CI Insurance

buffalo

There's been some debate here before about the terms of CI insurance, which used to cover "training", and seemed to include commuting - as long as it was part of your training.

This seems to have changed. The good news is that it's far more clear and explicit now, the bad news is that it no longer includes commuting - by my interpretation.

Personal Accident covers all registered Cycling Ireland members of each affiliated Club (including committee members, coaches and officials) for a range of benefits payable in the event of an accidental injury during participation, including training and travelling to and from events or training sessions. Training is deemed to be official sanctioned training only. Travelling is only covered whilst as a member of an organised party under the direction of the Insured, and specifically excludes any travel by motorcycle.

I only spotted the update by chance while reading the docs. I haven't seen it publicised anywhere. I might be completely misreading, but the new wording seems to only include club spins, or perhaps even only CI training camps. Any thoughts on what "official sanctioned training" is?


edit: source is at http://www.cyclingireland.ie/downloads/cyclingireland-summaryofcover-2014(2).docx

Chips Lovell

I thought that wording was always there.

buffalo

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I thought that wording was always there.

I can't find a copy of (what I remember to be) the previous document, but the FAQ is still the 'softer' definition.

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/membership-faqs

What does my insurance cover?
All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out training or taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events.

kumate_champ07

if it doesnt cover commuting, which is a big part of alot of peoples training, then could it be possible to pay for 'Add-On Coverage' to cover commuting?

Beasty

Was speaking to Geoff Liffey a few weeks ago and mentioned this. He was unaware of any change, but I did suggest it was something that could have been "snuck in" by the insurers. He indicated he did not see an issue. I meant to follow up with him but it slipped my mind (which has been focused on my own insurance claim in recent times!).

(BTW this has been mentioned on at least 2 other occasions in the forum this year)

RayCun

buffalo wrote: »

This seems to have changed. The good news is that it's far more clear and explicit now, the bad news is that it no longer includes commuting - by my interpretation.

My read is that it never included commuting and this is now explicit.

(I run, and 90% of my running is done on my own. That's 90% of my training. My AAI insurance only covers the 10% I train with my club)

Beasty

RayCun wrote: »

My read is that it never included commuting and this is now explicit.

That was certainly not Geoff's view and he apparently has a say on what gets paid out.

buffalo

Beasty wrote: »

That was certainly not Geoff's view and he apparently has a say on what gets paid out.

CI sez:

You are covered anytime you are on the bike whether training or taking part in an event – either alone or in a group. As long as you consider it training than you are covered

eeeee

Slightly ot, but if you claimed for medical expenses, would the place you got injured in, would their insurance go up if you claimed? Badly worded question but you know what I mean? As in would their premium go up if you claimed for an injury yourself off your CI insurance but it happened there? Would their premium still be affected? This might be the stupidest question I have ever asked Boards!

I'm probably better off emailing cycling Ireland On that one, and finding a better way to phrase it.

Lusk_Doyle

gadetra wrote: »

Slightly ot, but if you claimed for medical expenses, would the place you got injured in, would their insurance go up if you claimed? Badly worded question but you know what I mean? As in would their premium go up if you claimed for an injury yourself off your CI insurance but it happened there? Would their premium still be affected? This might be the stupidest question I have ever asked Boards!

I'm probably better off emailing cycling Ireland On that one, and finding a better way to phrase it.

Only if you claim off their policy as a third party IIRC.

Beasty

gadetra wrote: »

Slightly ot, but if you claimed for medical expenses, would the place you got injured in, would their insurance go up if you claimed? Badly worded question but you know what I mean? As in would their premium go up if you claimed for an injury yourself off your CI insurance but it happened there? Would their premium still be affected? This might be the stupidest question I have ever asked Boards!

I'm probably better off emailing cycling Ireland On that one, and finding a better way to phrase it.

The place you got injured in will be covered by CI insurance anyway

One more thing about that insurance. Major organisations normally get the best deal by essentially taking the cost of the "day to day" claims themselves. This is often largely covered by an excess, but in the case of CI that's not really feasible as the claimants are typically its members. In that situation the following year's premiuum is often directly linked to the previous year's claims. Hence the fact that you and indeed I am making claims this year may directly affect CI's premium next year. That would explain why the Chief Executive of CI has a say over what gets paid out, as it will affect future costs of the organisation. I know my claim will pretty much come to the maximum for medical expenses (€2,500I think), which could cost every member another 10c or so next year. Because of this I did give some thought to not claiming, but bottom line is anything I get will be ploughed back into good cycling causes anyway so I didn't feel any moral pressure not to claim

eeeee

Beasty wrote: »

The place you got injured in will be covered by CI insurance anyway

One more thing about that insurance. Major organisations normally get the best deal by essentially taking the cost of the "day to day" claims themselves. This is often largely covered by an excess, but in the case of CI that's not really feasible as the claimants are typically its members. In that situation the following year's premiuum is often directly linked to the previous year's claims. Hence the fact that you and indeed I am making claims this year may directly affect CI's premium next year. That would explain why the Chief Executive of CI has a say over what gets paid out, as it will affect future costs of the organisation. I know my claim will pretty much come to the maximum for medical expenses (€2,500I think), which could cost every member another 10c or so next year. Because of this I did give some thought to not claiming, but bottom line is anything I get will be ploughed back into good cycling causes anyway so I didn't feel any moral pressure not to claim

Ok cool. I may leave claiming in my case, I don't want to raise the premium of where I crashed.

Beasty

gadetra wrote: »

Ok cool. I may leave claiming in my case, I don't want to raise the premium of where I crashed.

The point I'm making is it will have little if any impact on their specific insurance - it would though potentially push up CI's insurance cost (which it passes onto the membership) by a relatively marginal amount. I suspect there is no insurance specific to the track, but it's covered by CI's umbrella insurance. Likewise Newry Wheelers will not suffer directly because of my claim (resulting from a race they organised) - they are effectively covered as a club via their own CI yearly subscription

Lusk_Doyle

People should not feel any moral pressure against claiming when they have a valid claim. Likewise, with regard to the potential increase in premiums. You pay for a product to provide cover for costs associated with injuries, 3rd party damage, etc.

ROK ON

What Lusk Doyle has just said. If people don't claim when issues that are are covered by insurance arise then there is very little point to having the cover.

What I am worried about is the difference of opinion between CI-CEO and the insurance contract. That's worrying and needs to be clarified;
Are CI misinformed about this?
Or has the Insurance company changed the contract terms - if so were these changes pointed out?

Secondly - what is official sanctioned training? Does that mean a group ride with me club or do solo rides count? Do I have to be wearing club gear?

These need to be clarified - if I was out training on my own and happen to hit say a person who say runs out in front of me, I assumed that I was covered under third party - same as if I damage a car for example.
It is not explicitly clear that this is now the case. In a case where there is a potential sizeable liability I can see an insurance company walking away which would mean the only recourse is through the legal system. Many (including CI) do not have the funds to go down this route.

Lusk_Doyle

ROK ON wrote: »

What Lusk Doyle has just said. If people don't claim when issues that are are covered by insurance arise then there is very little point to having the cover.

What I am worried about is the difference of opinion between CI-CEO and the insurance contract. That's worrying and needs to be clarified;
Are CI misinformed about this?
Or has the Insurance company changed the contract terms - if so were these changes pointed out?

Secondly - what is official sanctioned training? Does that mean a group ride with me club or do solo rides count? Do I have to be wearing club gear?

These need to be clarified - if I was out training on my own and happen to hit say a person who say runs out in front of me, I assumed that I was covered under third party - same as if I damage a car for example.
It is not explicitly clear that this is now the case. In a case where there is a potential sizeable liability I can see an insurance company walking away which would mean the only recourse is through the legal system. Many (including CI) do not have the funds to go down this route.

A huge grey area and a massive gaping hole in the policy. FYI - where policies are non specific the decision, should it go to arbitration, goes against the insurer and with the insured.

ROK ON

Still - if you are putting in a large claim you don't want to then have to go thru arbitration.

Beasty

Well the "good news" is there are a few of us around here that are getting to test the system this year!! (although it's already been about 5 months since I started filling out the form, which is a complete pain as it's designed for claims in team sports such as soccer - hopefully I'll be getting it finalised in the next couple of weeks)

ROK ON

Beasty - not sure are you testing the system. Iirc you crashed during a race - nothing to test.

I regularly train on my own and rarely with my club. Furthermore often when I am out on a ride with others they would be TI members. Reality is that unless the definition of training is clarified then I should assume that I am not covered.

This is a joke tbh.

Beasty

One specific thing, thet I've never found mention of on the CI website, although others have told me it is there, is that you are supposed to report the incident giving rise to the claim to the insurers within 30 days of the incident. By pure chance I notified CI exactly 30 days after my accident, although given the condition I was in I could easiiy have taken much longer. Again though I was informed that CI hace some discretion to permit the claim to proceed even if that time-limit is not met

Beasty

ROK ON wrote: »

Beasty - not sure are you testing the system. Iirc you crashed during a race - nothing to test.

You are absolutely right there ROK ON, although the experience I've gone through has got me thinking about the whole process, and as highlighted in my previous post there are one or two points that need clarifying. I had intended taking some of this up with CI, but have not got round to it as I've actually spent quite a lot of time pulling together the claim. There is a lot of grief in the claim form itself which is really not designed for cycling accidents, and requires some information I am simply not in a position to provide (partly because I have no recollection of the accident, as well as the fact that there was no-one else who actually saw what happened as they were probably all too busy looking after themselves during the "incident" in question)

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

One specific thing, thet I've never found mention of on the CI website, although others have told me it is there, is that you are supposed to report the incident giving rise to the claim to the insurers within 30 days of the incident. By pure chance I notified CI exactly 30 days after my accident, although given the condition I was in I could easiiy have taken much longer. Again though I was informed that CI hace some discretion to permit the claim to proceed even if that time-limit is not met

Reporting claims later than 30 days after they have occurred happens regularly Beasty and once your explanation is reasonable there is generally not a problem.

wav1

I agree that theres a ''grey area'' here.Indeed we discussed this very topic last night at club meeting.
Well what is an officially sanctioned club activity.
My understanding of this through all the years,is that riders are basically covered even solo,as a solo ride could be an officially sanctioned club ride as in theory a riders club coach etc requires a rider at a particular time to do a solo ride.Again like Beasty I have discussed this in the past with CI and I feel traditionally that this is also their understanding of it.

cornet

Thought I'd share my experience of CI insurance.

Had an accident last year which involved A&E Charges, 2 nights in hospital, GP follow-ups and referrals to ENT and plastic surgeons. Specialist vestibular physiotherapy was also required. Was out of work for 3 weeks.

Thankfully my employer covered my absence from work and provide the highest level of cover from VHI (Platinum and Healthsteps Gold).

The VHI covered the in-patient hospital charges including scans (€1000).
I had another €1000 in consultants, GP and physio fees. Despite having the highest plans the VHI (due to excess) covered ~€430 of this so out of pocket by €570. The CI insurance kicked-in after and they covered the remainder of the charges (after their own excess). Now I have to claim the 20% back from the taxman on that excess at the end of the year.

The CI insurance broker was easy to deal and allowed sufficient time to gather the required documentation (witness statements etc). My GP charged €35 for the medical report (thought it would have been higher) - this cost cannot be claimed back by insurance.

In summary, even with private health insurance it is still worthwhile having the CI insurance.

Beasty

Just to re - iterate those points. I claimed just about the maximum possible ( all medical - no loss of earnings) - ie around €2,500. Aviva has stumped up a few more grand and I'll get some tax relief on the costs I continue to incur ( the insurance only pays for a year after the accident) which are not covered by Aviva. My claim went in with full backup and was settled without any questions.

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

My claim went in with full backup and was settled without any questions.

You obviously didn't claim enough so.

Beasty

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

You obviously didn't claim enough so.

Another 30 quid and I would have maxed out - as I said though I didn't need to claim any loss of earnings

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

Another 30 quid and I would have maxed out - as I said though I didn't need to claim any loss of earnings

So I was right.

UDP

cornet wrote: »

Thought I'd share my experience of CI insurance.

Had an accident last year which involved A&E Charges, 2 nights in hospital, GP follow-ups and referrals to ENT and plastic surgeons. Specialist vestibular physiotherapy was also required. Was out of work for 3 weeks.

Thankfully my employer covered my absence from work and provide the highest level of cover from VHI (Platinum and Healthsteps Gold).

The VHI covered the in-patient hospital charges including scans (€1000).
I had another €1000 in consultants, GP and physio fees. Despite having the highest plans the VHI (due to excess) covered ~€430 of this so out of pocket by €570. The CI insurance kicked-in after and they covered the remainder of the charges (after their own excess). Now I have to claim the 20% back from the taxman on that excess at the end of the year.

The CI insurance broker was easy to deal and allowed sufficient time to gather the required documentation (witness statements etc). My GP charged €35 for the medical report (thought it would have been higher) - this cost cannot be claimed back by insurance.

In summary, even with private health insurance it is still worthwhile having the CI insurance.

Glad to hear it worked out. Were you commuting or racing or involved in sanctioned training when your accident happened?

cornet

Thanks. It was during a sportive - the claim form doesn't distinguish if you were racing, training, commuting or if it was sanctioned by a club. I know of a club mate who had an accident (no car involved) commuting to work and claimed medical bills with no problems.

Also note unattached riders are covered by the CI policy - so the idea of "sanctioned" training is a moot point.

D9Male

I am a CI member, but I don't ride in a club. Always assumed I was covered on my Sunday morning spin. Given the wife "sanctions" my cycling routine and all.

Beasty

cornet wrote: »

Also note unattached riders are covered by the CI policy - so the idea of "sanctioned" training is a moot point.

There is no such thing as a "moot" point when it comes to the terms and conditions of an insurance policy. Yes it may well be that the practice has been to pay out for any claim arising from "training" in the past, but it would be very easy for an insurance company facing increased claims to apply the letter of the policy and seek some kind of confirmation/evidence that the training was "sanctioned". So long as that wording remains there is a risk it will be used to deny claims, unless there is some specific statement from the insurers that they will not do so.

cornet

From the policy

Assured: Cycling Ireland
Sport Insured: National Governing body for Cycling in Ireland
Insured Persons: 17,654 members

This Insurance shall cover the Insured Person for Bodily Injury sustained: -
(a) Whilst playing or officiating for the Assured club
(b) Whilst taking part in training organised by the Assured club
(c) Whilst travelling directly to/from away fixtures as part of an organised party under the auspices of the Assured club

ASSURED means the company, organisation or individual shown within the Schedule.
INSURED PERSON means the person(s) shown within the Schedule.

The word sanctioned does not appear anywhere in the policy. Once you are a member of CI and are cycling for whatever reason you are covered. If there are specific exclusions then they need to be mentioned, as is the case in any policy. If the insurer's wanted to get picky then the "insured persons" total needs to be corrected.

Beasty

cornet wrote: »

This Insurance shall cover the Insured Person for Bodily Injury sustained: -
(a) Whilst playing or officiating for the Assured club
(b) Whilst taking part in training organised by the Assured club
(c) Whilst travelling directly to/from away fixtures as part of an organised party under the auspices of the Assured club

So what part of this covers leisure cycling (non-training) or training that has not been organised by club or CI?

cornet

Define organised. Are these the official club spins at weekends? Must they be published somewhere? If some racers want to do some midweek training do they need to contact the committee? If I'm unattached do I need CI to organise my training?

If it is the weekend spin and the committee decide to cancel it due to weather on facebook or text. A couple of riders decide to go out anyway - are they covered?

Insurance is designed to be wide (and often vague) enough to accommodate these scenarios. I think the present policy works fine and in my case has served me well.

Beasty

cornet wrote: »

Define organised.

That's the get-out which, I am guessing, prompted CI to use the term "sanctioned". In my view either your club or CI should "organise" it. If it's organised by, say, a Tri club, then technically you may not be covered by CI insurance

IVCA does seem to offer cover pretty much whenever on a bike, which is part of my fall-back should the CI insurers ever start applying the letter (which they are perfectly entitled to do). Part of the reason they don't is all the routine claims effectively form a "history" on which subsequent premiums can be charged. The problem would be if there was a major claim that would give the insurer little chance of future recovery - they could well start digging their heels in then

The fact something has served you (and indeed me) well in the past is absolutely no precedent for the future