Why aren't we in NATO?

better call saul

It's a con on the part of the government that we are 'neutral' with the US flying through Shannon, it's about time we joined NATO and fought off Russia and the rest of the world's terrorists, put our army to use as well instead of dossing around

Drakares

Not sure if trolling or just stupid

Guy:Incognito

Yeah, the missing piece in NATO's arsenal is Irelands fighters and aircraft carriers........

c_man

Cos we're not cnuts.

on the river

better call saul wrote: »

It's a con on the part of the government that we are 'neutral' with the US flying through Shannon, it's about time we joined NATO and fought off Russia and the rest of the world's terrorists, put our army to use as well instead of dossing around

Then one bomb from Russia were wiped out.
No thanks.
It's better been neutral.

Lapin

better call saul wrote: »

It's a con on the part of the government that we are 'neutral' with the US flying through Shannon, it's about time we joined NATO and fought off Russia and the rest of the world's terrorists, put our army to use as well instead of dossing around

I agree with everything said here apart from the last two words.

Neutrality is a cowardly pretence.

BMJD

better call saul wrote: »

It's a con on the part of the government that we are 'neutral' with the US flying through Shannon

Russia are welcome to use Shannon too so long as they buy a few Toblerones to keep the place open.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

There is almost no tangible benefit to the Irish people for joining NATO outside of those who serve in the defence forces. You also have to remember that those who are now in the defence forces signed up in the context that they would be joining an army that serves as a peace keeping force and not an army actively engaged in war, which is a major consideration that is overlooked.

The argument of whether we are truly neutral or not can be debated I think, but to blanketly state we are absolutely not neutral is incorrect. None of our soldiers are involved in active combat against anyone, we have not declared war on anyone and the soldiers we do have currently on peace missions are not seen as blatantly biased to either side by either side.

What threat from an attack perspective does Ireland face today? Seriously? I can think of three main ones and currently none of them seem realistic to be honest.
1. Dissident Unionists in the North
2. Britain (not really possible now but had the potential to happen in the 1970's)
3. Islamic extremists

Since the Good Friday Agreement 1 and absolutely 2 do not look like happening in any conceivable way.
So that leaves 3 as the only real plausible threat to our country. Will joining NATO increase or decrease the chances of an attack posed here? There's only one logical answer to that.

Any other threat posed to Ireland would be an EU wide problem and we would end up getting involved either way, but considering these threats are to the east, Russia/China/India, and the fact we are as far west as you can get in Europe, we are at the end of the line, so being in or out of NATO in one of these situations will mean absolutely nothing.

Our sovereignty is at a very low risk all things considered. We don't need to mess around with that in anyway in my opinion.

bb1234567

Russia have never done anything to us theres no reason for us to join an army to fight against them

Son Of A Vidic

Drakares wrote: »

Not sure if trolling or and just stupid

Fixed the typo there.

CrazyRabbit

Why would we want to join up with a bunch of warmonger's?

MRnotlob606

What a Stupid Idea to join a an irrelevant cold war club. We have never needed Nato and we won't need them in the near future either. They don't need us and we don't need them. I am Proud to live in a country that promotes peace, rather than bombing the **** out of some middle eastern nation on premise that they are securing "Freedom".

P_1

1 - We don't have the military hardware
2 - Money that could be spent on said hardware would be much better spent elsewhere

suicide_circus

Freedom isnt free.

Firefox11

on the river wrote: »

Then one bomb from Russia were wiped out.
No thanks.
It's better been neutral.

I think in a nuclear shooting war neutrality will mean squat. We are all f*****.

BMJD

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Why would we want to join up with a bunch of warmonger's?

To join the fight against apostrophe abuse!

Fratton Fred

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

What a Stupid Idea to join a an irrelevant cold war club. We have never needed Nato and we won't need them in the near future either. They don't need us and we don't need them. I am Proud to live in a country that promotes peace, rather than bombing the **** out of some middle eastern nation on premise that they are securing "Freedom".

Which middle eastern country did NATO bomb the **** out of?

Amirani

bb1234567 wrote: »

Russia have never done anything to us theres no reason for us to join an army to fight against them

They vetoed our UN membership. Bastards.

endacl

suicide_circus wrote: »

Freedom isnt free.

Better suited to a t shirt print than a discussion on the merits of joining an outdated military alliance.

Guy:Incognito

bb1234567 wrote: »

Russia have never done anything to us theres no reason for us to join an army to fight against them

As long as they only kill those smelly Ukrankians its ok yeah?


Just as well we stayed out of WW2, those lovely lads in the Hugo Boss suits never did anything to us, sure we'd have been bessies once we were next door neighbours.

Guy:Incognito

Diego Simeone wrote: »

They vetoed our UN membership. Bastards.

See we have them running scared, now is the time for Ireland to rise and take over Russia.

P_1 wrote: »

1 - We don't have the military hardware
2 - Money that could be spent on said hardware would be much better spent elsewhere

Like sending it to to some African nations whos military hardware need updating.

BMJD

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

See we have them running scared, now is the time for Ireland to rise and take over Russia.

Can we leave it till next week? The weather's too nice to be fighting.

ted1

better call saul wrote: »

It's a con on the part of the government that we are 'neutral' with the US flying through Shannon, it's about time we joined NATO and fought off Russia and the rest of the world's terrorists, put our army to use as well instead of dossing around

What terrorists are there?

flazio

Because our troops don't have death wishes.

Guy:Incognito

BMJD wrote: »

Can we leave it till next week? The weather's too nice to be fighting.

I hear the winter is a good time for an invasion.......

BMJD

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I hear the winter is a good time for an invasion.......

Grand so.

Guy:Incognito

BMJD wrote: »

Grand so.

Wait till Aldi have the fur lined wellies though, the normal ones get fierce cold.

The_Valeyard

We can barely run our schools and hospitals. Nevermind the mass armament needed for NATO.


Our neutrality is not cowardly. We do peace-keeping humanitarian work. Not trying to play world policeman.


Leave that for the big boys club. We're small, cute and cuddly. Let's stay that way

Augmerson

We are in the Partnership for Peace.

Guy:Incognito

The_Valeyard wrote: »

. Not trying to play world policeman.

No, we play world Garda Siochana.

Augmerson wrote: »

We are in the Partnership for Peace.

That sounds like a hippy camp.

pablomakaveli

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

What threat from an attack perspective does Ireland face today? Seriously? I can think of three main ones and currently none of them seem realistic to be honest.
1. Dissident Unionists in the North
2. Britain (not really possible now but had the potential to happen in the 1970's)
3. Islamic extremists

You've left out the threat from dissident republicans which is a realistic threat and probably more of a threat to the state than those you've listed.

Republican gunmen have proven there willing to shoot the Gardai and members of the DF in the past so no reason why that wont happen again.

Augmerson

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No, we play world Garda Siochana.



That sounds like a hippy camp.

It's a NATO affiliated organization or something, for co-operation. It was setup after the fall of the Iron Curtain so NATO could make inroads to Eastern Europe. Poland and the Baltic states went from PfP to full NATO membership. I think the rest of Eastern Europe is in this organization too.

Eramen

Ireland may soon be a part of Nato. Last weekend our govt officials attended the Nato summit in Wales, which I think was the first time we attended in a capacity of a partner.

Considering that at least one of the major political parties in this country have a policy of joining the alliance, I'd certainly be careful what you wish for.. If we did join, Ireland would simply be used as a forward US airbase, possibly containing an element of nuclear bombers (like in UK and Germany). This would make us a priority target.

I suspect that Ireland will sleepwalk into any future European/global conflict, which is seeming ever more likely as US/Nato project military power into Eastern Europe and the near East, building bases and planting forward tactical nukes for a first strike capacity against Russia.

Of course Russia won't take all of the above lying down, which is why the Ukrainian civil war is happening, but I doubt our politicians (and perhaps even Joe public) have the ability to make the smart move and not join that alliance, which is increasingly an offensive one monopolised by the US with each passing day.

c_man

We are in the Partnership for Peace.

So's Russia :pac:

Eramen wrote: »

Considering that at least one of the major political parties in this country have a policy of joining the alliance

No they don't. Who?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

pablomakaveli wrote: »

You've left out the threat from dissident republicans which is a realistic threat and probably more of a threat to the state than those you've listed.

Republican gunmen have proven there willing to shoot the Gardai and members of the DF in the past so no reason why that wont happen again.

I guess, but I can't see dissident Republicans blowing up a street full of people in Dublin. 1 and 2 on the list did, and if we join NATO then the possibility of number 3 doing it increases.

aidoh

better call saul wrote: »

It's a con on the part of the government that we are 'neutral' with the US flying through Shannon, it's about time we joined NATO and fought off Russia and the rest of the world's terrorists, put our army to use as well instead of dossing around

I assume you'd be the first to volunteer your life to fight some terrorists as well, yeah?

kingchess

great idea,we will have to increase to say 50,000 men.spend money on fighter jets and bombers,ooh,and maybe an aircraft carrier and some big navy boats,and we could put the command deep underground in case of nuclear attack-I reckon the bog of allen,it would be easy to dig down deep,I think we would have to commit 2.5% of our budget to it, but we could making savings in health and education.

sheesh

joining nato whats in it for us?

GaelMise

Eramen wrote: »

Considering that at least one of the major political parties in this country have a policy of joining the alliance, I'd certainly be careful what you wish for.. If we did join, Ireland would simply be used as a forward US airbase, possibly containing an element of nuclear bombers (like in UK and Germany). This would make us a priority target.

Which Party is this? Fine Gael did have a motion on this at their Ard Fheis, but it was rejected.

GaelMise

sheesh wrote: »

joining nato whats in it for us?

More military spending, being obliged to take on military hardeware we neither want or need and a general feeling that we are part of an oppressive warmongering alliance.

Brian?

on the river wrote: »

Then one bomb from Russia were wiped out.
No thanks.
It's better been neutral.

Funny you should say that. Because we were neutral during the Cold War both sides had Ireland targeted with nukes. The thinking being that Ireland was positioned too well for the other side to take in the event of WW3.

Nice eh?

dxhound2005

The_Valeyard wrote: »

We can barely run our schools and hospitals. Nevermind the mass armament needed for NATO.


Our neutrality is not cowardly. We do peace-keeping humanitarian work. Not trying to play world policeman.


Leave that for the big boys club. We're small, cute and cuddly. Let's stay that way

Big boys? Like Iceland with it's army of 210 soldiers? Or Luxembourg with 1057? And what are Norway doing in there? I thought they wanted to stay out of everything.

amorphous

Our airspace radar system is used by NATO so our airports are open for attack.

oppenheimer1

There is no real need for Ireland to join NATO since it enjoys the benefit of the security umbrella it provides without the costs of actual of membership.

Irelands isolated position in western Europe means that the only nations that could conceivably image are the UK France and maybe after next week Scotland. And since we are all partners in the EU and there is no real animosity between any of those states there is short to medium term that to Ireland's sovereignty from a foreign power.

faceman

bb1234567 wrote: »

Russia have never done anything to us theres no reason for us to join an army to fight against them

Yes they have. We expelled a Russian diplomat in 2011 after it emerged that 6 Irish identities had been stolen and used by Russian spies.

Infini

Wouldnt be any need for us to join NATO unless we were under threat from someone but considering our location as out of the way we wouldnt be needing it at all unless russia goes batshyte on everyone.

wendell borton

flazio wrote: »

Because our troops don't have death wishes.

They also went deaf from firing guns and claimed, imagine the pay out if one got a bullet.

renegademaster

P_1 wrote: »

1 - We don't have the military hardware
2 - Money that could be spent on said hardware would be much better spent elsewhere

like propping up 42% of the eu banking debt

flazio wrote: »

Because our troops don't have death wishes.

they're out in the golan region

faceman wrote: »

Yes they have. We expelled a Russian diplomat in 2011 after it emerged that 6 Irish identities had been stolen and used by Russian spies.

and so did Israel

MRnotlob606

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which middle eastern country did NATO bomb the **** out of?

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/09/afgh-s17.html

wendell borton

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/09/afgh-s17.html

Its actually a UN sanctioned operation the ISIF, headed by NATO. Ireland is a part of the ISIF.

BlibBlab

Isn't the only reason we didn't join because we didn't want to be in an alliance with the Brits and we tried to set up a separate alliance with the US instead, which was rejected.