovers a passion for something and then pursues it. Regardless of what their prospective earning potential might eventually be. Then fair play to them. Personally, it's absolutely none of my business. I think we have enough of a meddling Nanny State as it is, without individuals joining in.

I read it as people should have some idea of their employment prospects before choosing to undertake further study if the reason for their undertaking further study is to further their employment prospects. It's already been pointed out on the thread that a course in philosophy doesn't lend itself to employment prospects on it's own, so someone coming on radio and trying to make the point that they cannot gain employment from a degree in philosophy on it's own is merely stating the obvious.

minidazzler

OldNotWIse wrote: »

OP while I see your point with regards to the usefulness of the degree in question, and I agree we have no right to complain about something we have voluntarily undertaken I would like to question your use of the term "a second chance" when you refer to mature students. It has been my experience that most mature students (myself included) work to fund their studies and have to make big sacrifices to fit in lectures, tutorials, exams etc. I have lived pretty much like a pauper for the past couple of years to pay my college fees, have used all my annual leave for studying/exams and have what can only be described as a scrap of a personal life left. I'm not complaining, but I wasn't "given a second chance" - I made it for myself.

Just started first year at 25 as a mature student myself, doing a BBus in bar management and I'm gonna echo the above. 1500 a semester means I've to work fulltime around college. No one is gonna hand me this, I'm the one doing the work and paying the money myself. No grants, no Back to education.

I have some contempt for the person mentioned in the op though, going all the way through to a masters before realising his jib prospects are nil for his degree. I do think mature students should be more vocationally focused in general.

Son Of A Vidic

bluewolf wrote: »

The guy in question, going by her OP, was doing it under the assumption it would guarantee him a job. Not out of interest. In which case yes, a bit of sense and research and guidance wouldn't have gone astray

I'm sure a man capable of education himself to Masters level. Was possibly aware of the limited job prospects, his chosen field presented in this country. I'm also not really sure how you can conclude, that he also had no interest in the new path he pursued. The OP certainly doesn't suggest it, he might have had 'a vague' idea in finding eventual employment. But suggesting no interest is a bit of a leap.

FloatingVoter

Better doing that than pursuing a degree in Computer Science that you have no aptitude or interest in. Because the teacher / newspaper/ guy on Boards told you this where the careers were. 40 years on a help-desk telling people to check if the machine is plugged in awaits.

Donkey Oaty

bluewolf wrote: »

The guy in question, going by her OP, was doing it under the assumption it would guarantee him a job.

The Introduction to Logic module should have knocked that thought out of him right away.

Frito

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

The Introduction to Logic module should have knocked that thought out of him right away.

It was going well until he got to Epistemology and concluded he could never really know if there was a job.

CrazyRabbit

But he might be able to answer some of the greatest questions mankind has ever faced;

1. Why is there something rather than nothing?
2. Is the universe real or is it just an illusion?
3. Does free will really exist or is everything predetermined?
4. Does God exist? If so, which...if any of the hundreds of 'Gods' proposed by people is the true one?
5. Is there life after death?
6. What is the best moral system?
7. Is the universe just one giant mathematical equation?
8. How do AH mods come to the decision on which threads to close? Is it entirely random?

Donkey Oaty

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

But he might be able to answer some of the greatest questions mankind has ever faced

Sole criteria for making past the researchers to talk to Joe.

Merrion

I think an answer to those questions is more likely to come from a physicist than a philosopher but in both cases the immediate economic benefit is low but the societal advancement benefit is high...therefore it is good that we have people who have done masters degrees in philosophy.*

*(They can ask "what does it really mean to say that you want fries with that?")

cloudatlas

So he started studying in 2010/2011 just after the crisis hit. How was he supposed to know that things would not have improved by 2014? How bad was unemployment in the teaching sector at the time he started his degree?

I just want to reiterate what others have said, just because you see no value in a philosophy degree doesn't mean there isn't any value. I know people who studied philosophy who are top marketing executives and IT. professionals I also know people who decided to go into fields that aren't financially lucrative.

The following philosophy frustrates me: If you're not going to go to trinity and become a doctor, lawyer or a banker then life isn't worth living. Force yourself to be as miserable as possible in the pursuit of money.

osarusan

cloudatlas wrote: »

The following philosophy frustrates me: If you're not going to go to trinity and become a doctor, lawyer or a banker then life isn't worth living. Force yourself to be as miserable as possible in the pursuit of money.

I don't think anybody has said that.

People study stuff for all kinds of reasons, and some may do so in the knowledge that it won't help them with a job or whatever. That's fine, good luck to them, i hope they enjoy it.

But we're talking here about a student who seems to have chosen a career path with pretty unrealistic expectations about the value of his qualification relative to that career.

I can understand how a teenager wouldn't be thinking as clearly as they might about qualifications and career paths, but you'd hope that a mature student would have done their research a bit more carefully.

cloudatlas

osarusan wrote: »

I don't think anybody has said that.

People study stuff for all kinds of reasons, and some may do so in the knowledge that it won't help them with a job or whatever. That's fine, good luck to them, i hope they enjoy it.

But we're talking here about a student who seems to have chosen a career path with pretty unrealistic expectations about the value of his qualification relative to that career.

I can understand how a teenager wouldn't be thinking as clearly as they might about qualifications and career paths, but you'd hope that a mature student would have done their research a bit more carefully.

I didn't hear the radio show so I don't know whether the economic crisis meant he couldn't find a career in teaching or if it was the philosophy masters that was an impediment to him getting a job as a teacher.