New Lane Layout at Groody Roundabout

angryInch

Anyone notice the new layout at the Groody Roundabout (since the roadworks where completed a few weeks ago)?

Under the new lane markings, when crossing from the Plassy Road to the L5173 (going straight though the roundabout from UL to the Tipperary road) you are meant to use the inside lane (in both directions).
This is the opposite to the normal roundabout convention that was in place before these road markings where added.

In the mornings and evening at peak traffic, drivers cannot see the road markings, and are using the outside lanes instead. Over the last few weeks I have seen this lead to multiple near-misses, as drivers in both lanes attempt to turn off at the same exit, and both drivers feel they are in the correct lane.

Surely its possible some sort of signage can be placed at this roundabout to indicate the correct lane that drivers should be in.
Really looks like its only a matter of time before there is a crash here, or some road-rage incident as both drivers turning off refuse to give way to the other.

Crazy stuff Limerick City Council!

I wrote to limerick council about this, wonder what they will get back with (if they get back at all).

Skuxx

I noticed alright the road markings indicate to use inside lane for going straight across, it's the same coming from Tipp side heading to UL! Be interested to hear if the council get back to you!

Comhrá

Also at the same roundabout, the speed ramp as one exits towards Castletroy, seems to be unduly severe. The first time I used the new exit, I hit the ramp a fierce thump and I wasn't speeding by any stretch of the imagination.

It seems that all the ramps at that roundabout have slightly different degrees of severity. Looks like there isn't any set angle for speed-ramps and no method of deciding on their severity. They're like snowflakes - no two are exactly alike.

MarkR

I did notice them last week, and had the same concerns in regard to the road markings. Did they change them again over the last day or so? They seemed to be gone when I passed Sunday.

johnmolloy554

tippman1 wrote: »

Also at the same roundabout, the speed ramp as one exits towards Castletroy, seems to be unduly severe. The first time I used the new exit, I hit the ramp a fierce thump and I wasn't speeding by any stretch of the imagination.

It seems that all the ramps at that roundabout have slightly different degrees of severity. Looks like there isn't any set angle for speed-ramps and no method of deciding on their severity. They're like snowflakes - no two are exactly alike.

As above - no regard given to the fact that the Dublin Road is one of the main entry / exit points to the City. The angle on some of the ramps is what you'd expect in a housing estate or outside a school to slow traffic to 15kph, this shouldn't be on a national route

thesimpsons

In addition to above, on the cycle track on the left side as u approach the roundabout from town side, the directional markings are opposite the norm. They indicate a 'cycle on the right' usage.

angryInch

Looks like they are going to revert back to what was there originally, here is what I received from the council:

Thank you for your recent correspondence with Limerick City & County Council / Limerick Smarter Travel.

We take great care to ensure that important matters such as this are properly managed and that all complaints / concerns are taken very seriously. I apologise for the inconvenience or distress this incident may have caused.

Your concerns has been recorded and discussions with our Consulting Engineer RPS Group, who designed and supervised this project has been reviewed. We will be modifying the current road markings / lane designation arrows to match what was there previously. This work is been carried out as I send this email.

I trust this will be acceptable to you.

Should you need any further clarification, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Cityslicker1

Surely a fly over pedestrian foot bridge to accommodate students would be more practical considering it being a major road into the city. Maybe too expensive though compared to speed bumps. What's with Limerick with all it's roundabouts.

bazz26

Should never have been a roundabout but there or up at the parkway imo, the junctions are simply too busy especially for pedestrians.

Berty

The engineer obviously hasn't a bean how to design lane designations. Look at the Coonagh roundabout. Coming from the old n18 and going right to the condell the right exit pool lane has been covered in chevrons forcing you to the left exit pool lane which is actually for the other orbital lane.

The idea of those two exits lanes is because it aids a free flow of traffic using both the inner and orbital lanes of the roundabout and merge safely whilst existing the roundabout like a zipper effect.

The same applies to the outbound on the ennis road. The left lane is now for the 3rd exit but in reality it is after 12pm on a clock so should have stayed as the right lane. I despair sometimes.

Don't talk to me about the height and inconsistency of the speed humps on the groody roundabout though.

Iranoutofideas

bazz26 wrote: »

Should never have been a roundabout but there or up at the parkway imo, the junctions are simply too busy especially for pedestrians.

Not to mention putting a pedestrian crossing right at the entrance to the roundabout. They're deathtraps.

Comhrá

Quote:
Thank you for your recent correspondence with Limerick City & County Council / Limerick Smarter Travel.

We take great care to ensure that important matters such as this are properly managed and that all complaints / concerns are taken very seriously. I apologise for the inconvenience or distress this incident may have caused.

Your concerns has been recorded and discussions with our Consulting Engineer RPS Group, who designed and supervised this project has been reviewed. We will be modifying the current road markings / lane designation arrows to match what was there previously. This work is been carried out as I send this email.

I trust this will be acceptable to you.

Should you need any further clarification, please do not hesitate to contact me.

The above hardly gives much reason for confidence in the ability or competence of the "Consulting Engineer RPS Group"

If they don't know how to lay out basic road markings for a roundabout and have to rely on feedback from a member of the public to correct their mistake, it's a shameful state of affairs.

Comhrá

By the way, could someone let me know,please, the name and address of whom I could write to in order to air my feelings about the over-sharp speed-ramps?

Thanks in anticipation.

mgbgt1978

Any councillor you like tippman.
Look up the traffic Engineer for Limerick city & county council....now that they have amalgamated you will probably get passed from one to the other.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/archive/traffic_management_guidelines_2003.pdf

...somewhere around page 108 are 'guidelines' for speed ramps/bumps. But there is no actual legal requirement in this country to keep them below a certain height etc.

Berty

The ramp on the outbound lanes by the maxol is perfect and smooth. Most others are freakin nuts. They will cause heavy breaking(crashes) and sumps being damaged.

wingnut

Another curiosity is the heading in the Dublin road towards town. The turn for Park Road has you in the right hand lane turning right or going straight, and the left hand lane for turning left further down the Pennywell road. A car turning right here will hold up all the traffic heading straight on, as a result many cars (myself included) will look out for cars looking to turn right and try and cut out / in before the turn for the Pennywell. Easy fix have the lane for straight on the left hand and have the right hand side as a fitler lane!

THE MOST annoying junction in Limerick for me has to be coming from Sexton Street/Lower Gerald Griffin street to Roches street. There is one lane clearly marked with a straight ahead arrow from Parnell street and two lanes pointed right down the two lanes of Roches street. 9 times out of 10 cars will take the lane CLEARLY marked straight ahead and then turn right down Roches Street. Am I the only one who finds this head wrecking!!

Berty

I've lost hope with the sexton street to roches street turn. The same goes for Henry street where the two right lanes have to find their way into the middle lane by the savoy without direction from arrows or signs.

I do like the park road turn because I like people who are annoying drivers get caught behind people turning right. It does annoy me when a car in front of you in the right lane only decided to indicate when the lights go green and you have to switch lanes or wait.

wingnut

Lol yeah, Park Road - sometimes you win sometimes you loose. The worst are the feckers who wait until the last minute to indicate. I'm no traffic planner but If I was laying out that road a lot man hours sitting behind right turning cars would have been saved.

Delphi91

Beer Baron wrote: »

The ramp on the outbound lanes by the maxol is perfect and smooth. Most others are freakin nuts. They will cause heavy breaking(crashes) and sumps being damaged.

Noticed this evening that the speed ramp as you exit the roundabout heading up the hill to Castletroy now has some of the tarmac gouged out of it - looks like sumps. chassis', etc are hitting it. Some major damage gonna be caused to cars.

MarkR

I'm in a standard focus, and I've to slow right down. I was behind a lowered passat the other day, and he nearly beached himself!

dougie-lampkin

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Any councillor you like tippman.
Look up the traffic Engineer for Limerick city & county council....now that they have amalgamated you will probably get passed from one to the other.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/archive/traffic_management_guidelines_2003.pdf

...somewhere around page 108 are 'guidelines' for speed ramps/bumps. But there is no actual legal requirement in this country to keep them below a certain height etc.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/si/0032.html

10 cm max height

Also worth noting in any complaints to the council:

3. Where a road authority proposes to provide or remove a bollard or ramp, the notice of the proposal required to be given pursuant to section 101 A (4) (a) of the Act shall be given by publication of the matters referred to in the said section 101 A (4) (a) in a daily newspaper circulating in the functional area of the road authority.

...

2. Where ramps are provided, they shall not be positioned—

( b ) on or within 30 metres of a pedestrian crossing,

( f ) at or within 8 metres of a junction or a 45° bend with an inner kerb radius of less than 50 metres,


4. Ramps shall not be provided on a roadway where the road concerned is—

( d ) a road on which an omnibus service operates.

Special Circumstances

angryInch wrote: »

Looks like they are going to revert back to what was there originally, here is what I received from the council:

They are back this morning. Inside lane of the roundabout to go straight on, ie use the right hand lane as you come toward the roundabout.

Although, at this stage you could almost say this IS the convention in Limerick - so many roundabouts use this non-standard-outside-of-Limerick configuration.

The ramps don't bother my car, but people accelerating to get onto the roundabout at busy times then almost immediately lamping on the brakes emergency stop style is bound to cause an accident.

The entrance to the roundabout from the "Conlans BMW" side has high grip surface just put down - tbh the whole roundabout needs this surface to facilitate the braking needed by passats etc to clear these ramps.

db

Beer Baron wrote: »

I've lost hope with the sexton street to roches street turn. The same goes for Henry street where the two right lanes have to find their way into the middle lane by the savoy without direction from arrows or signs.

The worst part about this whole section is that the lights aren't synchronised. Coming from Cathedral Place across the new street (Song St ???) down Sexton St and onto Roches St you get caught by every set of lights. I would have expected this to be the primary route through these junctions.

Miike

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/si/0032.html

10 cm max height

Also worth noting in any complaints to the council:

3. Where a road authority proposes to provide or remove a bollard or ramp, the notice of the proposal required to be given pursuant to section 101 A (4) (a) of the Act shall be given by publication of the matters referred to in the said section 101 A (4) (a) in a daily newspaper circulating in the functional area of the road authority.

...

2. Where ramps are provided, they shall not be positioned—

( b ) on or within 30 metres of a pedestrian crossing,

( f ) at or within 8 metres of a junction or a 45° bend with an inner kerb radius of less than 50 metres,


4. Ramps shall not be provided on a roadway where the road concerned is—

( d ) a road on which an omnibus service operates.

Seriously, I wouldn't consider them "ramps" they relate more to mountains than any speed ramp I've ever encountered!

In relation to their positioning has anyone contacted the city council?

Comhrá

I noticed another potential hazard while driving over these ramps yesterday. Having discovered how sharp they are and how much I had to slow down to negotiate them without causing damage to my car, I found that the traffic immediately behind me came dangerously close to me before braking suddenly.

These ramps might indeed have the unwanted effect of actually causing a rear-end collision, where unwitting drivers don't realise they need to slow so much, as well as causing damage to suspensions, shock absorbers, wheel-rims, tyres etc.

Berty

The pedestrian crossings have already being causing crashes so one will assume the heavy braking for the ramps will only make it worse.

The students years ago sprayed down their own white zebra crossing way further up the road(safer ) and the council cracked up removed it and then made them cross on a roundabout instead.

Sometimes you'd have to wonder.

Iwannahurl

What's wrong with pedestrian crossings on a roundabout?

In my experience of numerous European cities and towns they're the norm just about everywhere except Ireland.

thesimpsons

If you are in position to enter the roundabout and the crossing is in front of you, you wouldn't be approaching the roundabout at much speed as you'd be watching for traffic and the roundabout is highly visible in your direct line of sigh. but one one of the problems with ped crossings at roundabouts is in the situation where you enter the roundabout at 3 o'clock position and intend exiting at 12 o'clock. you enter the roundabout at an accelerating speed (even at a low speed) and checking for cars to your right, and the crossing is offset to your line of sight. straight away you could be braking for pedestrians. It can be hard enough when you know the road layout but in alot of occasions could be driving in unfamiliar area, there is no consistancy to roundabout lanes or crossings in Ireland and pedestrians often just step out without checking for traffic.

Iwannahurl

thesimpsons wrote: »

enter the roundabout at an accelerating speed (even at a low speed) and checking for cars to your right, and the crossing is offset to your line of sight. straight away you could be braking for pedestrians.

What's wrong with braking for pedestrians?

What you seem to be describing is a situation whereby vehicles enter a roundabout without slowing (or even accelerating as you suggest) and where the driver is only looking out for traffic coming from the right.

That should not be possible/acceptable.

The level of deflection should be sufficient to slow motorised traffic down to a speed that accommodates vulnerable road users, and drivers should be on the lookout for crossing pedestrians, including children, disabled people and older people who may be a bit slow on their feet.

There is absolutely no justification for having a roundabout in an urban environment where the design permits motorists to take "the racing driver's line" without slowing sufficiently and without due regard for pedestrians.

Special Circumstances

If the crossing is only safe for pedestrians with extreme speed bumps in place, perhaps an alternative should have been used?

Crossings at roundabouts are fine and all on quieter suburban roads with good visibility (plenty in limerick without good visibility though), but at bottle neck roundabouts on main arterial routes with 8 lanes in and 6 lanes out?
That roundabout is "who dares, wins" at peak time. Wait for the first rainy day... destruction derby.

bazz26

The problem is not motorists stopping as they approach the roundabouts but rather motorists already on the roundabout who are exiting having to brake/stop to allow pedestrians cross. The motorists behind them may not react in time and suddenly you have a knock on effect. The whole idea of a roundabout is to allow traffic on the roundabout to flow off the exits without causing a build up which is defeated and dangerous when you have pedestrian crossings right at the edge of them. The roundabout at the Shannon bridge/Dock Road is the exact same, too busy and dangerous for crossing pedestrians. In an ideal world it should work but this is not an ideal world.

Iwannahurl

bazz26 wrote: »

The problem is not motorists stopping as they approach the roundabouts but rather motorists already on the roundabout who are exiting having to brake/stop to allow pedestrians cross. The motorists behind them may not react in time and suddenly you have a knock on effect. The whole idea of a roundabout is to allow traffic on the roundabout to flow off the exits without causing a build up which is defeated and dangerous when you have pedestrian crossings right at the edge of them. The roundabout at the Shannon bridge/Dock Road is the exact same, too busy and dangerous for crossing pedestrians. In an ideal world it should work but this is not an ideal world.

It works fine in other EU cities and towns, so why not here?

Are Irish motorists particularly slow to react?

Popoutman

What is the name and address of the relevant person in the Co. Council that we can direct paper letters to, to voice our concerns about this abysmal construction on the Groody Roundabout?

They got the surface correct on the bike lane - it's now possible to ride a road bike without getting teeth jarred on the bike lanes as they are now smoother than the parallel road surface.

Of the 16 ramp interfaces on 8 ramps, only two of the road-ram interfaces appear to be correct for traffic. Two out of sixteen. Combine that with incorrect lane markings with missing signage for the UL and Groody Link road entrances, it's a nightmare for traffic that is already causing chaos and it will only get worse.

I know of at least one dead engine from a friend's parent knocking the sump plug out, from a normal unmodified passat. I'm aware of a lot of near misses on the roundabout due to people mis-laning.

For the cost, either the contractors made a really bad job of the traffic controls, or the engineers responsible for the contractor's brief need to be fired for incompetence. I don't see how else this was signed off on.

Popoutman

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It works fine in other EU cities and towns, so why not here?

Are Irish motorists particularly slow to react?

Other EU cities and towns do not have steep and abrupt ramps on roundabouts on very high traffic volume access routes to cities. It should work well enough on small roundabouts on single lane accesses and exits, but on a roundabout on a main arterial route with a total of 16 lanes of entrance and exit? It's madness and wouldn't be done on the Continent.

Iwannahurl

Other countries don't have Irish road engineers and "planners" working for them (I hope). My experience in Europe is that large high-speed multi-lane roundabouts are not features of urban and residential areas.

The Groody Roundabout is situated close to residential estates. Why would pedestrians not be expected to cross it?

Perhaps it cannot be rehabilitated, in which case maybe conversion to a signalised junction is the only option. Or perhaps separate infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists.

Of course the typical response of roads authorities in this country is to try to do such things on the cheap, with tick-box tokenism on the walking/cycling aspects.

PS: here's a roundabout in Galway with a total of 14 lanes. It's on an arterial route close to residential estates, schools, a hospital and a university. Old ladies can be seen every day trying to run across. Irish road engineers and "planners" again (the designers, that is, not the old ladies).

Comhrá

Letter sent in to the senior engineer today concerning the ramps. Wonder what sort of response I'll get?

Delphi91

Just wondering - are they speed ramps at all????

If you look at them again, all they are is a layer of tarmac designed to bring the road surface up to the level of the footpath, presumably for cyclists, etc crossing over. Curious why they couldn't have dipped down the footpath to the level of the road instead?

They certainly do have the effect of slowing down traffic, especially on the exit from the roundabout up towards Castletroy (haven't used the other exists yet). It's just a pity that they couldn't have the same incline on the exit as exists on the "ramp" just after Cosgraves Maxol station which is a gradual incline.

Delphi91

Iwannahurl wrote: »

...Perhaps it cannot be rehabilitated, in which case maybe conversion to a signalised junction is the only option...

It was originally a signalised junction back in the late 80's as was the roundabout at the Parkway.

um7y1h83ge06nx

This morning I was traveling towards this roundabout from Ballysimon road.

I think the arrows on the lane were scrubbed off but not sure if there were new arrows elsewhere.

Anyone see this?

Very confusing and dangerous roundabout.

zulutango

Delphi91 wrote: »

It was originally a signalised junction back in the late 80's as was the roundabout at the Parkway.

Both probably still should be. I would imagine that modern, smart traffic light systems can deal with traffic better than these roundabouts can?

Special Circumstances

zulutango wrote: »

Both probably still should be. I would imagine that modern, smart traffic light systems can deal with traffic better than these roundabouts can?

Depends on how smart the people that program them are...
Depends on how smart the people that specify the requirements are...

thesimpsons

Renata Rough Cuff wrote: »

This morning I was traveling towards this roundabout from Ballysimon road.

I think the arrows on the lane were scrubbed off but not sure if there were new arrows elsewhere.

Anyone see this?

Very confusing and dangerous roundabout.

didn't notice any difference there mon/tues this week anyway but there were guys in yellow hiviz vests there yesterday taking photos. the ramps are still as bad as ever, and coming from UL to Groody Road the road arrows still show opposite to what you'd normally expect on a roundabout. visitors only sometimes see this marking when traffic is busy

djsim101

Renata Rough Cuff wrote: »

This morning I was traveling towards this roundabout from Ballysimon road.

I think the arrows on the lane were scrubbed off but not sure if there were new arrows elsewhere.

Anyone see this?

Very confusing and dangerous roundabout.

Yep was there myself only an hour ago, directional arrows were wiped away, I wonder will they be changing it back to the way it was before. Very silly layout 1 out 3 cars were always on the wrong lane....

chicorytip

On the cycle path leading from the Groody roundabout to the University the directional arrows seem to have been reversed,whether by accident or design, indicating users to cycle on the right hand side rather than the left. Why is this?

Popoutman

chicorytip wrote: »

On the cycle path leading from the Groody roundabout to the University the directional arrows seem to have been reversed,whether by accident or design, indicating users to cycle on the right hand side rather than the left. Why is this?

My guess is that it wasn't specified in the contract or design, and that the drawings may have used "standard" engineering clip-art and that would have most likely have been suited to American or European side-of-the-road conventions and not the Irish conventions, and the contractor doesn't have either the imagination or cop-on to do an appropriate painting.

I have to say that the improved transitions on the roundabout between the standard road height and the raised pedestrian/bicycle crossings are a lot less severe than they were previously. There's a much less aggressive ramp and one that can be taken without being as likely to break sumps and suspensions. It's a marked improvement, though not all of the transitions are rectified yet. I wonder though did the contractor have to come back free-of-charge to repair the screwup, or were they paid again to resolve the issue.

As for the lane markings, I would hope that they get painted the intelligent way with the left hand lanes pointing left and straight-on, and the right hand lane pointing right-only.