Dietary Distribution question

Krusty_Clown

Is there a simple way to work out what the daily calorie/carb/protein/fat intake should be for an 6 foot, 11.5 stone (73kg) long distance runner, who averages 80 miles per week year round (currently ~90-100 mpw).

Currently tracking my dietary habits using myfitnesspal, and it looks like I may be getting my distributions all wrong (if their suggested ratios are correct), or their profiles don't align with regular exercisers. Yesterday's stats are below. My daily calorie goal is 2,290 (before exercise) with a goal of losing a small amount of weight for my upcoming marathon (more of a stream-lining). The calorie goal below appears as 4,184, as that's 2,290 (basic) + 15 miles (1,894 calories) = 4,184.



I eat a very balanced diet, with very little processed foods, loads of fruit and veg, typically meat once or twice a day and I don't go hungry. I am on track for my race-weight goal, just wondering if I should, for example, be increasing my protein intake.

RacoonQueen

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Is there a simple way to work out what the daily calorie/carb/protein/fat intake should be for an 6 foot, 11.5 stone (73kg) long distance runner, who averages 80 miles per week year round (currently ~90-100 mpw).

Currently tracking my dietary habits using myfitnesspal, and it looks like I may be getting my distributions all wrong (if their suggested ratios are correct), or their profiles don't align with regular exercisers. Yesterday's stats are below. My daily calorie goal is 2,290 (before exercise) with a goal of losing a small amount of weight for my upcoming marathon (more of a stream-lining). The calorie goal below appears as 4,184, as that's 2,290 (basic) + 15 miles (1,894 calories) = 4,184.



I eat a very balanced diet, with very little processed foods, loads of fruit and veg, typically meat once or twice a day and I don't go hungry. I am on track for my race-weight goal, just wondering if I should, for example, be increasing my protein intake.

Hanley from the health and fitness forum has a spreadsheet which works all that out, which you can then put into the myfitnesspal stats. As far as I remember it will work all that out. I'll dig round for it later...have it on myemail/laptop somewhere

Krusty_Clown

That'd be great, thanks. It's not one of these 'carbs are bad' philosophies though, is it? I guess I'm thinking in terms of a well rounded dietary profile, rather than something that targets a specific dietary doctrine.

RacoonQueen

Found it: http://revolutionfitness.ie/opmacrocalculator/

I can't remember to be honest, I would imagine it would swing towards protein and fat but that's just an assumption.

Krusty_Clown

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I can't remember to be honest, I would imagine it would swing towards protein and fat but that's just an assumption.

Hmm...

Follow those guidelines making sure 80-90% of your foods come from “clean” sources – meat, vegetables, nuts, seeds, a small bit of fruit, limited startchy carbs, and no sugar.

Also, the spreadsheet seems a little 'virusy'. Any other recommendations?

tunguska

Have you read racing weight by Matt fitzgerald? He goes through this exact thing in the book. He tells you how to work out your optimum racing weight aswell.

Krusty_Clown

tunguska wrote: »

Have you read racing weight by Matt fitzgerald? He goes through this exact thing in the book. He tells you how to work out your optimum racing weight aswell.

Nope, I haven't. Would you rate it? Does it push a dietary doctrine?

groovyg

Would you consider making an appointment with a dietician or nutritionist and let them have a look at your diet? Obviously that area is a bit of a minefield as there are so many out there who advocate certain diets.

Krusty_Clown

groovyg wrote: »

Would you consider making an appointment with a dietician or nutritionist and let them have a look at your diet? Obviously that area is a bit of a minefield as there are so many out there who advocate certain diets.

I certainly would, but it seems like an expensive solution to a simple problem! Maybe I'm just being lazy, and the answer could be in one of the many marathon/running books I have gathering dust in my shelves. Will consult with P&D and Jack Daniels (the author!) this evening.

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Nope, I haven't. Would you rate it? Does it push a dietary doctrine?

I thought it was a good book. I mean most of the stuff in it, you'd know anyway, but theres some good information in there you might not be aware of. No it doesnt really push any particular diet, its common sense stuff like cut back on sugar, booze and junk. He goes through how you work out the %'s in relation to cabs, proteins, fats and overall calorie intake. Plus he gives a formula for calculating your optimum racing weight. This involves measuring your body fat accurately though and to do that you'll need to get a DEXA scan. They do it un UCD, it was 95 bills when I got it done.......

http://www.ucd.ie/sportandhealth/sss/laboratory/

BeepBeep67

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Nope, I haven't. Would you rate it? Does it push a dietary doctrine?

I have that book, will chuck it in my bag, in Cwd tomorrow most of the day, just let me know and I can leave at reception.

ger664

KC Currently reading the book as well. You probably know most of the stuff and a lot of it makes common sense. Basically you should not count calories per say while you are training but fuel the body with the correct amount of quality carb sources which I have no doubt you do already and things should start to fall into place.

As regards the estimate cals burned on MyfitnessPal it was my experience that it grossly overestimates this. I used myfitnesspal to drop a few pounds in the run up to sevilie but it was only when I entered cals actaully burnt from my HR watch that I started to get the expected results. Roughly I was burning 90 cals gross per mile ran also you need to subtract the 70 cals/hour to convert to a nett figure.

Per day i would guess your actual net burn is 1300 for 15 miles.

Gavlor

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I eat a very balanced diet, with very little processed foods, loads of fruit and veg, typically meat once or twice a day and I don't go hungry. I am on track for my race-weight goal.

Surely this is the most important piece?

How is your recovery? I'd imagine that will be a good natural indicator as to whether or not you need to ramp up the protein intake.

Krusty_Clown

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I have that book, will chuck it in my bag, in Cwd tomorrow most of the day, just let me know and I can leave at reception.

Cheers BB/Tunguska. May just pick it up myself, for future use. Don't think it'll solve my more pressing needs, particularly with having to get an accurate bf measurement. Would love to know what my ideal race weight would be.

ger664 wrote:

As regards the estimate cals burned on MyfitnessPal it was my experience that it grossly overestimates this.

Not to worry. I don't pay any real heed to the running calorie figures (I don't get down to that level of calorie balancing). I think you may be under-selling your effort levels (or you've lost a sh1tload of weight since I last saw you!), as I use a general rule of thumb that 1 mile = 100 calories, but like I said, I'm not really interested in daily balances, more about the distribution among nutritional classifications.

Gavlor wrote:

Surely this is the most important piece?

You're absolutely right. However, my sense of 'very balanced diet' is not very scientific, in other words, a lot of variety in my diet and largely staying away from 'the bad stuff'. I honestly can't comment on how my recovery is, as it has always been the same. I would likely notice changes in patterns, but there haven't really been any. That doesn't mean I'm doing things right though, and I'm just trying to figure out if I can do things 'righter'!

I flicked through Noakes 'Lore of Running', Jack Daniels 'Running formula', and Steve Magness 'Science of Running', and they were all surprisingly very light on the recommended nutritional side of things (or at least they weren't referenced in the index or Appendices). Many of them referenced the transformation of nutritional components to energy, but didn't go into great detail on the intake side of things. Pfitzinger and Douglas 'Advanced Marathoning' on the other hand, went into specific detail (down to the formulaic level) and I'll post the details when I get a chance, but it doesn't seem to make reference to mileage at all (formulas are specific to body-weight only), which seems unusual. Anyway, it may serve some use to answer the simple question, so I'll report back later.

Enduro

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I flicked through Noakes 'Lore of Running', Jack Daniels 'Running formula', and Steve Magness 'Science of Running', and they were all surprisingly very light on the recommended nutritional side of things (or at least they weren't referenced in the index or Appendices).

I presume you already know this, but don't forget that Noakes has completely changed his mind about nutrution since he wrote the Lore of Running. (Was just watching "Cereal Killers" on vimeo last night (a good little film)... there's a scene where he tears the pages out of Lore of Running himself).

Krusty_Clown

Enduro wrote: »

I presume you already know this, but don't forget that Noakes has completely changed his mind about nutrution since he wrote the Lore of Running. (Was just watching "Cereal Killers" on vimeo last night (a good little film)... there's a scene where he tears the pages out of Lore of Running himself).

Yes indeed. In fact Lore of Running was one of the tomes that had very little information about nutrition at all (except at the biological transformation level). In fact, as far as I could see, he spent far more time discussing the benefits of PEDs, rather than recommending nutritional plans, but it was based on a quick skim of the 15,000+ pages of the book!

ultrapercy

Enduro wrote: »

I presume you already know this, but don't forget that Noakes has completely changed his mind about nutrution since he wrote the Lore of Running. (Was just watching "Cereal Killers" on vimeo last night (a good little film)... there's a scene where he tears the pages out of Lore of Running himself).

Ya and give him another 15 years and he will be tearing pages out of his 2015 bestseller. Il still be eating porridge Mars bars peanutbutter on toast steak pints of guinness etc Il call it The Lore of Me!

Enduro

ultrapercy wrote: »

Ya and give him another 15 years and he will be tearing pages out of his 2015 bestseller.

Maybe so... and that's the reason I have so much time for his opinions. He's not afraid to admit when he is wrong and take a reverse course. Too many people just establish a position and bunker down to defend it.

Krusty_Clown

Enduro wrote:

I presume you already know this, but don't forget that Noakes has completely changed his mind about nutrution since he wrote the Lore of Running. (Was just watching "Cereal Killers" on vimeo last night (a good little film)... there's a scene where he tears the pages out of Lore of Running himself).

Meant to ask - do you know what his current philosophy is, and if he has published any nutritional guidelines? Would be interested to read what he has to say on the subject of protein intake.

ultrapercy wrote: »

Il call it The Lore of Me!

Can I get a signed copy?

KielyUnusual

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Meant to ask - do you know what his current philosophy is, and if he has published any nutritional guidelines? Would be interested to read what he has to say on the subject of protein intake.

The question wasn't for me but I love flouting my opinion so here goes.

I believe Noakes current philiosophy is based on a high fat/low carbohydrate diet and making a transition to using fat as the primary source of fuel during running. The reason I really like Noakes is that he very much promotes this as a diet that works for him and believes that if your current high carbohydrate diet is effective then don't change it. It wasn't working for him so he made the alteration and seems to have had great benefit from it.

I gather from your earlier comment that you have the book but you haven't read it? If so, I'd really recommend that you read it. In my opinion, its head and shoulders above other running books. What I think sets it apart, is that it doesn't promote any hard or fast philiosophy on running but is rather a really thoroughly researched study on running itself and allows you to make your own conclusions. There's some really interesting studies in it and lots of lovely, lovely graphs too .

ecoli

Enduro wrote: »

Maybe so... and that's the reason I have so much time for his opinions. He's not afraid to admit when he is wrong and take a reverse course. Too many people just establish a position and bunker down to defend it.

My only problem is that he doesn't acknowledge this possibility with how vocally he speaks out about those who do not adhere to his current views and openly attacks them on a daily basis.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Meant to ask - do you know what his current philosophy is, and if he has published any nutritional guidelines? Would be interested to read what he has to say on the subject of protein intake.

He currently is advocating a high fats, medium protein intake with the low - zero carb intake

KielyUnusual

ecoli wrote: »

My only problem is that he doesn't acknowledge this possibility with how vocally he speaks out about those who do not adhere to his current views and openly attacks them on a daily basis.

That's essentially the exact opposite to what I said . We must be reading very different articles or listening to very different interviews.:rolleyes:

Maybe its just this modern world of constant advertising and in your face marketing that has lowered my standards of what it means to be pushy

ecoli

KielyUnusual wrote: »

That's essentially the exact opposite to what I said . We must be reading very different articles or listening to very different interviews.:rolleyes:

Maybe its just this modern world of constant advertising and in your face marketing that has lowered my standards of what it means to be pushy

Don't subscribe to his twitter :P

Personally have alot of time for his physiology work around the sport but in terms of the more recent field of study and the nutritional I would be of a different mindset personally

KielyUnusual

ecoli wrote: »

Don't subscribe to his twitter :P

Personally have alot of time for his physiology work around the sport but in terms of the more recent field of study and the nutritional I would be of a different mindset personally

Well, I'll have to now :mad:

...in fact I just did.

Krusty_Clown

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I gather from your earlier comment that you have the book but you haven't read it? If so, I'd really recommend that you read it.

I have an earlier edition (I think it's Human Kinetics; 4 edition (December 3, 2002)). Because of its 944 pages, I always assumed it was more of a reference material; something you would dip into when you wanted to research a specific subject, rather than a page turner. I've dipped into it in the past, but now that I know it's full of lies, I'll be looking for a refund.

By the way, here's what Pfitzinger and Douglas have to say on the subject, in their Advanced Marathoning (2nd edition) - 2008:

Carbohydrates:
Exercise level: 60-90 mins per day - 7-8g carbs/per kg of bodyweight
Exercise level: 120+ mins per day - 9-10g carbs/per kg of bodyweight
I'd be closer to 120+ mins per day, so let's call it: 9g x 73kg = 584g
Myfitnesspal daily goal (based on today's 14.5 mile run) = 519g carbs

Protein:
Sedentary lifestyle: 0.8 to 1.0g protein/per kg of bodyweight
Endurance runner: 1.2 to 1.7g protein/per kg of bodyweight
I'm an endurance runner, so let's say: 1.5g x 73kg = 109g protein
Myfitnesspal daily goal (based on today's 14.5 mile run) = 209g protein

Iron: 10 milligrams

So what have I learned from all this? I need to read 'Racing Weight' by Matt fitzgerald. Also, based on my food diary (as kept on myfitnesspal), I could probably do with getting some additional protein in my diet. While I'm ok some days, my protein intake can be as low as 60-80g, so well below either recommendation. certainly it wouldn't hurt on session/long run days.

Oregano_State

200g of protein is a lot to get it. An average serving of lean meat is about 25-30g protein so that's more than 6 of those per day. Aim for 120g protein per day and you'll be doing fine, but sure to get at least 100g. After that the breakdown between fat and carbs is up to you but you should end up with something like 30/40/30 or 30/50/20 as a macronutrient breakdown for % kcals from protein/carbs/fat.

Source: I'm the same height and slightly heavier than you (76-77kg) and that's what works for me.

theboyblunder

Holy crap this is an interesting thread on a subject related to running. I got a vicious flashback to 2011 there. Noakes views are coloured by the fact that his family were born one jam doughnut from type II diabetes. His theory also relates to his ancestors in the north of england in the last ice age, and how they wouldn't have had any crops or good sources of carbohydrate.

Im pretty sure he wasnt around then, and I cant see how anyone would know exactly what mans diet was then. Which, as someone pointed out, leaves you with 'it worked for me'

200 g of protein sounds like a lot. If that was eaten at one sitting most of it would be metabolised.There was a study recently linking high protein diet to reduced life expectancy. But then there's a study for everything.

ultrapercy

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Meant to ask - do you know what his current philosophy is, and if he has published any nutritional guidelines? Would be interested to read what he has to say on the subject of protein intake.

Can I get a signed copy?

you can and welcome so long as you are not looking for a refund when, a year later, I publish my 2nd book titled "The Exact Opposite of What I Said Last Time".

pistol_75

There's a lot of short articles and podcasts of his various thoughts on this site

Make of it what you will but easy enough to get an understanding of his current views.