Diesel, Diesel EVERYWHERE !!!

goz83

I know there has been a mad obsession with Diesel vehicles in Ireland over the last few years, but until today, I didn't realise how bad it had become. I ran a quick search on 2014 Kia Sportage on donedeal. There were 41 hits, north and south of the border. Only 1 of them was a petrol model and that was in Antrim!!

Aside from Diesel being a couple of cent cheaper at the pump and being better on mpg, is there any other reason why this obsession has become so bad?

I think Diesel vehicles are for people who do big miles, or at the very least, when they do drive, it's a good 20 minutes on a relatively clear stretch of a national road, or motorway journey. I don't think Diesel cars suit most Dubs for example. I live in the suburbs and would do very few miles. Would rarely leave the pale and might pop onto the M50 once, or twice a month. Isn't that type of driving bad for a diesel? What are the pitfalls of driving a Diesel like this? I would struggle to get a nearly new petrol it seems. Ireland truly has go e Daysul mad!

afkasurfjunkie

If you only drive a few miles why the need for something as large as a sportage?

goz83

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

If you only drive a few miles why the need for something as large as a sportage?

Not that it should matter, but I have 4 kids and 2 big dogs that like the drive to the beach. I am also not specifically looking at the sportage, or big cars. I just ran a search on that particular vehicle, because I like them.

Hachiko

I hate tractors, and yes Ireland has gone mad on diesels.

Captain Chaos

Same here. Looking to get a second hand Focus Mk2 that's from around 2006 and not a base spec version and it's hard to find a decent petrol version that was looked after. The majority are TDIs and tend to be well looked after compared to the petrol models. Perhaps it says something about that type of owner of those cars.

Sam Kade

They say you should always do the opposite of what everyone else does I had two diesel cars in my time and never again. I spent more on getting parts and replacing tyres than the small saving I was getting on the fuel

djimi

goz83 wrote: »

Not that it should matter, but I have 4 kids and 2 big dogs that like the drive to the beach. I am also not specifically looking at the sportage, or big cars. I just ran a search on that particular vehicle, because I like them.

Sportage probably isnt the best basis of comparison, given that you would expect the majority of something that large to be sold in diesel.

Not that it detracts from the point of course; simple fact of the matter is that diesel is cheaper at the pumps so people in Ireland buy diesel. If petrol was 10c cheaper then you would see a swing in buying habits overnight.

Id hazard a guess that a large number of people who buy diesel a) dont know why they are buying diesel and b) have no clue how much it is costing them overall compared to the equivalent petrol model. No doubt there are a lot of people that require diesel, but there are also a lot of people who would be shocked if they saw the overall cost figures for their driving compared to petrol...

pippip

If you are comparing one make then you may well see more of one over the other as the petrol versions just cannot compete tax wise here with their emissions.

Cant remember who but I think the new impreza isn't offered in petrol here.

Look at say nissan or Ford and you'll see a closer ratio of petrol versions to diesel.

There is as mentioned the price of fuel but in some makes the petrol is off the scale to tax so isn't even considered in the irish market

Leonard Hofstadter

Even in the UK it's not much better; of course there's a lot more petrols around, as the market share of diesel is about 50% (compared to about 73-74% in Ireland), but this doesn't tell the whole story, British people tend to buy smaller cars (but with much better engines and spec, of course) than the Irish, but I think this is the real reason why petrol is more popular over there. Once you go beyond the Focus size it's almost as diesel obsessed as Ireland, company cars are big business in the UK and because company car tax is CO2 based this naturally favours diesels.

The British buy a lot of city cars (Toyota Aygo, VW Up! etc) and superminis (Fiesta/Polo etc) are the most popular class of car. Even in Ireland these cars are mostly petrol and that is the case in Britain as well. Compact crossovers like the Renault Captur are quite popular and these are mostly petrol in Britain, but there's plenty of diesel versions sold too. In Ireland city cars are very unpopular and although superminis are popular, small family cars like the Focus, Astra are I believe the most popular car class in Ireland. Large family saloons are still big business in Ireland, not a whole lot of them in the UK. The British of course also like hot hatches (they still buy as many of them as they always did) and sports and performance cars, these are usually petrol (thankfully), though cars like the Golf GTD do appeal, especially to company car drivers. And they say that the most popular version of the new Audi TT will be a diesel (perish the thought), so even though petrol is the favourite for such cars, diesel is also quite popular depending on the car.

Also, unlike in Ireland, you will see petrol powered premium German saloons, I have seen petrol F10 5 series and current model E-class and A6, plus quite a few petrol F30s, but be in no doubt, diesel is very much the favoured fuel in the UK once you go beyond the Focus category. Even in that class of car, a fair chunk of sales are for low powered diesels (the most popular Golf in Britain apparently is the 1.6 TDI, so that's the same as Ireland, but most Golfs are petrol as the various 1.2 and 1.4 TSIs are popular as well), but at least it's quite easy to find a petrol Golf or Focus, unlike in Ireland where petrol basically doesn't exist once you go beyond the Fiesta and Yaris class if you're looking at anything after 2008.

And an increasing number of British buyers love poverty spec German saloons, the most popular 5 series is the 520d (same as Ireland), which I'm told accounts for two in every three 5 series sold in the UK (though to be honest, it must be more than that because it's very noteworthy to see an F10 that's not a 520d in the UK), while the favourite A6 is the poverty spec 2.0 TDI (again, that's no different to Ireland), which accounts for over 75% of sales in the UK. There was a time when the British didn't go for the poverty spec engine in their big executive German cars, go back say 10 years and you'll find that people used to buy 525ds and 530ds, and the petrol versions as well, but those days are long gone because of the company car tax getting tougher and tougher on CO2 emissions as the years go by.

goz83

But, is it not more expensive to use a diesel in the city in the vast majority of cases? Motortax aside, the maintenance would be higher, no?

Foxhole Norman

goz83 wrote: »

But, is it not more expensive to use a diesel in the city in the vast majority of cases? Motortax aside, the maintenance would be higher, no?

Most of the people that buy them don't know that!

corkgsxr

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

If you only drive a few miles why the need for something as large as a sportage?

Why does it matter. If I like articulated trucks and want to use one to pop to the shops then why not. Car choices shouldn't be just figures on paper or fit in a category

curiosity

Well, KIA Ireland don't even have a petrol Sportage in their range . Kia UK have a 1.6 petrol, but an autotrader.co.uk search lists 431 Sportages up to a year old; 403 diesel & 28 petrol. Best nab that Antrim one OP!

dr.fuzzenstein

Larger cars tend to be diesel, just buy a v8 petrol land rover and you will know why.
Yes, at the moment too many people who don't need them buy them and the unsuitable driving style as well as the usual Irish maintenance leads to all these horror stories.
But wait till they offer large 4 wheel drive cars (cars that rely on low down grunt and torque) with a 1 liter petrol engine, first every Irish person will wet their knickers and second there'll be riots as they all try to snap one up.
So just wait for the milk carton engine or import.

Miscreant

goz83 wrote: »

Aside from Diesel being a couple of cent cheaper at the pump and being better on mpg, is there any other reason why this obsession has become so bad?

I am surprised noone has mentioned this but the "cheap road tax" is a major reason as well. People like to think they are getting one over on the Gubmint and sales outfits are pushing this as well. Some vehicles are special order only in petrol with looooong lead times as a result of this.
Most people dont seem to realise that total cost of ownership may be higher in a diesel over the course of 3 years than in the equivalent petrol. Motor tax and cost of fuel seem to be the only things people look at nowadays.
You might find a nice VAG estate in petrol (1.2 or 1.4tsi) such as an Octavia or Superb. A friend of mine has 4 kids as well and has no issues with his Octy estate.

Moneymaker

Because people are clueless sheep and easily influenced by what their mates tell them.

How many people who actually need a diesel vs the people who own them is probably way off.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Miscreant wrote: »

I am surprised noone has mentioned this but the "cheap road tax" is a major reason as well. People like to think they are getting one over on the Gubmint and sales outfits are pushing this as well. Some vehicles are special order only in petrol with looooong lead times as a result of this.
Most people dont seem to realise that total cost of ownership may be higher in a diesel over the course of 3 years than in the equivalent petrol. Motor tax and cost of fuel seem to be the only things people look at nowadays.
You might find a nice VAG estate in petrol (1.2 or 1.4tsi) such as an Octavia or Superb. A friend of mine has 4 kids as well and has no issues with his Octy estate.

It may, but with the current Irish attitudes, the petrol will lose way more in depreciation than a diesel. If I were to buy a new 142 car now and with the intention to sell on in 3 years, no way would I buy a petrol. Regardless of my usage.

Could you imagine in 3 years trying to find a buyer for a petrol passat/superb/octavia for instance? Whereas the diesel will sell quickly for a much higher price.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Moneymaker wrote: »

Because people are clueless sheep and easily influenced by what their mates tell them.

How many people who actually need a diesel vs the people who own them is probably way off.

+1
And regarding my post above this one, it is the sheep, unfortunately, that shape the marketplace.

Nono Toure

A mate of mine bought a diesel Mondeo a few months ago. When his mother arrived later that day to his house he told her he had bought a car. She didn't ask the normal stuff like "what car?" or "how much was it?" ... nope! First thing she said was "is it a diesel"?

When he said ya she was delighted for him. I was confused!!

Most people I know who buy diesel cars only want them because diesel is ~10c cheaper at the pumps, but they never factor in all the maintenance costs of a diesel compared to petrol cars.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Nono Toure wrote: »

A mate of mine bought a diesel Mondeo a few months ago. When his mother arrived later that day to his house he told her he had bought a car. She didn't ask the normal stuff like "what car?" or "how much was it?" ... nope! First thing she said was "is it a diesel"?

When he said ya she was delighted for him. I was confused!!

Most people I know who buy diesel cars only want them because diesel is ~10c cheaper at the pumps, but they never factor in all the maintenance costs of a diesel compared to petrol cars.

But that's the market right now.
Yes you have some posters in the likes of a motors forum who can appreciate the bigger picture, understand that 10 c cheaper at the pump takes years to make up the difference in purchase price, and not to mention the likes of DPF replacements etc that are needed.
Most people who buy cars buy the car that appears to have the cheapest tax and cheapest fuel. We call these people, sheeple!

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But that's the market right now.
Yes you have some posters in the likes of a motors forum who can appreciate the bigger picture, understand that 10 c cheaper at the pump takes years to make up the difference in purchase price, and not to mention the likes of DPF replacements etc that are needed.
Most people who buy cars buy the car that appears to have the cheapest tax and cheapest fuel. We call these people, sheeple!

On the other hand, I like a bit of torque and usually the pedril fanbois will counter with "yeah but 2 liter petrol turbo" (lol). If petrol comes back it will be in gutless, tiny engines that have to be screamed to the red line, I can't believe that someone like yourself would like to drive that.
I get a nice bit of push from my 1.8 oilburner and find I don't have to push it.
But then again, I do 120 km per day, so I do the mileage.
And the car is an 06, so no chaep tax but saved on the purchase price.

Hoagy

Also you can't reclaim the VAT on petrol here, which has a major effect on the business market.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

On the other hand, I like a bit of torque and usually the pedril fanbois will counter with "yeah but 2 liter petrol turbo" (lol). If petrol comes back it will be in gutless, tiny engines that have to be screamed to the red line, I can't believe that someone like yourself would like to drive that.
I get a nice bit of push from my 1.8 oilburner and find I don't have to push it.
But then again, I do 120 km per day, so I do the mileage.
And the car is an 06, so no chaep tax but saved on the purchase price.

I'm probably the second biggest daysil fanboy on the forum - behind only DGT! I prefer the diesel torque, smoke, clatter etc. But I don't use my cheap tax tee diddly eye for trips down to the shops and to mass like most of the post '08 diesel buyers do. Cheap tax + cheaper at the pump makes little sense considering the amount of loan repayment plus depreciation cost plus cost when big bills inevitably come in.

FWIW my daily driver atm is a 1.8 diesel fiesta. Before that my last daily was a 2.0d carina, the smoke-aholic car. But then again, I do the miles. Work commute is 45km odd each way, for instance.

This crap is worse than foglights chat

corglass

Sam Kade wrote: »

They say you should always do the opposite of what everyone else does ...

:rolleyes:

asteroids over berlin

I have a tdi audi a3, live in Dublin, saving about 20-30 a week. I travel the length of the m50 to work on weekdays, well worth it for me! Powerful bugger too

dr.fuzzenstein

Augeo wrote: »

This crap is worse than foglights chat

Yes, as soon as someone mentions diesel vs petrol this usually happens.

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I'm probably the second biggest daysil fanboy on the forum - behind only DGT! I prefer the diesel torque, smoke, clatter etc. But I don't use my cheap tax tee diddly eye for trips down to the shops and to mass like most of the post '08 diesel buyers do. Cheap tax + cheaper at the pump makes little sense considering the amount of loan repayment plus depreciation cost plus cost when big bills inevitably come in.

FWIW my daily driver atm is a 1.8 diesel fiesta. Before that my last daily was a 2.0d carina, the smoke-aholic car. But then again, I do the miles. Work commute is 45km odd each way, for instance.

What year is the Feshty? I'd say that thing moves a bit. I once rented a Fiesta in Germany and was told they only had the 1.6 diesel. I was gutted till I drove it, the thing was great! The only other diesel rental I had that was as good was a 1.9 Bravo with 120 hp.
Compared to all the newer diesels I drove, I found all petrols to be slow, gutless and not nice to drive.
Unless you go for more cc and a hefty fuel and tax bill.
But it is absolutely correct, if someone doesn't do the mileage there's no point.

BlatentCheek

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

It may, but with the current Irish attitudes, the petrol will lose way more in depreciation than a diesel. If I were to buy a new 142 car now and with the intention to sell on in 3 years, no way would I buy a petrol. Regardless of my usage.

Could you imagine in 3 years trying to find a buyer for a petrol passat/superb/octavia for instance? Whereas the diesel will sell quickly for a much higher price.

I think attitudes are swinging back away from diesel as people experience the problems with them. My mother bought a diesel a few years back in spite of doing tiny mileage for all the usual "cheap tax/no fuel bill" nonsense reasons. Now she has a recurrent DPF or EGR problem.

As that generation of turbodiesels age more and more people, particularly secondhand buyers, will be getting hit with unexpected repair bills for engines that were driven on short commutes and given crap maintenance. Once that happens to enough people you'll have critical mass for the motors-ignorant public to realise that diesel isn't a panacea and second-hand values for petrol will stabilise.

dr.fuzzenstein

^^^^^
Plus second hand diesels will be cheap and plentiful for those who actually need them.

ian87

goz83 wrote: »

Your dogs can drive! Wow!

monkeysnapper

I kind of see where your going on this . In 2007 We bought our Audi a4 avant 1.9tdi . The car cost us 16k and it was a real stunner which had done just 40k miles.

The reason I bought it was this car was going to last us for years . It was also going to save us on fuel and when we start a family it will be our family car . All very well but for years it did less than a mile a day carting my wife to work . I had company van . We didnt start our family till end of 2009. The car was a depreciating waste of money, it didnt save us anything, we could have bought a cheap 1 litre car if we wanted that.


Going on to 2014 the same car is still lovely and has done less than 100k miles . I only started putting on the miles the last year and a half when i got another job that was 30 miles away. I left that job a few weeks ago and got a job in the town i live so once again the car will sit doing nothing all day. The only positive i have is its a lovely car that is mint and drives better than any new cars ive driven over the last few years . But at 700 od quid a year to tax its still killing me !!!!

Edit Edit Edit........But can i just add one thing........ I bloody work hard and I bloody love the car !!!! and its all mine!!!! wwhooooagagagagagagaagagg

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What year is the Feshty? I'd say that thing moves a bit. I once rented a Fiesta in Germany and was told they only had the 1.6 diesel. I was gutted till I drove it, the thing was great! The only other diesel rental I had that was as good was a 1.9 Bravo with 120 hp.
Compared to all the newer diesels I drove, I found all petrols to be slow, gutless and not nice to drive.
Unless you go for more cc and a hefty fuel and tax bill.
But it is absolutely correct, if someone doesn't do the mileage there's no point.

Arah it's a mark4 non turbo 1.8 diesel so it is not capable of movement at all, even the oh's k11 micra is faster off the line.
What it does do well is do near 60mpg cruising at 100kmh - and that's most of my commute.

We had a 141 petrol clio there for a couple of weeks a while back as a rental and , while surprisingly well equipped, the engine was gutless. Funny thing is I'd say itd be a lovely car with the dci engine.

BlatentCheek wrote: »

I think attitudes are swinging back away from diesel as people experience the problems with them. My mother bought a diesel a few years back in spite of doing tiny mileage for all the usual "cheap tax/no fuel bill" nonsense reasons. Now she has a recurrent DPF or EGR problem.

As that generation of turbodiesels age more and more people, particularly secondhand buyers, will be getting hit with unexpected repair bills for engines that were driven on short commutes and given crap maintenance. Once that happens to enough people you'll have critical mass for the motors-ignorant public to realise that diesel isn't a panacea and second-hand values for petrol will stabilise.

Then the sheeple will change back en masse to petrol. Once petrol cars undergo the same transformation that diesels have already (adding turbos, reducing CC and increasing MPG) to a level comparable with diesel, the change will happen.
Funny thing is, petrols of that stage will be as bad as diesels are now for breakable parts.

dieselbug

But it's not all about practicality, for most people their car is about more than that.

For some it's a status thing, new car, expensive model, their car is a reflection of their personal achievments and nothing wrong with that.

For others it,s about passion for the car itself. Just look at all the clubs, forums, magazines related sports etc all as a result of the passion the car brings out in people.

I myself drive diesel always, not because it,s more practical, no it,s because I just like it, the sound, the performance even the smell and the black smoke. DPFs, DMFs, black oil, airlocks, bag of nails etc,etc, etc. :D:D

BlatentCheek

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Then the sheeple will change back en masse to petrol. Once petrol cars undergo the same transformation that diesels have already (adding turbos, reducing CC and increasing MPG) to a level comparable with diesel, the change will happen.
Funny thing is, petrols of that stage will be as bad as diesels are now for breakable parts.

Yeah unless you do a lot of mileage MPG is such a dubious measure of your actual overall motoring expenses.

porsche959

Do diesels of equivalent cc to petrol cars have lower emissions, all other things being equal?

If so, then buying a diesel post 2007 makes some kind of sense, much as I'd largely agree with the posters who say it's partially a fad.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

porsche959 wrote: »

Do diesels of equivalent cc to petrol cars have lower emissions, all other things being equal?

If so, then buying a diesel post 2007 makes some kind of sense, much as I'd largely agree with the posters who say it's partially a fad.

They have, for the most part, lower CO2 emissions.
CO2 is not a harmful gas, it exists in nature and makes up c79% of the air that we breathe.

What a ridiculous way to measure pollution.

Jumboman

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

They have, for the most part, lower CO2 emissions.
CO2 is not a harmful gas, it exists in nature and makes up c79% of the air that we breathe.

What a ridiculous way to measure pollution.

Your right diesel engines put out a lot more pollution than petrol engines.

Apart from cheaper fuel there is really no reason why anyone should have a diesel car.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Jumboman wrote: »

Your right diesel engines put out a lot more pollution than petrol engines.

Apart from cheaper fuel there is really no reason why anyone should have a diesel car.

They do (especially any owned by me anyway :P)
Some people own diesels because they like how they drive, I know that's why I own a diesel or two.

Plus, anyone doing any sort of mileage will be killed on fuel costs on a petrol car. Even the newest of the new petrol cars that I've driven have struggled to do more than 35mpg. Despite having 50+mpg on the ad, mind. Whereas my 900 quid '99 fiesta diesel will do 60 mpg, and isn't particular about the quality of fuel that she runs either.

ikarie

This thread reads alot like estate agents talking about two different areas in Dublin.
I would take the accuracy of the advice on this thread as if it were.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

ikarie wrote: »

This thread reads alot like estate agents talking about two different areas in Dublin.
I would take the accuracy of the advice on this thread as if it were.

What is this, I don't even?

dr.fuzzenstein

Jumboman wrote: »

Your right diesel engines put out a lot more pollution than petrol engines.

Apart from cheaper fuel there is really no reason why anyone should have a diesel car.

I've driven a few petrols and find them weedy, underpowered and just not as nice, unless u where to get a larger engined petrol that will murder me with fuel cost.
A lot of guff about "oh how great petrols are" but to get to that territory you're talking 8 to maybe 30 (if you're lucky) mpg and a serious tax bill.
While with a diesel, if you do the miles you won't be ruined.
And I like them. I don't like cars where I have to wring their neck to get anything out of them.
So you won't see me in an RX8 anytime soon.

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

What is this, I don't even?

It's more like judaen peoples front vs peoples front of Judea.

bazz26

ikarie wrote: »

This thread reads alot like estate agents talking about two different areas in Dublin.
I would take the accuracy of the advice on this thread as if it were.

I'm on the edge of my seat here waiting to hear your opinion on the subject.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I've driven a few petrols and find them weedy, underpowered and just not as nice, unless u where to get a larger engined petrol that will murder me with fuel cost.
A lot of guff about "oh how great petrols are" but to get to that territory you're talking 8 to maybe 30 (if you're lucky) mpg and a serious tax bill.
While with a diesel, if you do the miles you won't be ruined.
And I like them. I don't like cars where I have to wring their neck to get anything out of them.
So you won't see me in an RX8 anytime soon.

Unless you start at minimum 6 cylinder engines, most petrols will feel underpowered compared to a diesel. With some notable (mostly japanese turbocharged) exceptions.

The likes of a 6-12 cylinder luxobarge will feel "not underpowered" like a diesel, but will be a lot more expensive to run. I was running my GMC truck as a daily there for about 6 weeks and was throwing €150-€200 a week in. Comfortable and refined cruising that couldn't be beaten, but at excruciating cost.

Heroditas

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

They have, for the most part, lower CO2 emissions.
CO2 is not a harmful gas, it exists in nature and makes up c79% of the air that we breathe.

What a ridiculous way to measure pollution.

Nitrogen makes up c79% of the air we breathe, not CO2.

Marcusm

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

They have, for the most part, lower CO2 emissions.
CO2 is not a harmful gas, it exists in nature and makes up c79% of the air that we breathe.

What a ridiculous way to measure pollution.

Uh, I'm not sure what planet you live on but CO2 makes up 0.03% of the Earth's atmosphere - you're confusing it with Nitrogen.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Heroditas wrote: »

Nitrogen makes up c79% of the air we breathe, not CO2.

Marcusm wrote: »

Uh, I'm not sure what planet you live on but CO2 makes up 0.03% of the Earth's atmosphere - you're confusing it with Nitrogen.

Okay, guys., It still exists naturally in our air. May have confused the elements and the constituency of our air. What do trees need to "breathe", CO2? yes. I don't therefore see why CO2 is our measure of pollution - when it's anything but.

Heroditas

Plenty of things exist naturally. It's maintaining the right balance that is important.
Anyway, probably not the thread or indeed forum to discuss this.

visual

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Okay, guys., It still exists naturally in our air. May have confused the elements and the constituency of our air. What do trees need to "breathe", CO2? yes. I don't therefore see why CO2 is our measure of pollution - when it's anything but.

Diesel smoke is much more visible especially in a diesel badly needing a service or has faulty injectors but it's exhausted fumes being more visible doesn't make it more polluting than less visible petrol exhaust. Its why the focus is on CO2

goz83

Hoagy wrote: »

Also you can't reclaim the VAT on petrol here, which has a major effect on the business market.

Unless you're VAT registered, you can't claim it back on diesel either. I wonder what percentage of diesel car purchases since July 2008 were business purchases. Not very high would be my guess.

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

I have a tdi audi a3, live in Dublin, saving about 20-30 a week. I travel the length of the m50 to work on weekdays, well worth it for me! Powerful bugger too

And that's great, if you do the miles. The OP was more focused on the huge number of people buying diesels, who don't do the miles, who buy to save money on tax and fuel, but who likely spend more on maintenance and repair bills as a result.

ian87 wrote: »

goz83 wrote: »

Your dogs can drive! Wow!

I'm surprised you didn't mention the kids driving. My 3 year old is an animal behind the wheel :pac: