single payment penalty

mix_up

anyone any experience or know anyone who was dealt a hefty penalty for being in breach of conditions

ive never moved animals in our out of my herd illegally , never came under suspicion with the department for anything like that

i do however own land in two different counties and this year simply grew silage and pitted it ( will sell it in the coming winter ) on one of the farms , a close relative of mine rents land to a local man , on the day i had an inspection , the mans cattle were on my land , the man in question employs a polish worker and the pole does the herding for him , he put the cattle by mistake into two of my fields ( they border the land he offically rents of my relative ) and as i had not been out at the farm for two weeks , they could have been in for a week for all i know

the officer of the department called me and apart from giving me four days to mow rushes off a boggy bit of ground ( i got it mowed off and the officer was satisfied with the result when he returned ) , he told me i had another mans cattle on my land

i made enquires with my relatives tennant and it was explained to me that the polish guy made a mistake , i rang the dept officer and apart from saying he was satisfied with the cleaned up boggy bit of land , he rubbished my explanation about the polish guy having made an error

a few days later i got a call from his superior in the department , he asked for evidence that i cut silage off the land , i have invoices from a local contractor so that should be fine , i cannot however prove to the department that the cattle were in due to a mistake my another mans employee , they appear to not take me at face value

i will contact the IFA to see if they can help me but in all seriousness

how likely is a complete cut in payments this year , are complete cuts usually only meted out to serial offenders or is it pretty common


prefer not to get posts about how i deserve to have the book thrown at me if possible

just like to know if anyone else has successfully mounted an appeal in similar circumstances


much obliged

rangler1

mix_up wrote: »

anyone any experience or know anyone who was dealt a hefty penalty for being in breach of conditions

ive never moved animals in our out of my herd illegally , never came under suspicion with the department for anything like that

i do however own land in two different counties and this year simply grew silage and pitted it ( will sell it in the coming winter ) on one of the farms , a close relative of mine rents land to a local man , on the day i had an inspection , the mans cattle were on my land , the man in question employs a polish worker and the pole does the herding for him , he put the cattle by mistake into two of my fields ( they border the land he offically rents of my relative ) and as i had not been out at the farm for two weeks , they could have been in for a week for all i know

the officer of the department called me and apart from giving me four days to mow rushes off a boggy bit of ground ( i got it mowed off and the officer was satisfied with the result when he returned ) , he told me i had another mans cattle on my land

i made enquires with my relatives tennant and it was explained to me that the polish guy made a mistake , i rang the dept officer and apart from saying he was satisfied with the cleaned up boggy bit of land , he rubbished my explanation about the polish guy having made an error

a few days later i got a call from his superior in the department , he asked for evidence that i cut silage off the land , i have invoices from a local contractor so that should be fine , i cannot however prove to the department that the cattle were in due to a mistake my another mans employee , they appear to not take me at face value

i will contact the IFA to see if they can help me but in all seriousness

how likely is a complete cut in payments this year , are complete cuts usually only meted out to serial offenders or is it pretty common


prefer not to get posts about how i deserve to have the book thrown at me if possible

just like to know if anyone else has successfully mounted an appeal in similar circumstances


much obliged

Appeal it anyway, but you should also sue the farmer that put the cattle out on your land for any losses'
The dept will judge as they find on the day.

frazzledhome

rangler1 wrote: »

Appeal it anyway, but you should also sue the farmer that put the cattle out on your land for any losses'
The dept will judge as they find on the day.

That's your answer if cattle owner doesn't fess up which is the honourable thing to do.

Have you discussed this with him? Would he sign an affidavit?
If not contact your solicitor.
This should be easily sorted if your telling whole story

mix_up

rangler1 wrote: »

Appeal it anyway, but you should also sue the farmer that put the cattle out on your land for any losses'
The dept will judge as they find on the day.

the farmer in question is a friend , his polish employee did it , there was no malice involved , appears the department just want to haul me over the coals

Farmer

FARMERS CHARTER AND ACTION PLAN 2009-2011

Not sure if there's a 2014 version

Of interest
Page 6

• Some events/occurrences (while in breach of SMRs) can be regarded as inadvertent, minor in nature, and capable of occurring in practical farm situations.

Page 13

Where the statutory management requirements or good agricultural and environmental conditions are not complied with at any time in a given calendar year and the noncompliance in question is the result of an act or omission directly attributable to the farmer who submitted the aid application in the calendar year concerned, the total amount of direct payments to be granted shall be reduced or cancelled. This shall also apply where, the noncompliance in question is the result of an act or omission directly attributable to the person to whom or from whom the agricultural land was transferred.

Unless you have all gates locked and patrol the farm like a watch dog, how can you prevent somebody effectively "breaking in" to your farm (albeit in error) and depositing their cattle there

rangler1

Farmer wrote: »

FARMERS CHARTER AND ACTION PLAN 2009-2011

Not sure if there's a 2014 version

Of interest
Page 6



Page 13


Unless you have all gates locked and patrol the farm like a watch dog, how can you prevent somebody effectively "breaking in" to your farm (albeit in error) and depositing their cattle there

Dept inspector must suspect that the cattle were on the farm a while, if he was looking for proof of cutting silage,
On most drystock farms, the most important work of the year is applying for the SFP and complying with it.
You'd know whether the cattle were on a field one night or one week, one night, accidental. one week, malice aforethought,

whelan2

rangler1 wrote: »

Dept inspector must suspect that the cattle were on the farm a while, if he was looking for proof of cutting silage,
On most drystock farms, the most important work of the year is applying for the SFP and complying with it.
You'd know whether the cattle were on a field one night or one week, one night, accidental. one week, malice aforethought,

often wondered is it by satelite or helicopter they see things, friend had an inspection last year as he had sprayed a field with round up around this time last year-with the intention of reseeding it- and didnt have it back in green cover with in the specified time:eek: , wonder how they knew. If they can see this type of thing i am sure they can see people spreading slurry/fertiliser in the closed period. Anyway i wave when a helicopter goes over:rolleyes:

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

ganmo

whelan2 wrote: »

often wondered is it by satelite or helicopter they see things, friend had an inspection last year as he had sprayed a field with round up around this time last year-with the intention of reseeding it- and didnt have it back in green cover with in the specified time:eek: , wonder how they knew. If they can see this type of thing i am sure they can see people spreading slurry/fertiliser in the closed period. Anyway i wave when a helicopter goes over:rolleyes:

Ya sure your not waving at LG?

whelan2

ganmo wrote: »

Ya sure your not waving at LG?

no i stick the fingers up at him:D

longgonesilver

Hi Did you ever have any official correspondence about the inspection? About the result of the inspection?
Were you ever notified that your payment was going to be cut? Or given a chance to appeal?
Remember according to the department inspector the farmer ALWAYS lies.

mix_up

longgonesilver wrote: »

Hi Did you ever have any official correspondence about the inspection? About the result of the inspection?
Were you ever notified that your payment was going to be cut? Or given a chance to appeal?
Remember according to the department inspector the farmer ALWAYS lies.

i spoke to the department today as i was asked to hand in evidence to show i made silage off the farm this year rather than do nothing with it so i rang today to say an invoice from contractor would be left in today

i also rang IFA , they told me to not send in any explanation ( why cattle were in ) until it was established what kind of penalty is being imposed ( keep my powder dry so to speak ) , same ifa man also said if its a 100% cut , appeal is unlikely to be successfull , in that case im wondering if there is anything to loose by sending in a letter prior to a penalty being imposed

the same evidence is often put forward in an appeals case when it comes to criminal matters , its just the person examining the evidence is usually a different ajudicator

the department man asked me to put it in writing what happened with the cattle so im strongly considering doing so

blue5000

The big problem with this is we are all guilty in the eyes of the dept. If it was a court of law we would be assumed innocent until proven guilty. Have you a planner involved OP?

Might be worthwhile emailing Aisling Meehan who writes about the legal stuff in the journal, ask her does she know a good agriculture solicitor.

Sheep breeder

on the day of inspection did you get a white sheet a notice form of non compliance, if you did this will tell you what is wrong, as for the proof of farming the land cutting silage, spreading fert etc the quicker you sent them in the better,
a armchair farmer near us last year had an inspection and was requested the same as you for the inputs to the crops and he was trying to get the merchant and contractors to give him paperwork for the land he was supposedly farming, only one problem he had the land set to three other fellas whose tillage crops and cattle were on the land on the day.result he lost his 45,000 payment and deserved so as he was bragging before the inspection how he had not farmed since 2007 and had three fools farming his land at top rent and any body farming was gob.
as for the cattle on your land the quicker you reply the better as they will not wait on you, and you have the appeals in portlaoise to go to after the local office level, as for going the road of the farmers rag and solicitor that cost money.
if the cattle broke in no problem to hide from, if they were there before and after the day of inspection then you have a problem as they will revisit to check if the cattle are still there.
if it was me a would ring the dept local office and look for the guy that was with you and see what he has done and what he intends to do, as most of these guys are farming themselves and know a genuine fellow when they meet him and have met every sort of fella and can read a farmer like a book in minutes.

mix_up

Sheep breeder wrote: »

on the day of inspection did you get a white sheet a notice form of non compliance, if you did this will tell you what is wrong, as for the proof of farming the land cutting silage, spreading fert etc the quicker you sent them in the better,
a armchair farmer near us last year had an inspection and was requested the same as you for the inputs to the crops and he was trying to get the merchant and contractors to give him paperwork for the land he was supposedly farming, only one problem he had the land set to three other fellas whose tillage crops and cattle were on the land on the day.result he lost his 45,000 payment and deserved so as he was bragging before the inspection how he had not farmed since 2007 and had three fools farming his land at top rent and any body farming was gob.
as for the cattle on your land the quicker you reply the better as they will not wait on you, and you have the appeals in portlaoise to go to after the local office level, as for going the road of the farmers rag and solicitor that cost money.
if the cattle broke in no problem to hide from, if they were there before and after the day of inspection then you have a problem as they will revisit to check if the cattle are still there.
if it was me a would ring the dept local office and look for the guy that was with you and see what he has done and what he intends to do, as most of these guys are farming themselves and know a genuine fellow when they meet him and have met every sort of fella and can read a farmer like a book in minutes.

spoke to the inspector who saw the cattle , he rubbished my explanation , his superior was much less dismissive , this same man requested invoices to show silage was cut , he did however say he has to report to his boss

the guy who visited the farm is a very dour charechter , i said it was regrettable that the department were unwilling to take me at face value , not sure what point there is in contacting him again tbh , he reported me to his superior and his superior contacted me direct so hard to see what point there is in dealing with a lowly field officer at this stage , the guys up the chain are now in the loop

the IFA man i spoke to today said its rare enough for someone to face a 100% cut but tbh , this particular ifa man is only average

rangler1

mix_up wrote: »

spoke to the inspector who saw the cattle , he rubbished my explanation , his superior was much less dismissive , this same man requested invoices to show silage was cut , he did however say he has to report to his boss

the guy who visited the farm is a very dour charechter , i said it was regrettable that the department were unwilling to take me at face value , not sure what point there is in contacting him again tbh , he reported me to his superior and his superior contacted me direct so hard to see what point there is in dealing with a lowly field officer at this stage , the guys up the chain are now in the loop

the IFA man i spoke to today said its rare enough for someone to face a 100% cut but tbh , this particular ifa man is only average

It'll be hard to prove, even the silage invoices only prove you got silage cut somewhere, There has to be a line of long grass around the ditches to show the track of the mower.
I'd still recommend going back to the farmer that caused the penalty, he can't expect you to take the hit

mix_up

rangler1 wrote: »

It'll be hard to prove, even the silage invoices only prove you got silage cut somewhere, There has to be a line of long grass around the ditches to show the track of the mower.
I'd still recommend going back to the farmer that caused the penalty, he can't expect you to take the hit

the silage was cut on my land and is pitted in my yard , there is no issue with the silage

i suspect the department man suspects these cattle have been in all the time and hence wants proof i was using the land to grow silage

greysides

Is there a source of drinking water in the fields? If not, it might support your case.

Sheep breeder

You say you cut silage on the land and how long after was the guy out to inspect and were you with him on the day he walked the land and the other thing have you stock your self to graze this land.
The guy that done the inspection is the one that writes the report and it's his findings his boss goes on and as you say the lowly field officer is the one that makes the decision and his boss stands over it and he is the important one to keep on side. If the cattle were only in a day or two then there should be no problem and if they were in say six weeks hard to defend that

mix_up

Sheep breeder wrote: »

You say you cut silage on the land and how long after was the guy out to inspect and were you with him on the day he walked the land and the other thing have you stock your self to graze this land.
The guy that done the inspection is the one that writes the report and it's his findings his boss goes on and as you say the lowly field officer is the one that makes the decision and his boss stands over it and he is the important one to keep on side. If the cattle were only in a day or two then there should be no problem and if they were in say six weeks hard to defend that

if the inspector who visited the farm is the only opinion that counts , it seems odd that i got a call from someone else in the department who requested evidence i was cutting silage , he also requested a written explanation about trespassing cattle

i rang the inspector and he wouldnt entertain my explanation , i guess he can be as inflexible as he chooses so ive little option but to try and appeal to his superiors sense of fair play