Growing Energy Crops - All opinions welcome!

kneeelix

Hi Everyone,

I hope I have found the right thread. If not, maybe the "mods that be" could direct me?

I am not a farmer, nor am I from a farming background. I am from Dublin and I really don't know much about farming. I am working in UCD doing research on energy crops and to be honest the books only tell half the story. I think it would be really useful to talk to farmers about their experience and opinions on energy crops. This would just be for my own education really. I would be very grateful for opinions of energy crops like Short Rotation Coppice Willow and Miscanthus.

Would you grow them? If not, why you wouldn't grow them? Are there problems with them? Would you use them on your farm for fuel like wood chips or is it better to sell them?

From my perspective it seems the government have tried to create incentives for establishment but there is minimal uptake. I would be really interested to know why this is? It appears Ireland has a real advantage in growing these types of crops but there must be some reason why we aren't doing it?

All opinions positive or negative would be welcomed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Rob

blue5000

No market is the biggest problem. Gurteen ag college have about 70 acres of willow which they use themselves for heating.
Miscanthus was grown by a few ppl about 5-10 years ago. Market and weed control were 2 big problems. Try looking it up on UL website, fair bit of research done there.
It also costs a lot to plant, even with a 50%? grant. Even though there was a grant our generous govt charged VAT on planting cost, unless the farmer was registered for VAT. Forestry was a better option on marginal land. Farmers were sold a bit of a pup as far as miscanthus yields were concerned, to get good yields it needs top quality land and some form of nutrients. Oakpark in Co Carlow have one of the oldest stands in the country. Do a search on here and you'll find a few plssed off ppl.

_Brian

kneeelix wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

I hope I have found the right thread. If not, maybe the "mods that be" could direct me?

I am not a farmer, nor am I from a farming background. I am from Dublin and I really don't know much about farming. I am working in UCD doing research on energy crops and to be honest the books only tell half the story. I think it would be really useful to talk to farmers about their experience and opinions on energy crops. This would just be for my own education really. I would be very grateful for opinions of energy crops like Short Rotation Coppice Willow and Miscanthus.

Would you grow them? If not, why you wouldn't grow them? Are there problems with them? Would you use them on your farm for fuel like wood chips or is it better to sell them?

From my perspective it seems the government have tried to create incentives for establishment but there is minimal uptake. I would be really interested to know why this is? It appears Ireland has a real advantage in growing these types of crops but there must be some reason why we aren't doing it?

All opinions positive or negative would be welcomed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Rob

On marginal lands like here in Co. Cavan forestry seems to thrive better.. There are a number of plantations of willow but compared with some similar aged plantations in Co. Meath & Louth they are doing poorly and I'd imagine yield is much less..

Oldtree

This is the right place to talk to farmers and get their opinions.

The forestry sub forum may also yield some useful information for you.

Search Forestry for Willow
Search Forestry for Short Rotation
Search Forestry for Miscanthus
Search Forestry for Coppice

I had thought Miscanthus was a dead duck. I have planted a few acres of willow/ash/poplar and intend to plant more

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91498317&postcount=61

frazzledhome

Another crop would be sugar beet and maize for digesters. Lot going on it Europe if that's any help.

There's absolutely no market here. Was in Ger a few years ago. All sheds had solar panels for elec. farmer installed and sold power at proper rate out through meter. 10% RoI. Lip service is all we get here.

Greengrass1

Neighbour hete set up business to manufacturer mascantus intp bricks.
Gone down the swaney now.
There was 25 farmets in partnership together and didnt make any money from it

LK_Dave

Forget Miscanthus total failure unless you have top quality land an within 50 miles of a power plant.

Oldtree

I love the idea of medium sized local Biomass combined heat & power plants with associated anaerobic digesters all over the place (in the right place), supplied by local farmers.

http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Bioenergy/Bioenergy_Technologies/

darragh_haven

I'm involved in Anaerobic Digestion business as my full time job. The energy crops that are used for in our plants are grass silage, maize, energy beet, slurry etc.
the gas produced is burned in a CHP engine and the electricity produced is fed back into the national grid
The "refit" (renewable energy feed in tariff) in Ireland is about half that of Northern Ireland and about two-thirds that of England and Scotland. So, as far as I can see the supports for Irelands farmers to grow specialist crops for a renewable energy industry falls a way short of what is commercially vaiable, for farms to consider investing in the industry.

Oldtree

The feed in tariff is always going to be a problem holding this back.

Mad4simmental

I know one of the only contractors in the republic harvisting willow. As far as I can see its a complete waste of time at the moment. Cost is huge and makes pure sh!t of the machine harvisting it. Can't see them at it for much longer.

kneeelix

Wow, what a response. Thanks everyone. It seems there are so many influencing factors on this that I was unaware of. I will have some time keeping up!

I was under the impression that the government created incentives for farmers to grow, which some did and then never put incentives in place for the end users to create the demand. Would that be a fair assumption? I hadn't realised that VAT was put on top of the grant if you were not registered. Would all farmers not have to be registered or is this different in agriculture? I know I would be pi$$ed off too if I was given an expected yield and the reality was far from it. Who could blame people. Was it just that the research trials were not done right?

I think most people would probably agree that Ireland can grow trees to beat the band and probably twice as fast as the continent. For energy I suppose all we really need is the pulp wood rather than the prize wood. Do you think this would be better or offer more security to growers? My understanding with energy crops is that there is an annual yield after the initial establishment and then you have a regular income rather than clear fellings or thinnings every few years. Farming is a business so i'd imagine cash flow is quite important. do you think this is why these crops were promoted to promote a more regular income stream like other crops?

Thanks OldTree, I will certainly have a dig around in those searches, pardon the pun! Do you mind me asking why you intend to plant more? Have you better land or have your experiences been different?

I think digesters are fantastic. I visited this company in Belgium in Flanders and they have this beautiful pocket digester system for CHP. I think AD is similar in a lot of ways to the wood fuel energy crops in that it hasn't been supported in the right way.

I've also seen in Iowa in the US that farmers are forming their own community initiatives where they are part shareholders in say a local plant producing briquettes, pellets, ethanol for example. Do you think a similar approach is needed here to get things off the ground? Sorry to hear about your neighbour Greengrass1. I am really surprised given the demand for briquettes in Ireland and the UK. What was the reason for it turning belly up?

I agree completely with small local closed loop style systems. I don't even know if this is being done in Ireland OldTree? I know in Stoke in the UK they have sourced 400T of wood chips from local parks etc and use this to heat the council buildings with enough excess left over to sell as an income for the council. It's such a simple system yet for some reason it won't seem to work here. Is there anything that could be done?

Darragh Haven That is completely right. The REFIT tarif needs to be revised upwards. The Germans went to the extreme at 50c/kwh for solar and yes they got solar but they paid through the nose for it and collapsed their own solar manufacturing industry while doing it due to Chinese competition. We certainly need a feed in tariff equal at least to that of the UK. What level of tariff do you think would be needed to make it sustainable for a farmer?

Mad4simmental, is that mainly due to poor design of the machine or is the willow just tough to process.

It appears that there is a lot of negativity towards these crops which is understandable given the misinformation and experience of so many. Do you think this could change? If it was ever going to work in an ideal scenario, what would need to happen?

Sorry for such a large response, I really appreciate such a fantastic amount of feedback and interest.

F.D

For our biomass needs i think there is not enough forestry nor will it grow fast enough to supply the market for wood products, let alone have enough to use as fuel, plus once forestry is planted the land is deemed that way forever

so you would think short rotation coppice or energy crops is a great idea for farmers as its not as long term and can be changed if the market fails etc

problems i can see is its too long for a return on your investment
you would need to sell locally and not have a middle man, otherwise it would be no different to the beef sector
in reality farmers should be self sufficient in fuel, but you are cannot plant SRC in the corner of the field of you loose your sfp on this piece, as the land is unproductive, as far as i am aware
It was mentioned about harvesting willow etc and damaging machines, i reckon it needs to be harvested in rods and let dry naturally and then chip to reduce costs
this adds more time to getting your return

I think the nail was hit on the head earlier, there should be more effort to set up more local power generation and put small scale solar and wind turbines in farmers yards to produce electricity, then every one can have a bit of additional income coming in to the farm and less of these big scale plants and turbines that are hard to get permission and the locals dont like in the first place

Another thing for consideration is if the government make more grants available to houses to get them Insulated better, install better windows doors, more efficient solid fuel stoves/boilers etc, the fuel useage will be reduced too

ganmo

Where I am would be perfect for a wind farm, with a valley funnelling the wind up to us. BUT it happens to be in dunlaoighre and what they have on their development plan about wind power 'yes it's good but we like the look of the mountains' (paraphrased)

Those small scale operations would be great only esb don't won't to pay people for the energy they create

Birdnuts

ganmo wrote: »

Where I am would be perfect for a wind farm, with a valley funnelling the wind up to us. BUT it happens to be in dunlaoighre and what they have on their development plan about wind power 'yes it's good but we like the look of the mountains' (paraphrased)

Those small scale operations would be great only esb don't won't to pay people for the energy they create

Wind power isn't a reliable source of power for the grid, has to be backed up by conventional power sources and requires an extensive/expensive pylon network. All this has to be paid for by power users and is not exactly desireable eitheir in areas that depend on tourism. Large parts of Ireland are already covered in wind farms( East Kerry,Donegal etc.) and as can be seen by looking on Eirgrids website, they produce very little power in the current weather conditions. Countries like Germany that have invested heavily in wind have ended up with high energy costs and little emmission savings. Indeed Germany is in the midst of a coal power plant building boom as wind is simply not delivering a secure energy supply. Both Spain and Austrialia have recently cut government supports for wind as costs were spirrallig out of control. Something we need to be aware of in this country too as we already have the 4th highest energy costs in the EU with the PSO levy that supports wind developers set to rise further over the coming years, assuming government policy continues to support it which is by no means guaranteed given whats happened in other countries

ganmo

Birdnuts wrote: »

Wind power isn't a reliable source of power for the grid, has to be backed up by conventional power sources and requires an extensive/expensive pylon network. All this has to be paid for by power users and is not exactly desireable eitheir in areas that depend on tourism. Large parts of Ireland are already covered in wind farms( East Kerry,Donegal etc.) and as can be seen by looking on Eirgrids website, they produce very little power in the current weather conditions. Countries like Germany that have invested heavily in wind have ended up with high energy costs and little emmission savings. Indeed Germany is in the midst of coal power plant building boom as wind is simply not delivering a secure energy supply. Both Spain and Austrialia have recently cut government supports for wind as costs were spirrallig out of control. Something we need to be aware of in this country too as we already have the 4th highest energy costs in the EU with the PSO levy that supports wind developers set to rise further over the coming years.

why not? I actually like the way they look
The site I was considering was within a reasonable distance of the existing grid but would of crossed coillte land.

Its very hard to find a renewable source of energy where the energy cost of building something is paid back over its lifetime

Birdnuts

ganmo wrote: »

why not? I actually like the way they look
The site I was considering was within a reasonable distance of the existing grid but would of crossed coillte land.

Its very hard to find a renewable source of energy where the energy cost of building something is paid back over its lifetime

Your entitled to your opinion but tourists come to rural Ireland to see a traditional rural landscape. Industrial wind farm/pylon sprawl does not fit into that picture as the link below suggests. If wind energy is simply adding to the publics energy costs and saving little in the way of emmissions then it makes no sense to develope it on the scale some suggest

http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/local-news/tipp-turbines-appalling-castle-owner-1-6260085

ganmo

the 'unspoilt scenery' argument is one that is trotted out regularly like when building a farm shed, it has to be green to 'blend in with the environment' yet you can build a house paint it white and shine disco lights on it all year round.

anyway getting back on topic i can't see many farmers trying specialised energy crops after what has happened up till now. where i see farmers involvement in energy crops is growing maize etc suitable for animal feed or included in a bio-digester

blue5000

Logistics is another problem. Biomass fuels are bulky, making it expensive to transport by road. If a power station has to produce 20~% of it's energy from renewables the stuff closest to the power station be it straw or forestry thinnings will be used up first.

DHP is the way to go, with waste heat going to heat a swimming pool, hospital or old folks' home.

Incineration only works if there is lot's of plastic in the rubbish, remove the plastic and there is no energy in it.

One of the problems with AD is land availability. Already in England land rent prices have risen so high within a 12 mile radius of AD plants to grow maize or beet that ordinary farmers (producing food) can't compete. The AD plants are heavily subsidised.

Good luck with your research, when a thick ignoramus like big phil can get com of agriculture job in Brussels, how can we persuade a politician to do anything positive for the renewable energy sector?

Oldtree

I am not doing it as a business, I am converting ex farmland over time using my own cuttings and seedlings to set up a ten year rotation to fuel the house heating and hot water sustainably and replace the current oil/electricity use. There has been no financial input into this other than my spare time. I am also planting an orchard.

You might like this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81821162

longgonesilver

Oldtree wrote: »

I am not doing it as a business, I am converting ex farmland over time using my own cuttings and seedlings to set up a ten year rotation to fuel the house heating and hot water sustainably and replace the current oil use. There has been no financial input into this other than my spare time. I am also planting an orchard.

You might like this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81821162

Does the land not have a value?

Birdnuts

ganmo wrote: »

the 'unspoilt scenery' argument is one that is trotted out regularly like when building a farm shed, it has to be green to 'blend in with the environment' yet you can build a house paint it white and shine disco lights on it all year round.

anyway getting back on topic i can't see many farmers trying specialised energy crops after what has happened up till now. where i see farmers involvement in energy crops is growing maize etc suitable for animal feed or included in a bio-digester

No doubt some of the modern housing in rural areas is pig ugly and should not have got planning. But at least it can be screened to some extent while a 180ft windfarm is another scale of visual pollution entirely.

Anyways getting back on topic myself, I think the whole area of energy from Agri-wastes need serious looking at. I saw a programme recently about a remote rural village in Uganda where local farmers collected cowpats for a digestor that powered the local village. Now if it can be done on that scale with such basic equipment I can't understand why we here in a modern Western country can't use the technolgy we have in this space to do something on at least a similar scale in relation to biogass from animal wastes. The advantages are many over other reneweables as mentioned above in terms of security of supply etc.

Oldtree

longgonesilver wrote: »

Does the land not have a value?

It is an inherited 30 acre small holding that is unviable for farming, mainly a woodland and limestone pavement, turloughs and a few fields. It has value but I would not sell it, but I have to try and make it work for me in some fashion. I could get 60 bales a year off it but that is not worth it after paying for the bales to get done and then tax, I could rent it but that too would be peanuts and the place wreaked (as in the past).

So if I can replace my spending on oil and some electricity for the house then that is the best value for me, maby up to €2000 per year. I am using my own grafts for the orchard and hope that may amount to something in time and am interested in bees too eventually.

I hope to pass on something self sustainable within the family as this land has been within the family for a long time.

[EDIT] it is not set up like forestry, mounding etc, and will not acidify the soil like sitka, so if in the future it is decided to return the fields to farmland then that is easily done.

grazeaway

darragh_haven wrote: »

I'm involved in Anaerobic Digestion business as my full time job. The energy crops that are used for in our plants are grass silage, maize, energy beet, slurry etc.
the gas produced is burned in a CHP engine and the electricity produced is fed back into the national grid
The "refit" (renewable energy feed in tariff) in Ireland is about half that of Northern Ireland and about two-thirds that of England and Scotland. So, as far as I can see the supports for Irelands farmers to grow specialist crops for a renewable energy industry falls a way short of what is commercially vaiable, for farms to consider investing in the industry.

Spot on darragh.

We a years behind on renewables compared to our eu neighbours. These units are worth a more serious look but the have to be able to compete with imports of oil.

If you ever fly into Munich you ll see every farm has solar panel on the roof a many of the farms have chp plants supplying to the grid and hit water to the local houses. That said they have a better climate for growing high energy crops like maize.

A few years ago there were a number of bio fuel plants starting up and selling the diesel but in order to make in profitable they needed an advantage over the likes of covential diesel, the government preferred to keep the duty levels the same on it so rather then looking to promote a home grown alternative.

Long term thinking in this country is not fashionable in places like lienster house. It reminds me of dessie o'malley in the 80's when Norway were offering us advice on how to plan for the potential for oil and gas off shore. Dessie told them he didn't need advice from communists! 30 years later and they have a trillion euro oil fund and we have ghost estates and some of the highest energy costs in Europe.

Markcheese

Birdnuts wrote: »

Your entitled to your opinion but tourists come to rural Ireland to see a traditional rural landscape. Industrial wind farm/pylon sprawl does not fit into that picture as the link below suggests. If wind energy is simply adding to the publics energy costs and saving little in the way of emmissions then it makes no sense to develope it on the scale some suggest


http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/local-news/tipp-turbines-appalling-castle-owner-1-6260085

That's why there's no tourists in west cork but the midlands is full of them...
Oh wait , I might have got that wrong! :-)
Anywho back to the issue, I don't think the small scale refit tariff should be too high , as they proved in Germany too high a tariff can distort the whole energy market , I've no problem with distorting the market for national strategic reasons (energy security,regional/rural development ect) but the tariff regime would have to be flexible to achieve the stated aim and not unexpected consequences... (like putting too much arable ground under energy crops

F.D

just thinking about what oldtree is doing maybe farmers should just focus on what make there house / business more sustainable and not go any bigger into it
or just sow 5 acres of willow or the eucalyptus and chop down an acre every year and sell the wood for a bit of extra income, wouldnt be too much work

5live

Birdnuts wrote: »

Wind power isn't a reliable source of power for the grid, has to be backed up by conventional power sources and requires an extensive/expensive pylon network. All this has to be paid for by power users and is not exactly desireable eitheir in areas that depend on tourism. Large parts of Ireland are already covered in wind farms( East Kerry,Donegal etc.) and as can be seen by looking on Eirgrids website, they produce very little power in the current weather conditions. Countries like Germany that have invested heavily in wind have ended up with high energy costs and little emmission savings. Indeed Germany is in the midst of a coal power plant building boom as wind is simply not delivering a secure energy supply. Both Spain and Austrialia have recently cut government supports for wind as costs were spirrallig out of control. Something we need to be aware of in this country too as we already have the 4th highest energy costs in the EU with the PSO levy that supports wind developers set to rise further over the coming years, assuming government policy continues to support it which is by no means guaranteed given whats happened in other countries

I think the coal plant boom is more to do with German plans to close all its nuclear reactors in the wake of the Fukiyama plant disaster.

Markcheese

5live wrote: »

I think the coal plant boom is more to do with German plans to close all its nuclear reactors in the wake of the Fukiyama plant disaster.

That and the world price of coal has gone down due to shale gas replacing coal in the us...and there's probably more reasons behind that ....
But I do think it would be great for Ireland to have a lot more biomass areas (not just for fuel security) ,on upland areas they tend to store rainfall reducing flash floods, on lowlands they can help on floodplains ,allowing them flood can save expensives flood defences . Carbon store and absorbtion,
Rural employment,wildlife reserve ect ect.
If the short ,medium and Long term benefits to the state could be costed effectively , then a fair and attractive subsidy for marginal or poorer land in appropriate areas could be worked out...