Dublin needs 35,000 houses

outlooks

On the news paper this morning one could read that "Dublin needs 35,000 houses".

Well, where is all this demand coming from? Don't think that the number of people coming to Dublin is higher than the number of people that is leaving the City, so either a group of wealth people is collecting properties waiting to make their profit in a couple of years (as during the bubble) or all this talk is just to make prices to go up. Either way someone is doing a lot of money.

What is needed is a regulator that brings some control to this madness.

January

I reckon they're talking about 35,000 social houses.

Aard

European countries need about 6 new houses per annum per thousand population. This means that Dublin needs about 7,200 houses per annum, possibly over 8,000 considering the lack of recent construction.

chopper6

This is a nonsense perpertated bythe Govt in order to "re-start" the construction industry.

Once again the Govt are determined,by hook or by crook to start another property bubble..regradless of the mess that will ensue and the consequences for what remains of our countryside.

Yer Aul One

Anyone who has looked to rent or buy a home in the city in the last couple of years knows there is a shortage

chopper6

Yer Aul One wrote: »

Anyone who has looked to rent or buy a home in the city in the last couple of years knows there is a shortage

Thats because of Govt interference in the market and not because there's an actual shortage of properties.

There are also thousands of buy to lets sitting idle as the owners are deliberatly defaulting on thier mortages hoping for some sort of bailout.

Do not believe all this spin about an actual "shortage" or properties..NAMA alone is sitting on thousands of them.

Ben D Bus

outlooks wrote: »

Don't think that the number of people coming to Dublin is higher than the number of people that is leaving the City

Really? Where are you getting your figures from?

drumswan

outlooks wrote: »

Don't think that the number of people coming to Dublin is higher than the number of people that is leaving the City

Population of Dublin area to rise by 400,000 by 2031- CSO

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1212/492460-cso-population/

Cool Mo D

chopper6 wrote: »

Thats because of Govt interference in the market and not because there's an actual shortage of properties.

There are also thousands of buy to lets sitting idle as the owners are deliberatly defaulting on thier mortages hoping for some sort of bailout.

Do not believe all this spin about an actual "shortage" or properties..NAMA alone is sitting on thousands of them.

There is no glut of empty homes in Dublin. All the NAMA ones are occupied and rented. There has been no new building for the last 7 years, and the population of Dublin has been growing steadily. Rents are rising, house prices are rising, and we need more homes built.

outlooks

With the shortage current landlords can actually get more money for their tents and pay the old mortgages to banks. I wonder if building picks up again and brings rental prices down, if landlords will be able to pay the mortgage.

Someone is probably doing a lot of data analytics to make sure that the balance is kept.

hfallada

outlooks wrote: »

With the shortage current landlords can actually get more money for their tents and pay the old mortgages to banks. I wonder if building picks up again and brings rental prices down, if landlords will be able to pay the mortgage.

Someone is probably doing a lot of data analytics to make sure that the balance is kept.

Even with a huge amount of building in the few years. It would only make up for the shortage that has slowly built up with the last 7 years of no serious developments. Rents will not decrease rapidly over night. Plus prices tend to be sticky in the short term.

No one seems to be taking into account that a huge amount of young people left to work abroad. If these people return like people did in the 1990s. There will be even greater pressure on the Dublin housing market.

The only solution to the Dublin housing crisis is to build high rise apartments. Families can live in apartments no problem if they are a decent size

L1011

chopper6 wrote: »

There are also thousands of buy to lets sitting idle as the owners are deliberatly defaulting on thier mortages hoping for some sort of bailout.

Do not believe all this spin about an actual "shortage" or properties..NAMA alone is sitting on thousands of them.

Most btl defaults are and always were fully rented, just the rent is being pocketed.

NAMA does not have any appreciable number of empty units in Dublin.

moxin

The article does not say "Dublin needs 35,000 houses", it says homes. A home is either a house or an apartment. Most new builds will be apartments(and duplexes), good luck at getting families to buy them.

Time to get over our obsession of a low rise city. Designate somewhere in the city center for high rise apartments. Build them to a proper size and standard with the right amenities. Stop the urban sprawl. If other european cities can do this properly there is no reason why we cannot.

outlooks

High rise apartments poses another question - can families used to live in houses live in apartments and live by the rules that apartments require? I currently live in an apartment and some neighbours have dogs, make barbecues on their balconies, slam doors, throw parties in cubicles and leave rubish anyware in the stairs and lifts. Before you ask I am talking about Dublin South where a 2 bed costs 1.600 euro.

Ole Rodrigo

Higher density living inside the M50 ring is the best solution. This in turn will facilitate better public transport.

There is a serious amount of under utilised buildings in the city center.

TheBandicoot

That's my worry too- not sure that Irish people have developed an apartment-living culture, and as you point out that treat it like just a small private house, no regard for others, building rules, communal areas etc.

MadYaker

The irish aren't fond of high rise living. The idea of raising a family in an appartment is very unpopular here, mostly because the appartments here aren't suitable for it. It's common practive in mainland europe where much bigger appartments can be found, but most european cities have a more logical layout and better amenities than dublin does.

It's surprising that nobody saw this coming, no houses being built for 6 years despite a steadily growing population. It was inevitable.

Riverireland

MadYaker wrote: »

The irish aren't fond of high rise living. The idea of raising a family in an appartment is very unpopular here, mostly because the appartments here aren't suitable for it. It's common practive in mainland europe where much bigger appartments can be found, but most european cities have a more logical layout and better amenities than dublin does.

It's surprising that nobody saw this coming, no houses being built for 6 years despite a steadily growing population. It was inevitable.

Planning is not a skill our politicians have. Firefighting is more their style.

A Disgrace

The problem with the Apartments built here is that they look, and feel, like Travelodge Hotels. They all have tight, dark corridors, tiny bedrooms and functional-only kitchens. The build quality is poor and there’s such a restrictive set of rules that people cannot stamp their own identity onto any of them. It’s not even permitted to build a north facing apartment in Dublin for starters.

Compare this to the purpose-built apartments that you’ll find all over mainland Europe – large, high-ceilinged family size homes, with full sized kitchens and bedrooms, generous common areas and the ability to make yours, your own. Most of them don’t even have car-parking spaces, because they’re simply not needed, thanks to intelligent planning (high density central building) and excellent transport links

Until we embrace high-density building, which in turn will encourage more transport links and services locally, we’re going to have these same problems over and over again, forever.

Ole Rodrigo

People talk about certain things not being Irish and therefore are not going to work. Clearly, much of what is traditionally Irish - given that it is still a predominantly rural culture - is not suited to efficient urban living. Yet, with greater technological efficiency in farming and pressure for better use of energy resources becoming more acute, urban living is the only show in town, whether we like it or not.

We had better get used to apartments and all the other things that aren't ' Irish '.

TheBandicoot

A Disgrace wrote: »

It’s not even permitted to build a north facing apartment in Dublin for starters.

Really?

hfallada

outlooks wrote: »

High rise apartments poses another question - can families used to live in houses live in apartments and live by the rules that apartments require? I currently live in an apartment and some neighbours have dogs, make barbecues on their balconies, slam doors, throw parties in cubicles and leave rubish anyware in the stairs and lifts. Before you ask I am talking about Dublin South where a 2 bed costs 1.600 euro.

People do that in luxury developments in NYC. Dogs are allowed in most apartment blocks in NYC, although you pay a maintance on them depending on their size. If developers built apartments with roof tops that were practical,people could BBQ there with minimum disturbances.

Most Irish apartment blocks are dirty and poorly maintained as most blocks lack owner occupier. They want management fees to be a minimum as it's an expense to them and they gain nothing from it. I know one apartment block in Dublin with 140 apartments and not a single owner occupier. And the block is horrific

Aard

Single aspect north facing apartments will rarely be permitted. And rightfully so, imho. You'd have no direct sunlight for half the year. Easily mitigated in a new-build.

TheBandicoot

Aren't there lots of apartments along the south quays that would be north facing.?

I was in a friend's apartment(in the Bachelor's Walk/North Lotts complex) and it was definitely north facing.

Aard

More than likely those were built under the old regs. In certain constrained locations, or in existing buildings, standards may be relaxed.

SMJSF

see, the numbers on the housing list is stupid, because about 50% of the people have a roof over there head! I don't think everyone should be allowed to apply for it for this reason, it should be based on priority and needs.

There was a English documentary a few months ago called "how to get a council house", and there was a well off single woman in her 40s, living at home with her parents, and had a full time teaching job, no kids or car, and was f-ing about her friend with 4 kids were more important than her.
why should EVERYONE be entitled to a home if they don't actually need it? It's not good...

Aard

The figure of 35,000 housing units needed by the year 2018 does not refer to social housing. Social housing will make up a small proportion of that number. 35,000 are estimated to be needed, irrespective of how the future occupiers pay for it.

Muahahaha

Indeed, I think there was some plan to reduce the amount of social housing developers have to build in new developments from 20% currently to 10%. Not sure if the government are going to implement it but if they do then when building does get going again they'll be less new units dedicated to social housing

outlooks

Yeah rents are taking a big chunk of everyone's salary and this is impacting families a lot, specially if they have kids in crèche or other dependants. This plus the fact that the cost of living in Dublin keeps increasing won't make the city affordable in the short term causing serious social issues.

A very real alternative is to move out from Dublin, not saying abroad but to other cities in Ireland where the cost of living is more reasonable, where foreign companies have been settling in and new small Irish owned companies have started. Locations where a 3bed house can be rented for around 700€.

Some cities like Cork, Limerick, Galway and other areas like Shannon come to mind. True that the amenities and jobs are not abundant as in Dublin but do people really want to work only to see their money being taken to pay rents, crèche and supermarket?

And before you say that salaries are completely different, have a look. They don't look that different these days and make the math income vs expenses.

Investing in building in Dublin may not well be the Governments strategy. Ireland isn't just Dublin.

hfallada

outlooks wrote: »

Yeah rents are taking a big chunk of everyone's salary and this is impacting families a lot, specially if they have kids in crèche or other dependants. This plus the fact that the cost of living in Dublin keeps increasing won't make the city affordable in the short term causing serious social issues.

A very real alternative is to move out from Dublin, not saying abroad but to other cities in Ireland where the cost of living is more reasonable, where foreign companies have been settling in and new small Irish owned companies have started. Locations where a 3bed house can be rented for around 700€.

Some cities like Cork, Limerick, Galway and other areas like Shannon come to mind. True that the amenities and jobs are not abundant as in Dublin but do people really want to work only to see their money being taken to pay rents, crèche and supermarket?

And before you say that salaries are completely different, have a look. They don't look that different these days and make the math income vs expenses.

Investing in building in Dublin may not well be the Governments strategy. Ireland isn't just Dublin.

But Dublin is the centre of Ireland, whether people like to acknowledge it or not. The Government is located there(it should not be decentralised for a few expensive votes).Its the centre of Education(the countless third level institutions and english language schools). Most of our manufacturing is located there and most our food is grown in North county Dublin. Plus our a third of population lives within the metro area of Dublin. Dublin is the centre of Ireland

There is no way a technology company is going to sell to a group of Americans or Europeans that they will have a great quality of life in Shannon. Someone on a great salary would prefer to live in expensive Dublin, than a glorified industrial estate like Shannon. Dublin has a good night life,amazing shops and a very tolerant city. Something you will struggle to find outside Dublin

maryishere

There are some big towns / cities outside of Dublin with plenty of housing, plenty of schools, rail links, plenty of infrastructure. No crime or traffic or pollution to speak of (compared to Dublin ) , and people can cycle or take part in the great outdoors. They just need jobs. Serious imbalance in the country which is not healthy.

Aard

maryishere wrote: »

There are some big towns / cities outside of Dublin with plenty of housing, plenty of schools, rail links, plenty of infrastructure. No crime or traffic or pollution to speak of (compared to Dublin ) , and people can cycle or take part in the great outdoors. They just need jobs. Serious imbalance in the country which is not healthy.

"They just need jobs" -- you put your finger on it. We are only at the beginning of a return to economic growth. In the short to medium term, most if not all growth will be due to productivity and employment increases thanks to the multinational services sector. These companies already have a foothold in the major cities. When they expand, they will continue to expand in the major cities. The best that regional towns can hope for in the medium term is that relatively wealthy people might settle there as Dublin housing costs go up.