Local Property Tax

practice

Dublin City Council meeting on Monday 22nd September has the proposed 15% reduction on the agenda.
It will be interesting to see how the vote goes and if it will be on time for revenue to apply it.
Any have any idea why they are leaving it so late in the day.

Aard

The reaction to this by other Councils will be interesting considering that Dublin is one of the few local authorities subsidising underfunded authorities.

hfallada

I imagine they will vote for a cut in it since not all tax raised is being spent in Dublin city. I imagine all the county council's they are subsidising will cut their property taxes, as county council's tend to do what's best for their area rather than the tax payer

Aard

I don't see the cash-strapped Councils reducing their property tax rate because they'd have to commensurately reduce their levels of service. Dublin can afford to cut the tax because its economy is growing.

L1011

hfallada wrote: »

I imagine they will vote for a cut in it since not all tax raised is being spent in Dublin city. I imagine all the county council's they are subsidising will cut their property taxes, as county council's tend to do what's best for their area rather than the tax payer

Councils not breaking even will not be allowed cut their tax rate. I suspect some will be ordered to go to the +15% at that - Sligo comes to mind as especially broke.

Victor

practice wrote: »

Any have any idea why they are leaving it so late in the day.

The full council normally only meets once per month.

Doing it earlier in the year would have meant doing it without information on financial trends and proposed budgets for next year.

They also ran a public consultation.

odyssey06

Victor wrote: »

They also ran a public consultation.

For what it's worth... my online submission for this said cut it... councils running surpluses should be allowed to cut it... any councils running deficits should not.

odyssey06

The vote has been passed by 46-12, 15% cut.

GLaDOS

Great stuff, more money in peoples pockets, more money into the economy.

Victor

odyssey06 wrote: »

For what it's worth... my online submission for this said cut it... councils running surpluses should be allowed to cut it... any councils running deficits should not.

Strictly speaking , councils are meant to run balanced budgets.

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Great stuff, more money in peoples pockets, more money into the economy.

Eh, but less spent on services, that's money in the ec0onomy as well.

GLaDOS

Victor wrote: »

Eh, but less spent on services, that's money in the ec0onomy as well.

If the surplus tax is being spent elsewhere will it actually result in that? Or just less to subsidise other councils?

odyssey06

Victor wrote: »

Strictly speaking , councils are meant to run balanced budgets.

And the property tax was originally meant to be spent entirely in the council area that it was raised... If DCC collect too much money (as judged by central government) up to 20% of it could be sent to other councils who cut theirs by 15% and now need a handout.
Seems to me that cutting it now by 15% is a good pre-emptive measure against such a grab.

Also, house prices in Dublin are rising by approx 10-15% per year, moving properties into higher brackets. A 15% cut in the tax rate is essential to balance against that.

Clark2014

Its not a Property Tax its a bail out the bankers tax.

L1011

Clark2014 wrote: »

Its not a Property Tax its a bail out the bankers tax.

The random SF-inspired soundbites forum is that way ->

Clark2014

MYOB wrote: »

The random SF-inspired soundbites forum is that way ->

I don't support SF.

Clark2014

Even when Property Tax is added on councils will still have less money than they did 4 years ago.

Victor

odyssey06 wrote: »

it could be sent to other councils who cut theirs by 15% and now need a handout.

They're not allowed do that.

Clark2014

I'm glad I never paid this tax its just going to go up and up every year.

odyssey06

Victor wrote: »

They're not allowed do that.

Can you clarify why? Local authorities have the ability to vary the rates by up to 15%. I can find no mention in the published information on laws blocking a council from reducing the rates, so I'd like to find out more if there are restrictions.

Originally, central government promised that 100% of funding was to be used in the local area. Now it's only 80%. And there's nothing to stop the government reducing it even more - if we have councils cutting the rate or increase spending who then go to central government looking for more funding.

selous

I have a query on the property tax, I bought a duplex apartment about 6 years ago, it's been beset by problem after problem, with half of the estate now and still unsold and now stripped and vandalised, sewage has come up from the manhole covers, render is crumbling off the walls. (occupied and unoccupied) Recently a meeting was held with the receiver and a question was asked as to why they haven't sold any units since taking over, We were answered, The estate IS NOT planning compliant. My question(s) is,
Why am I paying property tax for a place that isn't planning compliant?
How was I able to buy my home, if the receiver legally cant sell them?

The council did have a builders insurance bond, but never used it, now it is gone,

Thanks for reading.

Victor

selous wrote: »

Why am I paying property tax for a place that isn't planning compliant?

It's not the council's fault it isn't planning compliant (have they defined this?). The council can't make a bankrupt (?) developer do things.

selous

The council is taking no responsibility at all for anything in estate, even told us it was our own fault for buying them, as "we" didn't survey them properly, Council told us the bond was for infrastructure, yet still never used it when they found that the builder piped an overflow from sewage pump straight into the river, (The pump regularly stopped working) The E.P.A, D.o.E, receiver and council all appeared one week, and 16 lorries of Dyno-rod cleared out drains and plugged the overflow, it then popped up through the man-hole covers.
Bond was almost 3/4 million euro, and never used it, sewage is infrastructure, there has been an awful lot of silence on this estate. One engineer who came and looked at it, passed a comment, that Priory Hall thought they had problems.

Aard

Sounds like a unique issue which demands more than a simple statement that the LPT shouldn't apply. And the Council are more or less correct -- your solicitor should probably have spotted whether or not the dwelling was planning-compliant before you paid for it.

selous

The estate wasn't finished when I bought my place, builder done a legger shortly after, so receiver finished the remaining units,
All the water rain and grey water is piped into the main sewage,
I suppose my main gripe is the council had the builders bond to fix the infrastructure we got it in writing that they had (and it wasn't to fix our buildings) but they never used it to do anything, and the money is now gone, the receiver said it went when Anglo-Irish became IRBC and that dissolved too. The receiver has told us they have applied 4 times for planning permission to fix the sewage to make the estate "planning compliant" so they can sell the units, but have been refused. So they asked the council what they want done, or they're pulling out, as the fund will have run out.
Then you find out that the County manager is on over E1,000,000pa wages, and we get threatened with jail (last resort) for not paying the L.P.T, (we did, pay that is, not jail)
So the bond gets wasted, he gets a million euro a year, we still have poop coming up manhole covers and pay tax for the privilege. Phew.

Esel

selous wrote: »

Then you find out that the County manager is on over E1,000,000pa wages.

?

selous

Yep, 1000000Euro a year wages. Or was that what the ? was for?

wowy

selous wrote: »

Yep, 1000000Euro a year wages. Or was that what the ? was for?

Owen Keegan, chief executive of Dublin City Council, earns €175,000. But let's not let the facts get in the way.

selous

Oh, hang on, maybe it is E100,000, (probably more realistic) it isn't in Dublin, (phew, I didnt say where it was, bit of bad reporting there, in my wee rant) there were some county managers listed in a report in the newspaper some weeks back and the wage they were on and this County of small population had one of the highest paid managers,

selous

Ah, just found the article, the top ten employees of the council earn E1000000 between them, and the county manager earns E132511.
Sorry for the mix up.

VichyPleb

New to this

I have being messing around with a spreadsheet that just looks at the total tax from an individual in ,Ireland , UK , France and the Canaries.
I have used the following assumptions
1/ I treat all compulsary income deductions as a tax.
2/ I have also taken the base price in the cheapest of the 4 countries and treat the balance as a hidden tax.
3/ I have broken down spend to the normals for food ,water, transport, electricity, property taxes, private health insurance (for where you can no longer trust the national system), general spend.

It appears I cannot post the spreadsheet but here are the results.

For €20k income

Single Ireland UK France Canaries
Euro Income 20000 20000 20000 20000
Euro Pay 17781 16930 18539 17000

Euro Tax 2219 3070 1461 3000
Income Tax rate % 11.10 15.35 7.31 15.00

Vat rate % Food 4.8 0 5.5 3
Vat rate % Restaurants 9 20 7 7
Vat rate % General 23 20 19.6 9
Vat on food spend of €2.5k 120 0 137.5 75
Vat on Restaurant spend €2k 180 400 140 140
Vat on General Spend €5k 1150 1000 980 450
Vat on Spend €9.5k 1450 1400 1257.5 665

Property tax €178,000 property 315 1200 800 380
Dirt on €3000 annual interest 1230 600 630 610
Car tax 570 206 0 60
Tax on Diesel 300 litres 150 192 140 0
Car Reg Taxes/Vat/etc 1965 1346 633.3 0
Taxes on Power/Gas/Electric
Health insurance 1300 0 400 400
Taxes on Water 55k ppp/a 140 40 53 0
Heating Taxes
Electricity @ Units p/a 8c


Total Tax on Spend 8570 6384 5171.3333333333 2780
Tax on living (Spend +Income) 10789 9454 6632.3333333333 5780
Percentage of income taken as tax 53.95 47.27 33.16 28.90


Base price of a c4 15000 15000 15000 15000
Price of a c4 20895 19038 16900 15000

Dutytaxes on c4 1.9 hdi 5895 4038 1900 0
Dutytaxes on c4 1.9 hdi / 3 years 1965 1346 633.33 0



I have taken whichever country has the lowest rate or tax as the base and deemed all figures in excess a hidden tax

Like living on € €9,211 €10,546 €13,368 €14,220
Salary increase on living in Ireland €1,335 €4,157 €5,009
% increase in living standards 0.00 12.66 31.09 35.23




In summary even on €20 per annum you are
12% better off in the Uk.
31% better off in France.
35% better off in the Canaries.

I know where I am going

My sheet is also done for €30k incomes €45k incomes and €60k incomes if any one wants them.

Victor

VichyPleb wrote: »

New to this

I have being messing around with a spreadsheet that just looks at the total tax from an individual in ,Ireland , UK , France and the Canaries.
I have used the following assumptions
1/ I treat all compulsary income deductions as a tax.
2/ I have also taken the base price in the cheapest of the 4 countries and treat the balance as a hidden tax.
3/ I have broken down spend to the normals for food ,water, transport, electricity, property taxes, private health insurance (for where you can no longer trust the national system), general spend.

It appears I cannot post the spreadsheet but here are the results.

For €20k income

Single Ireland UK France Canaries
Euro Income 20000 20000 20000 20000
Euro Pay 17781 16930 18539 17000

Euro Tax 2219 3070 1461 3000
Income Tax rate % 11.10 15.35 7.31 15.00

Vat rate % Food 4.8 0 5.5 3
Vat rate % Restaurants 9 20 7 7
Vat rate % General 23 20 19.6 9
Vat on food spend of €2.5k 120 0 137.5 75
Vat on Restaurant spend €2k 180 400 140 140
Vat on General Spend €5k 1150 1000 980 450
Vat on Spend €9.5k 1450 1400 1257.5 665

Property tax €178,000 property 315 1200 800 380
Dirt on €3000 annual interest 1230 600 630 610
Car tax 570 206 0 60
Tax on Diesel 300 litres 150 192 140 0
Car Reg Taxes/Vat/etc 1965 1346 633.3 0
Taxes on Power/Gas/Electric
Health insurance 1300 0 400 400
Taxes on Water 55k ppp/a 140 40 53 0
Heating Taxes
Electricity @ Units p/a 8c


Total Tax on Spend 8570 6384 5171.3333333333 2780
Tax on living (Spend +Income) 10789 9454 6632.3333333333 5780
Percentage of income taken as tax 53.95 47.27 33.16 28.90


Base price of a c4 15000 15000 15000 15000
Price of a c4 20895 19038 16900 15000

Dutytaxes on c4 1.9 hdi 5895 4038 1900 0
Dutytaxes on c4 1.9 hdi / 3 years 1965 1346 633.33 0



I have taken whichever country has the lowest rate or tax as the base and deemed all figures in excess a hidden tax

Like living on € €9,211 €10,546 €13,368 €14,220
Salary increase on living in Ireland €1,335 €4,157 €5,009
% increase in living standards 0.00 12.66 31.09 35.23




In summary even on €20 per annum you are
12% better off in the Uk.
31% better off in France.
35% better off in the Canaries.

I know where I am going

My sheet is also done for €30k incomes €45k incomes and €60k incomes if any one wants them.

Use the [noparse][/noparse] function.

Single Ireland UK France Canaries
Euro Income 20000 20000 20000 20000
Euro Pay 17781 16930 18539 17000

---

Your calculations are wrong

You can't add: €1,450 + €315 + €1,230 + €570 + €150 + €1,965 = €5,680, not €8,570. Your Irish tax as a percentage of income calculation drops from 54% to 39% and UK from 47% to 40% (higher than Ireland).

Health insurance and water are not taxes. Even if you dishonestly add €5,680 + €1,300 + €140, you still only get €7,120.

How many people earning €20,000 per year get to:
* buy a new Citroen C4 every 3 years (repayments about €6,965 per year)
* own a property worth €178,000 (repayments about €10,824 per year)
* have ~€100,000 in savings?
* spend €1,300 on health insurance
* spend €40 per week in restaurants

In summary:
* Income €23,000 (€20,000 + €3,000)
* Expenditure €27,784 (approximately)
* Tax €7,899

Your tax on diesel would appear to be understated. You omit tolls, etc. that are common in France.

You also forget that incomes for a given job are higher in Ireland.

Mr. Incognito

He is using online calculators.

Put the income at 40,000 and you will see massive differences.

VichyPleb

This is the spreadsheet for the 30k income

Yes I did take online calculators from various accountancy sites for the taxes.
The electricity figures are incomplete but I do know that the standard rates for Ireland include PSO levies and a standard charge of 19c per kw discount deals to about 14c per kw but France charges 8c per Kw with lower levies.
The numbers are based on my personal spend and yes on Irish tax rates you could not run a new car every 3 years but you can in the Canaries
Many Dublin pensioners already own the homes worth 178k either through buying it or through inheritance

BTW the figures at 60k per annum truly frightening



Single Ireland Ireland UK France Canaries
Public
Service
Euro Income 30000 30000 30000 30000 30000
Euro Pay 23681 24681 23732 26566 25500

Euro Tax 6319 5319 6268 3434 4500
Income Tax rate % 21.06 17.73 20.89 11.45 15.00

Vat rate % Food 4.8 4.8 0 5.5 3
Vat rate % Restaurants 9 9 20 7 7
Vat rate % General 23 23 20 19.6 9
Vat on food spend of €5k 240 240 0 275 150
Vat on Restaurant spend €4k 360 360 800 280 280
Vat on General Spend €10k 2300 2300 2000 1960 900
Total Vat on Spend 2900 2900 2800 2515 1330

Property tax €178,000 property 315 315 1200 800 380
Dirt on €3000 annual interest 1230 1230 600 630 610
Car tax 570 570 206 0 60
Tax on Diesel 300 litres 150 150 192 140 0
Car Reg Taxes/Vat/etc 1965 1965 1346 633.3 0
Health insurance 1300 1300 0 400 400
Taxes on Water 55k ppp/a 140 140 40 53 0
Pension Levy/Appropriation on €150k fund 1125
Heating Taxes
Electricity @ 4300kw p/a
Electricity PSO 79.11 79.11

Total Tax on Spend 12674 11549 9184 7686 4110

Tax on living (Spend +Income) 18993 16868 15452 11120 8610
Percentage of income
taken as taxes 63.31 56.23 51.51 37.07 28.70


Base price of a c4 15000 15000 15000 15000 15000
Price of a c4 20895 20895 19038 16900 15000

Dutytaxes on c4 1.9 hdi 5895 5895 4038 1900 0
Dutytaxes on c4
1.9 hdi / 3 years 1965 1965 1346 633.33 0



I have taken whichever country has the lowest rate or tax as the base and deemed all figures in excess a hidden tax

Like living on € €11,007 €13,132 €14,548 €18,880 €21,390
Real Salary increase for leaving €2,125 €3,541 €7,873 €10,383
% increase in living standards 0.00 16.18 24.34 41.70 48.54

Esel

VichyPleb wrote: »

This is the spreadsheet for the 30k income

Yes I did take online calculators from various accountancy sites for the taxes.
The electricity figures are incomplete but I do know that the standard rates for Ireland include PSO levies and a standard charge of 19c per kw discount deals to about 14c per kw but France charges 8c per Kw with lower levies.
The numbers are based on my personal spend and yes on Irish tax rates you could not run a new car every 3 years but you can in the Canaries
Many Dublin pensioners already own the homes worth 178k either through buying it or through inheritance

BTW the figures at 60k per annum truly frightening



Single Ireland Ireland UK France Canaries
Public
Service
Euro Income 30000 30000 30000 30000 30000
Euro Pay 23681 24681 23732 26566 25500

Euro Tax 6319 5319 6268 3434 4500
Income Tax rate % 21.06 17.73 20.89 11.45 15.00

Vat rate % Food 4.8 4.8 0 5.5 3
Vat rate % Restaurants 9 9 20 7 7
Vat rate % General 23 23 20 19.6 9
Vat on food spend of €5k 240 240 0 275 150
Vat on Restaurant spend €4k 360 360 800 280 280
Vat on General Spend €10k 2300 2300 2000 1960 900
Total Vat on Spend 2900 2900 2800 2515 1330

Property tax €178,000 property 315 315 1200 800 380
Dirt on €3000 annual interest 1230 1230 600 630 610
Car tax 570 570 206 0 60
Tax on Diesel 300 litres 150 150 192 140 0
Car Reg Taxes/Vat/etc 1965 1965 1346 633.3 0
Health insurance 1300 1300 0 400 400
Taxes on Water 55k ppp/a 140 140 40 53 0
Pension Levy/Appropriation on €150k fund 1125
Heating Taxes
Electricity @ 4300kw p/a
Electricity PSO 79.11 79.11

Total Tax on Spend 12674 11549 9184 7686 4110

Tax on living (Spend +Income) 18993 16868 15452 11120 8610
Percentage of income
taken as taxes 63.31 56.23 51.51 37.07 28.70


Base price of a c4 15000 15000 15000 15000 15000
Price of a c4 20895 20895 19038 16900 15000

Dutytaxes on c4 1.9 hdi 5895 5895 4038 1900 0
Dutytaxes on c4
1.9 hdi / 3 years 1965 1965 1346 633.33 0



I have taken whichever country has the lowest rate or tax as the base and deemed all figures in excess a hidden tax

Like living on € €11,007 €13,132 €14,548 €18,880 €21,390
Real Salary increase for leaving €2,125 €3,541 €7,873 €10,383
% increase in living standards 0.00 16.18 24.34 41.70 48.54

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