Am I entitled to a pay rise?

Lyla Mae

Hi All,

Just wondering what is your experience and opinion on asking for a pay rise,

I have been with my current employer for approximately 8 years, when I started this job my role was as a junior staff member in the office. My jobs included answering the phones (1st person), processing orders, paperwork on reps / drivers VISA bills, cash expenses, fuel expenses etc.

The senior staff members job included answering the phone (2nd person), entering incoming stock, processing orders, dealing with supplier ledger (invoices and credit notes received that month)

Shortly afterwards the senior staff member left to go on maternity leave and I stepped in to the senior roll with no extra pay rise for the extra work I would be taking on, in this time the suppliers went from 8-10 to 25-30 therefore increasing my workload entering incoming stock, supplier ledger etc. The senior staff member never returned to her original position in the company therefore I was the only senior member in the office dealing with my own jobs and now hers as well.

She has since returned to the company on a part time basis days a week for 3 ½ hours a day mainly making phone calls for accounts not doing any of her previous jobs.

I will add that the package this senior member was on included, a car which included insurance & services, fuel expenses and phone. She still has the car and gets insurance paid and still has her phone bill paid for.

In this time my hours have also increased from finishing at 5.15 now finishing at 6pm, which I will add I got an extra €20 in my pay pack a month solely because I kicked up a fuss as the later time with no mention or offer of extra pay initially

(This is a family business)

I also help out in other areas when we are short staffed….

Maybe it is my own fault for always willing to help and expecting nothing in return but it has just got to the stage where I think it has been 8+ years since I have been with this company my role has changed considerably, my workload increased substantially and nothing in return… no mention of a better package.

Any opinions greatly appreciated

Sadderday

Write a letter indicating how you role has changed and what extra duties you have taken on and ask for an increase.

If they don't give you one - take a step back just do what your supposed to do - don't take on anything extra and start sending your CVs out.

coolabula

To answer your question - Yes definately.
You are doing a completely different job than the one you were hired for.

However just because they were giving the other person a car and extra allowances doesnt mean you will get the same, but you should sit down and look at what the pay scale is elsewhere and then ask for a meeting with the manager and discuss a pay rise.
Be nice about it and show the extra work/hours you have taken on. If they dont want to loose you they should offer something, once they can afford it that is.

Good luck

NewCorkLad

You are not entitled to a pay rise but they are definitly walking all over you.

If I was in your position I would start looking for another job and then sit down with your Manager/Boss and have a discussion with them.

Mr. Loverman

Are you saying your salary has stayed the same for 8 years? (Apart from the extra EUR 20).

If so, I think you're due a pay rise, but I wouldn't say "entitled".

Lyla Mae

Yes, maybe entitled wasn’t the right word, but I feel I am due a pay rise.

I am not expecting the car, phone but I do feel it is time I get the recognition for what I do.

And to Mr. Loverman (nice name lol) I have not had a pay rise apart from the extra EUR20.

red dave

1 - Don't kick up a fuss when mentioning a pay rise
2 - Don't mention another colleague or compare your work to others when asking for a pay rise
3 - Do up a list of your day to day tasks that have increased over time
4 - Do up a list of what benefits you feel you bring to the company
5 - Make sure you have all tasks/ projects completed and ask for a 1 to 1 meeting with your boss/manager. (do not bring up a pay rise if everyone's under pressure trying to meet some deadline etc).
6 - Mention the main points of your lists to the manager and explain the amount of years at the job, really like the job and would appreciate if an increase in salary would be feasible etc.

If the company is struggling or in the middle of cost cuts then you'll know the answer before even asking the question. If the business is doing well then go for it.

Good luck

RossieMan

the question you always need to ask is could they hire someone fresh to do all the jobs you do? the answer is more often than not yes. Be happy you have a job, its not so easy to hold onto one for that long.

Lyla Mae

Thanks Red Dave, good points to follow there.

I will work on my answers during the week / over the weekend and have a good proposal when I do ask.

I was thinking maybe writing up a letter ,

I am happy in my job here and opportunity to work for you. Over the past 8 years my role has changed within the company and I have become as integral part of the team taking on extra responsibilities etc. blah blah blah outline what I have achieved.

The company is not struggling infact the company is growing and has taken on more staff and I just feel that the long standing staff are not being rewarding...

red dave

RossieMan wrote: »

the question you always need to ask is could they hire someone fresh to do all the jobs you do? the answer is more often than not yes. Be happy you have a job, its not so easy to hold onto one for that long.

Yeah actually another point would be if OP thinks the company would go for a jobs bridge option. The part-time senior could train a jobs bridge slave and they'd be expected to do 40 hour week for €50. If the company gave OP €20 extra per month for approx 20 extra hours then it's probably an indication of the companies staff policy.

Definitely look for other jobs and don't give indication to current job you are. See if any opportunities arise. Don't leave a job without getting a replacement first. Especially in this climate.

DeltaWhite

God OP, your situation sounds exactly like mine, except I'm here 5 years. Promised year after year that I would get a pay rise. It never happens, but more work comes along. I'm doing a completely different job than what I was hired for and every single time I go in and ask if a payrise is on the cards I get the "well, we've no money" - every time.

It is so frustrating but all you can do is ask. I'm just trying to find new employment because I know deep down that I will never get a raise where I am now (family company also) so ask and see what they say!

PauloConn

Put a business case down on paper, arrange a meeting with your employer. Get your points across clearly. Have a level of expectation built in as you don't want to come up with a figure off the top of your head, work out something and ye may end up either agreeing first time or maybe negotiating to something else.
Remember, its not a fight, its a discussion so try to keep that perspective.

Best of luck

ghogie91

Getting walked on but they done have to give you a pay rise, I dont think you are ever 'entitled' to a pay rise.

Lyla Mae

RossieMan wrote: »

the question you always need to ask is could they hire someone fresh to do all the jobs you do? the answer is more often than not yes. Be happy you have a job, its not so easy to hold onto one for that long.

I do not think someone can just come in and fill my job so easily, there is so many other things not included in my post.

I always pitch in when there is staff on holidays doing extra jobs just to help out, it is just the way I am maybe my own fault I know for a fact another person coming in to my roll will not do half i do as it is not part of their job roll.

For eg other employees in the office arrive to start work rarely on time or bang on the nose they are due to start and bang on the button they are due to leave something I wish I had the luxury of doing. Every person is different how they treat a job I guess.

Delta White, I think it is harder when it is family you are just expected to pitch in and do all you can and more, I have got the we have no money before when I was unhappy about the later time to finish work but got it in the end, I know the amount of sales a day etc I know that they can well afford a slight pay rise for me, I am not looking for mega bucks just a little respect and gratitude for my work and work ethic.

P_1

Get it all down on paper like you'd draw up a tender for a sales pitch, mention what you bring to the company and how it is cost effective to do so.

Have two figures in your head. Your 'ideal' one and the one you'd be willing to settle for and try to land something in between.

secondrowgal

I am an employer and it never ceases to amaze me how some other employers can treat their staff so shabbily! I know that everyone's and every business' circumstances are different, but if you have an employee for EIGHT years and you've only given them a €20 pay rise in that time, yet their remit has expanded to such a degree, then that's just disgusting behaviour!

Even if I can't/couldn't give a pay rise or when pay was cut (for instance a few years ago when the recession hit in big time), I tried to give a couple of Friday afternoons off, off the cuff, etc., as a "thank you" instead of pay rises, etc. Of course, not possible in every business, but each business surely has something they could "give". Consequently, I (hope) have a happy workplace and a low staff turnover, which is very important in my particular area.

OP - did they give you any additional holidays, or other bonuses/"thank you"s?

Lyla Mae

Hi secondrowgal,

no extra holiday, bonus or thanks yous....

No afternoons off, nothing, to be honest they arent the best for staff thank you's, no staff parties, never buy lunch or anything like that.

All they do is push for more work and expect to give nothing in return...

secondrowgal

Lyla Mae wrote: »

Hi secondrowgal,

no extra holiday, bonus or thanks yous....

No afternoons off, nothing, to be honest they arent the best for staff thank you's, no staff parties, never buy lunch or anything like that.

All they do is push for more work and expect to give nothing in return...

Well, lady, I would say dust off the CV and hit the high road. If you have willingly taken on all that extra work and stay longer, etc. I would say that you are the kind of employee that any employer would be glad to have!

bucketybuck

secondrowgal wrote: »

I am an employer and it never ceases to amaze me how some other employers can treat their staff so shabbily!

It happens because people let it happen.

I'm sorry OP, but if you don't ask you won't get, there aren't many small business employers going to hand out pay raises without being asked for them. You certainly aren't entitled to one anyway.

You have bargaining power, so use it.

Mrs OBumble

You are not "entitled" - unless you are being paid minimum wage, and that is increased.

An increase may be justified, although this depends on the current state of the job market: 8 years ago was 2006, there are a lot more unemployed now than there were then, and wages have dropped. so if you have maintianed your salary without taking a paycut in that time, you have done well. Also, we have no idea whether your pay rate was high for the market when you started the job.

All you can really do is look around, and see how much you would get paid for doing a similar job elsewhere. You need to get a specific job offer, not just look at ads. And then discuss this with your manager.

Lyla Mae

Thanks for all the replies guys.

PauloConn

How did it go in work? Did you draw up the proposal?

Lyla Mae

Have drawn up a proposal and still plucking up the courage to hand it in.... I am on 2 minds what to do....

PauloConn

Just remember its a purely business request. You make the terms, the worst they can say is no. But if you put it the way you did in the original post you will be fine.

Lyla Mae

PauloConn wrote: »

Just remember its a purely business request. You make the terms, the worst they can say is no. But if you put it the way you did in the original post you will be fine.

Ok thanks PauloConn, not really a confrontational person sure we will see how things go...

Cheers

Lyla Mae

Ok so, I never did talk about a pay increase as it is a family business I just let it lie.....

UNTIL....

I found some info

Newcomer to the company (one of those hoppers that goes from job to job every 3 years) is on substantially more than me and does not have half the work or responsibiliy as I do....

Another is on a bit more than me but is on sales, answers phone when it rings and plays on his own phone for rest of the day.... rarely in on time and gets to leave 30 mins before me...

Now I will say it is a family business me being the bosses child, My dad is the Director but my brother is in charge of wages etc.... To say I am angry is an understatement, I am also upset for the lack of respect towards me.... I am a loyal employee here for 9 years and I know this newcomer will not be here in the next 3/4 years....

I am just dumbfounded... loyalty obviously means nothing or maybe I am the fools for believing the its tough out there.... moneys tight.... I am the fool for working my arse off.... doing all I can... helping out where I can and when needed and expecting nothing more

Sorry for any spelling errors etc as am in work...

I am definetly putting a proposal in writing tonight....



I just cant believe it....

Stheno

Lyla Mae wrote: »

Ok so, I never did talk about a pay increase as it is a family business I just let it lie.....

UNTIL....

I found some info

Newcomer to the company (one of those hoppers that goes from job to job every 3 years) is on substantially more than me and does not have half the work or responsibiliy as I do....

Another is on a bit more than me but is on sales, answers phone when it rings and plays on his own phone for rest of the day.... rarely in on time and gets to leave 30 mins before me...

Now I will say it is a family business me being the bosses child, My dad is the Director but my brother is in charge of wages etc.... To say I am angry is an understatement, I am also upset for the lack of respect towards me.... I am a loyal employee here for 9 years and I know this newcomer will not be here in the next 3/4 years....

I am just dumbfounded... loyalty obviously means nothing or maybe I am the fools for believing the its tough out there.... moneys tight.... I am the fool for working my arse off.... doing all I can... helping out where I can and when needed and expecting nothing more

Sorry for any spelling errors etc as am in work...

I am definetly putting a proposal in writing tonight....



I just cant believe it....

OP I don't mean to be harsh, but it's up to you to negotiate with your employer for the terms and conditions that are acceptable to you. You've let it go for eight years, then posted here two months ago about it, have done nothing since, and are now whinging that other people have done what you have not and are better recompensed.

Put in the proposal and be prepared to negotiate.

If you do nothing and come back in another two and a half months to complain, it's purely down to you.

If you sit down and talk with your employer, base it on you and your performance not on what everyone else gets.

Tails142

Do you think your dad or brother are going to sack you for asking for better pay?

Lyla Mae

Yes I know what you mean, but when you work for family things can be a little bit different, I hear / listen to times are tough, we havent the money etc etc that is why I havent spoken up before....

I requested more money last year when we decided to open later but was told we cant afford if you dont like it go.... Trying to speak with my employer ie my brother is very hard....

Lyla Mae

Tails142 wrote: »

Do you think your dad or brother are going to sack you for asking for better pay?

No I dont think they are but they will fill me with the usual times are tough we havent the money etc etc all I havent heard before.... I am crucial to the day to day running of this place so there is no way they will sack me....

loyatemu

Tails142 wrote: »

Do you think your dad or brother are going to sack you for asking for better pay?

probably not, but they probably don't think she's willing to quit over it either.

Is the company profitable, and as a family member do you get a cut of the profits? If I was working in a family business for 10 years I'd be asking to become a shareholder.

Lyla Mae

loyatemu wrote: »

probably not, but they probably don't think she's willing to quit over it either.

No they probably dont think I will.... but after what I have found out I am willing to walk as being this loyal means nothing, I have been fobbed off enough now...

Is the company profitable, and as a family member do you get a cut of the profits? If I was working in a family business for 10 years I'd be asking to become a shareholder.

Yes the company is profitable.... I see the total of sales each day... I know times are not tough... we are growing every month / year...

Lyla Mae

loyatemu wrote: »

probably not, but they probably don't think she's willing to quit over it either.

No they probably dont think I will.... but after what I have found out I am willing to walk as being this loyal means nothing, I have been fobbed off enough now...



Is the company profitable, and as a family member do you get a cut of the profits? If I was working in a family business for 10 years I'd be asking to become a shareholder.

Yes the company is profitable.... I see the total of sales each day... I know times are not tough... we are growing every month / year...

Lyla Mae

loyatemu wrote: »

probably not, but they probably don't think she's willing to quit over it either.


Is the company profitable, and as a family member do you get a cut of the profits? If I was working in a family business for 10 years I'd be asking to become a shareholder.

No they probably dont think I will.... but after what I have found out I am willing to walk as being this loyal means nothing, I have been fobbed off enough now...

Yes the company is profitable.... I see the total of sales each day... I know times are not tough... we are growing every month / year...

LeinsterDub

Lyla Mae wrote: »

Now I will say it is a family business me being the bosses child, My dad is the Director but my brother is in charge of wages etc.... To say I am angry is an understatement, I am also upset for the lack of respect towards me.... I am a loyal employee here for 9 years and I know this newcomer will not be here in the next 3/4 years....

What an insult they cleary don't respect your efforts after working in a family business for 8 years i'd expect to be a director not on the same wages as 8 years ago.

You're being used as doormat/lackey OP

Lyla Mae

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What an insult they cleary don't respect your efforts after working in a family business for 8 years i'd expect to be a director not on the same wages as 8 years ago.

You're being used as doormat/lackey OP

I know, that is what I have realised, like I have been so loyal, working 9 1/2 hour days, in early and leave last every day, usually after my finish time.... I feel so stupid for believing what they say.... I am more upset than angry now... how could they treat me like this...

Clearlier

Lyla Mae wrote: »

No they probably dont think I will.... but after what I have found out I am willing to walk as being this loyal means nothing, I have been fobbed off enough now...

Yes the company is profitable.... I see the total of sales each day... I know times are not tough... we are growing every month / year...

I can imagine that it's very much harder to negotiate when there's family involved. Much and all as you might be advised to take a professional/businesslike approach to negotiations there are personal relationships involved and they do make the situation trickier.

Assuming that you've already mentioned that someone doing less work with less responsibility is being paid more have you considered asking your brother/boss under what circumstances the business could afford a pay rise? It's kind of responding on the same level as he's answering you at but forcing him to get specific might break the dam which it sounds like he has erected when it comes to pay negotiations with you.

BTW - Growing sales does not necessarily equal growing profits but I guess you probably know that already.

Other point to note is that if they are paying themselves in a similar fashion to how they are paying you then they could well see it as reasonable to have different pay levels for family compared to 'outsiders'.

I don't envy your situation. Good luck whatever route you choose to go down.

Edit to add that if profitability is a genuine reason for not giving a pay rise you should be able to negotiate being included in the inner circle of decision making in how the business is run even if just as an observer.

ghogie91

Yes I would say that you are entitled to an a pay rise but you have to go the right way about it.

Did this change of role require any additional training? Were there any discussions of new aspects of your job with the current manager or did you just take up the work and continue on as normal?

A well worded letter or a represented meeting may be needed to outline the change in your daily work and the extra resource you are providing to the company.

I would be afraid that that increase of €20 in your wages, that from what I can make out was accepted by you, will count as the increase as it was never challenged.

Best of luck, I am all for people getting a fair pay for a fair days work.

DeltaWhite

I am gobsmacked that your own FAMILY are treating you like that! Literally lost for words. You poor thing OP, but seriously line up something else and when you hand in your notice I guarantee they would be shocked, they probably just expect you to stay because you're family. Wonder how quickly they would change their tune if they knew you were seriously leaving!

groovyg

Lyla Mae wrote: »

I know, that is what I have realised, like I have been so loyal, working 9 1/2 hour days, in early and leave last every day, usually after my finish time.... I feel so stupid for believing what they say.... I am more upset than angry now... how could they treat me like this...

Why aren't you looking for another job, its obvious your family know you won't do anything about it if they are not going to pay you better wages.

One of my friends parents owned a bar and all the family worked in it before they sold it off but it did her CV no favours as she was jack of all trades master of none. Also I don't think she got paid as such in terms of wages it was more cash in hand and it kept her going but it took her a long time to find her feet and be more independent of her family.

Do you feel a loyalty to your family to stay there? 8 years on the same pay!! if you are willing to put up with it then they are not going to increase your wages. You need to leave, even move away from your family and the business and get some experience elsewhere.

Deenie123

Leave.

Figure out where you want to be in 5 years' time and go do it. You're acting like your father's daughter looking for a pocket money increase. I get that you work hard, but so do lots of people. Those who get rewarded are those who actively go after it. Those staff you resent for being on more money than you for doing less? They're smart, they've figured out how to look after themselves. You're acting like a doormat.

Have a plan to leave, be actively seeking work elsewhere and chat with your dad (as your father, not your director) about your career plans and the training you want to take and how you plan to achieve your 5 year goal. Start acting like you're in the business of making money, rather than helping someone else to make money.

Oh and how did your brother get his position? Is he more qualified? Is he just more forceful? What has he got that you haven't got?

Sorry if I come across as harsh, OP, but what you've written shows you to be a doormat who has no get-up-and-go about you. You were on here ages ago getting good advice and you appear to have done nothing. Why should you get rewarded with extra money if you appear to be happy with where you are, or at least not likely to leave? If you don't even value yourself enough to demand fair employment well then why should they?

Lyla Mae

No Deenie you are not being harse, the reality is I have let them walk all over me for years.... I know I have, I know its my own fault.... but when you are working for family it is a lot harder to try an discuss things, as another poster said emotions get involved etc etc My brother is not an easy person to talk to believe me I have tried in the past just to be knocked down time and time again told we cant afford it blah blah blah and I have believed it til now....

I am taking action.... Yes I might have to walk but I am ok with that, I cant live like this anymore, as you said in resentment of others etc

I am really upset over this I have believed them and stood by them when they have filled me with bull****....

I am a doormat... I see that now...

Time to fight for what I want if not 2015 will be a very different year.... maybe even new beginnings a fresh start.

Thanks for the comments.

groovyg

Op have you gone to college, done any courses, qualifications etc. Is this job only work experience you have? I really hope you do start looking for other jobs, its good to move around and get experience working in different environments and things are not going to change for you if you continue to stay there. I just hope they don't hold it against you as I assume you will need them as a reference!

Lyla Mae

Yes I have gone to college, have qualifications etc
I have been here 8 / 9 years....

I guess I have been too loyal to 'family'

Really getting me down and I have let it get me down to long... give out about work etc etc then just continue on then things gets to you again... I just cant do it any more I am worth more than to be treated like this

Gerry T

Sorry haven't read the full tread, but its a simple formula. A company can pay you what they want within reason unless you have a union job and even at that they may try.
How do they decide what your worth, well they should see what other companies pay people for a similar role and if they want to keep employees then pay that plus some to help retention.
If you feel for what you do that your under paid then look else where for a job, then leave.
My advise would be to say your market value is €x and will they meet that, if they don't, then don't make treats but just go back to your job and starting looking for a new one, no drama.
But don't fall into the trap of comparing yourself to others in the same company, no telling why they get the package they do. But that type of comparison does lead to ill feelings and usually you will be the one feeling bad. It's all about your market value, what others are willing to pay you. Don't stay in a job where your not valued.

Deenie123

Hey, don't be too hard on yourself or on them in this situation. It's very hard to do business with friends let alone with family.

Look at it this way, you've had a reasonably stable job at a time when people were losing jobs left, right and centre. In that time you've gained considerable experience and contributed well. But the time has just come to fly the family business nest.

They've behaved as they have because they are trying to make a profit, so they (like any other business) will pay as little as they have to to retain their staff. Paying more than required just doesn't make sense.

The time has come for you to grow and move on, and maybe in the future you can return with more skills and experience and bring more to the business than you could have if you stayed. Try not to let this ruin your relationship with them. Go do your own thing, have space from each other and appreciate each other more for it

Lemming

As Deenie has said; leave. If I were in your shoes, and given your brothers past deeply blaise response to a previous request, I wouldn't even attempt to negotiate with them. Just get a better job, leave them to sink in the mire of their own making, and tell them why if they feel so inclined to ask why you're leaving. It's absolutely shocking that your own family have treated you with such absolute contempt, so I'd be inclined to not sugar-coat the truth either.

And whatever you do, DON'T accept a counter-offer. Unless it's for your dream job and you're being given the earth moon, and stars in writing, never ever ever accept a counter-offer from an employer. You've burned a bridge handing in your notice and it will forever remain at the back of an employers mind. If your brother is as miserable an employer as he sounds, it's a very easy step to go from "back of mind" to "malicious treatment".

groovyg

Lyla Mae wrote: »

Yes I have gone to college, have qualifications etc
I have been here 8 / 9 years....

I guess I have been too loyal to 'family'

Really getting me down and I have let it get me down to long... give out about work etc etc then just continue on then things gets to you again... I just cant do it any more I am worth more than to be treated like this

I think when you are in work place for so long you do end up doing other jobs and taking on more responsibilities with not necessarily getting more pay for it. Also in your case you feel a sense of loyalty because the business belongs to your family.

So you've got qualifications and 8 years work experience, time to update the CV and start looking for other work opportunities.
The longer you stay there, the more bitter and resentful you will become towards other staff who have less responsibilities than you but earning more.

Lyla Mae

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies and advice.

I have my letter wrote re my workload increase, working hours increased and request for a pay raise and a meeting.

I have my notes made and will conduct everything fairly, at the end of the day I know I am worth more and have just been too loyal and blind to see that they have fobbed me off with we cant afford it, go somewhere else etc. all because its family.

If it ends that they will not offer me a better package so be it everything happens for a reason.

C'est la Vie

jimmycrackcorm

Lyla Mae wrote:

I have my notes made and will conduct everything fairly, at the end of the day I know I am worth more and have just been too loyal and blind to see that they have fobbed me off with we cant afford it, go somewhere else etc. all because its family.

But how much will it cost them to replace you?
Working for family goes two ways, once they have seen your position, if they don't budge or make any serious offer then simply relax at your job, minimize your responsibility. At the end of the day you need to fight your corner and unless you are prepared to do that you'll be another eight years in the same position.

You don't have to go anywhere else, make it their problem to solve.

Lyla Mae

So I gave my letter, went to speak with my employer ( my brother ) yesterday and it didn’t go well.

As usual he got aggressive, putting me down and using bullying tactics.... It’s simple from the conversation yesterday he doesn’t value my work or me....

I have decided to look for a new job over the Christmas, hand in my notice when I find something... good few positions that appeal to me from the quick look I had last night.

Thank you for all the comments.

I am trying not to let it upset me and enjoy my Christmas and look to the future... this could be just what I need a fresh start, positive thinking.

Happy Christmas