Common Practice - Bank Statements?

ec18

Hi,

Is it common practice for letting agents to ask for months of full bank statements? It seems a bit overkill for a lease?

snubbleste

No.

ec18

snubbleste wrote: »

No.

to which part?

MouseTail

ec18 wrote: »

to which part?

You only asked one question, is it common practice.

fartyarse

I never had to before but when I moved into my current apartment, four months ago, the letting agency insisted that I provide them.

It was either hand them over or pass up the opportunity to rent a lovely apartment in South County Dublin for a relatively reasonable price.

ec18

hmmmm....thanks....previously I've only had to provide salaried reference letters from work...

handlemaster

when a landlord gets stung by a tenant you can't blame him/her looking for extra confirmation that you can pay.

murphaph

In Germany a landlord doesn't need to see bank statements except in rare cases. This is because here they have a proper credit rating system that issues people with % scores. Landlords won't take anyone with a poor credit rating. In addition, it is generally requested to provide a statement from the previous landlord that no rent is outstanding (mietschuldenfreiheitsbescheinigung). Landlords won't issue them to tenants who owe them money obviously.

When such systems are absent, as in Ireland, landlords must protect themselves some other way. Bank statements are a really useful indicator of at least raw ability to pay. If, for example, the applicant had no salary on his bank statement, it would raise eyebrows.

john.han

In my opinion it's complete overkill, they could just ask to see a payslip but a work reference should be enough, complete invasion of privacy, not as if they're applying for a mortgage.

handlemaster

john.han wrote: »

In my opinion it's complete overkill, they could just ask to see a payslip but a work reference should be enough, complete invasion of privacy, not as if they're applying for a mortgage.

When you lease a property to a stranger you will change your opinion

usernamegoes

Has the data protection commissioner made any finding or given any advice on this I wonder.

I sounds like it could run afoul of principle 6 of the data protection laws i.e. ensure that it is adequate, relevant and not excessive. Usually this is interpreted conservatively.

Would be interested to have a ruling.

shruikan2553

In Dublin it is not unheard of. I find it to be over the top and would pass if I had another option but there aren't many options in Dublin

dudara

We've recently been in the rental market, but no one asked us to provide payslip/salary details. We did come with employers references and an excellent reference from our previous landlord.

I know it is a common practice, but I would have politely refused any such request. My salary is a private matter between my employer and I. There are landlords and agents out there who don't seek it and I would have been happy to wait to find one who didn't request it.

ec18

Yeah I'm not particularly comfortable with handing over two months of financial transactions for a lease. I understand for a mortgage where the bank is giving you a large sum of money and wants to be paid back but for a one year lease it's seems overkill

murphaph

ec18 wrote: »

Yeah I'm not particularly comfortable with handing over two months of financial transactions for a lease. I understand for a mortgage where the bank is giving you a large sum of money and wants to be paid back but for a one year lease it's seems overkill

It's not about the lease. It's about weeding out potentially disastrous tenants because the state is completely ineffective in dealing with delinquent ones. If there was some register of landlords and tenants with reviews like eBay then nobody would need bank statements.

usernamegoes

murphaph wrote: »

It's not about the lease. It's about weeding out potentially disastrous tenants because the state is completely ineffective in dealing with delinquent ones. If there was some register of landlords and tenants with reviews like eBay then nobody would need bank statements.

Could you give some examples about what you're looking for on a statement? Salary - of course, payments to previous landlord; what else? Assuming these are addressed in references.

Regular visits to a GP and hospital? Paddy Power? What kind of things?

handlemaster

Proof that rent has been paid at regular intervals. Also salary amount

usernamegoes

handlemaster wrote: »

Proof that rent has been paid at regular intervals. Also salary amount

That's fair enough, why can't that be addressed in a reference? If not can everything else on the statement be redacted?

murphaph

usernamegoes wrote: »

Could you give some examples about what you're looking for on a statement? Salary - of course, payments to previous landlord; what else? Assuming these are addressed in references.

Regular visits to a GP and hospital? Paddy Power? What kind of things?

Salary and rent paid. Rest can be blacked out.

shruikan2553

So a letter from an employer saying that they can afford the rent and a reference from a landlord do the same job.

dudara

In our reference, our current landlord stated that we had paid the rent on time, every month, for the duration of our tenancy. He provided his phone number for contact. My employer stated that I was paid every month by credit transfer into my account.

It up to my employer if they want to disclose my salary to a third party. My contract doesn't allow me to do so.

MouseTail

dudara wrote: »

It up to my employer if they want to disclose my salary to a third party. My contract doesn't allow me to do so.

Really? That's a bizarre clause, what if you want a loan or mortgage?

murphaph

shruikan2553 wrote: »

So a letter from an employer saying that they can afford the rent and a reference from a landlord do the same job.

"Can afford the rent"....the employer cannot and will not make that call. Anyway, the least a prospective tenant of an expensive asset such as a house can do is prove they actually have an income stream big enough to cover the rent. If they aren't prepared to do that in a convincing way, I'll look for someone else.

The current landlord's reference is unfortunately worthless in Ireland. People will (albeit understandably) say mass to get rid of a delinquent tenant. References from previous landlords carry more weight, but are not current. A statement shows a regular rent level payment being made, which helps convince that the applicant is serious.

It's all academic anyway...if you don't want to provide statements to a landlord who asks for them then don't. Bring your business elsewhere.

murphaph

MouseTail wrote: »

Really? That's a bizarre clause, what if you want a loan or mortgage?

Indeed, that clause could cause no end of grief when seeking finance. I wouldn't agree to it in any contract I signed.

shruikan2553

murphaph wrote: »

"Can afford the rent"....the employer cannot and will not make that call. Anyway, the least a prospective tenant of an expensive asset such as a house can do is prove they actually have an income stream big enough to cover the rent. If they aren't prepared to do that in a convincing way, I'll look for someone else.

The current landlord's reference is unfortunately worthless in Ireland. People will (albeit understandably) say mass to get rid of a delinquent tenant. References from previous landlords carry more weight, but are not current. A statement shows a regular rent level payment being made, which helps convince that the applicant is serious.

It's all academic anyway...if you don't want to provide statements to a landlord who asks for them then don't. Bring your business elsewhere.

Fair enough, still seems pointless to me. A bank statement would be ridiculously easy to fake anyway.

murphaph

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Fair enough, still seems pointless to me. A bank statement would be ridiculously easy to fake anyway.

Don't agree that a bank statement is as easy to forge as an employer reference, especially if the employer is claimed to be a small operator who doesn't even have headed paper. A bank statement is printed on headed paper...unless the forger has access to some fairly high quality printer, it will not be that easy to reproduce the headed paper feel. A BoI statement has a tractor feed mark on its left edge (or something like that) and the entire reverse is printed with no margin with terms & conditions or whatnot. It would actually take some skill to forge such a statement and to make it look like it didn't come off your printer at home. I believe some banks even have a watermark in their statements...forging that will be practically impossible.

Would you be fooled by a forgery likely to be available to the average Joe? Remember master forgers have better things to do with their skills than fake bank statements for landlords

shruikan2553

murphaph wrote: »

Don't agree that a bank statement is as easy to forge as an employer reference, especially if the employer is claimed to be a small operator who doesn't even have headed paper. A bank statement is printed on headed paper...unless the forger has access to some fairly high quality printer, it will not be that easy to reproduce the headed paper feel. A BoI statement has a tractor feed mark on its left edge (or something like that) and the entire reverse is printed with no margin with terms & conditions or whatnot. It would actually take some skill to forge such a statement and to make it look like it didn't come off your printer at home. I believe some banks even have a watermark in their statements...forging that will be practically impossible.

Would you be fooled by a forgery likely to be available to the average Joe? Remember master forgers have better things to do with their skills than fake bank statements for landlords

I have needed bank statements for things but landlords want an original copy on header paper from the bank? You might as well keep their passport until the lease is up. Cant remember the last time I got a statement in the post but it was quite plain paper.

The_Morrigan

murphaph wrote: »

Don't agree that a bank statement is as easy to forge as an employer reference, especially if the employer is claimed to be a small operator who doesn't even have headed paper. A bank statement is printed on headed paper...unless the forger has access to some fairly high quality printer, it will not be that easy to reproduce the headed paper feel. A BoI statement has a tractor feed mark on its left edge (or something like that) and the entire reverse is printed with no margin with terms & conditions or whatnot. It would actually take some skill to forge such a statement and to make it look like it didn't come off your printer at home. I believe some banks even have a watermark in their statements...forging that will be practically impossible.

Would you be fooled by a forgery likely to be available to the average Joe? Remember master forgers have better things to do with their skills than fake bank statements for landlords

I haven't had an original bank statement in years...online banking means most statements are electronic these days and therefore easy to forge if they are to be printed on a standard printer at home.

murphaph

Fact is, banks themselves will often refuse such printouts when used as part of a mortgage application, for example. They will request originals from the bank. Tip: If you think you may need bank statements like this then cancel your e-Statements and let them send you real ones because requesting copy statements is ridiculously expensive.

The_Morrigan

murphaph wrote: »

Fact is, banks themselves will often refuse such printouts when used as part of a mortgage application, for example. They will request originals from the bank. Tip: If you think you may need bank statements like this then cancel your e-Statements and let them send you real ones because requesting copy statements is ridiculously expensive.

No they won't; I've had credit cards, overdrafts, personal loans & a mortgage approved on foot of electronic statements and e-bills. Electronic statements are accepted by the banks as it's their own service that they are pushing on their customers to cut admin costs off the bottom line. Even the revenue have electronic correspondence.
They are also even accepted by the likes of the social welfare, so if landlords are going to refuse them we've a problem on our hands.

murphaph

A quick check reveals that AIB will require at least one original statement in the 6 months statements when applying for a mortgage. I don't make the rules! I did say "often" and not "always". Perhaps you got lucky with the bank you applied to for your mortgage. I have read this several times on forums that folks have been requested to produce original statements.

Link to pdf

KBC the same:
Link

The_Morrigan

murphaph wrote: »

A quick check reveals that AIB will require at least one original statement in the 6 months statements when applying for a mortgage. I don't make the rules! I did say "often" and not "always". Perhaps you got lucky with the bank you applied to for your mortgage. I have read this several times on forums that folks have been requested to produce original statements.

Link to pdf

KBC the same:
Link

In fairness now Murphaph, there is a caveat on the AIB one, it is only applicable to non-AIB customers and KBC are new to the market so the assumption is that they are treating all loan applications as new customers and covering themselves under KYC procedures at the same time.

I've banked with BOI & PTSB and they have accepted electronic statements/e-bills for any lending application. In fact they have accepted the electronic correspondence from the savings/current accounts in the opposing/rival bank with no question.

murphaph

Obviously if you already bank with Acme Bank Limited then they will be able to check the authenticity of your statements directly as they have access to your account information, so they shouldn't really need statements at all.

KBC are not new to the mortgage lending market in Ireland by the way. They are new to the current account market. They've offered mortgages in Ireland for decades.

ec18

The months transactions that i've downloaded from BOI are in CSV format so no headed paper or branding even :S

The_Morrigan

ec18 wrote: »

The months transactions that i've downloaded from BOI are in CSV format so no headed paper or branding even :S

There is a statement section on 365 that has the header.

ec18

Just an update I provided redacted bank statements. Everything was blacked out bar what was relevant to my current apartment(Salary, rent, Utilities) but the landlord/letting agent has come back saying that they need to see the full transaction history for two months

indigo twist

ec18 wrote: »

Just an update I provided redacted bank statements. Everything was blacked out bar what was relevant to my current apartment(Salary, rent, Utilities) but the landlord/letting agent has come back saying that they need to see the full transaction history for two months

That is bull. It is none of their business whatsoever. Look elsewhere. It is NONE of their business what you do with the rest of your money. If I were in your position, I'd be writing a very strongly worded letter to that person, copying in every superviser/manager you can find, and ideally the homeowner if you have their email address. Outline how you are an ideal tenant, and explain why you won't deal with that particular agency again, and explain exactly why. Also mention the fact that you'll be blacklisting them to your acquaintances.

If, after you've paid your rent and bills, you choose to spend every last cent on hookers and booze - none of their business! So long as you're paying the rent and bills and keeping the house well.

I wouldn't rent from them because I've a feeling they'd probably want to inspect the property on a monthly basis or even more! Not worth the hassle.

ec18

indigo twist wrote: »

That is bull. It is none of their business whatsoever. Look elsewhere. It is NONE of their business what you do with the rest of your money. If I were in your position, I'd be writing a very strongly worded letter to that person, copying in every supervisor/manager you can find, and ideally the homeowner if you have their email address. Outline how you are an ideal tenant, and explain why you won't deal with that particular agency again, and explain exactly why. Also mention the fact that you'll be blacklisting them to your acquaintances.

If, after you've paid your rent and bills, you choose to spend every last cent on hookers and booze - none of their business! So long as you're paying the rent and bills and keeping the house well.

I wouldn't rent from them because I've a feeling they'd probably want to inspect the property on a monthly basis or even more! Not worth the hassle.

To be honest I'm not that bothered about the place anymore I'm just going to look elsewhere. It's not worth the hassle or effort

makeorbrake

indigo twist wrote:

That is bull. It is none of their business whatsoever. Look elsewhere. It is NONE of their business what you do with the rest of your money. If, after you've paid your rent and bills, you choose to spend every last cent on hookers and booze - none of their business! So long as you're paying the rent and bills and keeping the house well.

If you've spent cash on hookers and booze, nobody's remotely interested. However, if you've spent "every last cent" - on anything each month - be that hookers n booze or anything else, then that's very much relevant to a LL.


This is normal practice across the water - start getting used to it because it will become standard practice here eventually - regardless of your protests.

Taco Chips

makeorbrake wrote: »

If you've spent cash on hookers and booze, nobody's remotely interested. However, if you've spent "every last cent" - on anything each month - be that hookers n booze or anything else, then that's very much relevant to a LL.


This is normal practice across the water - start getting used to it because it will become standard practice here eventually - regardless of your protests.

It's a gross invasion of privacy. I would definitely refer to Data Protection Commission and refuse to deal with such an agency. Regardless of where it might be normal practice, that doesn't make it correct or sustainable.

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

This is normal practice across the water - start getting used to it because it will become standard practice here eventually - regardless of your protests.

If it is common it shouldn't be. An estate agent/LL has absolutely no business having any access at all to a persons private bank statements never mind requesting to see the entire statement not just the relevant bits (salary in and previous rent out).

Bank statements are a private and personal thing and shouldn't be just handed over to any old clown.

ec18

My issue is more of who I'm handing over bank statements to. In essence I am handing over some of my most private details to a private individual or company that is in no way regulated as to how they handle that data.

ec18

ec18 wrote: »

My issue is more of who I'm handing over bank statements to. In essence I am handing over some of my most private details to a private individual or company that is in no way regulated as to how they handle that data.

Yes of course, handing over a bank statement to another financial institution or similar which has clear guidelines in how to deal with private documents is of course fine (and necessary for different things). Handing it over to basically a random person on the street (which is all an LL or estate agent is) is a different matter entirely.

makeorbrake

Taco Chips wrote: »

Regardless of where it might be normal practice, that doesn't make it correct or sustainable.

Sound. And in a few years time, you can select from a non existant pool of properties that are available without producing bank statements.

I understand it's personal data. However, there is a reason why they are requesting it - and that reason is not to have a nose. I doubt they care what you spend your money on so long as they see you#re managing your finances and not living from week to week....ergo...there's less of a likelihood of you defaulting on your rent.


The other way round that is that an independent body holds deposits and also checks bank statements, etc. However, that's simply something that can't be considered whilst it would be an organisation like the prtb that would be doing it!

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

Sound. And in a few years time, you can select from a non existant pool of properties that are available without producing bank statements.

Avoiding rubbish like that is another thing to add to the list of why buying is far better than renting long term.

That said I'd be surprised if it takes off here as far too many people will refuse to give statements to random LL's, whats in a bank statement is none of their business.

Mikros

It sounds like a grossly disproportionate request for your personal data. The Data Protection Acts require that only the minimum necessary personal data should be sought and used to allow for the performance of the function to which it relates.

A bank statement can contain a huge amount of sensitive information - especially if you pay for a lot of things using a debit card or bank transfers. I would say things like payments related to your health, to your own personal beliefs (e.g. payments to religious and political organisations) and what you do for fun would be considered "sensitive personal data" under the law which gives you even more rights.

I would be referring it to the Data Protection Commissioner and refusing to deal with such a request.

makeorbrake

Mikros wrote: »

It sounds like a grossly disproportionate request for your personal data. The Data Protection Acts require that only the minimum necessary personal data should be sought and used to allow for the performance of the function to which it relates.

A bank statement can contain a huge amount of sensitive information - especially if you pay for a lot of things using a debit card or bank transfers. I would say things like payments related to your health, to your own personal beliefs (e.g. payments to religious and political organisations) and what you do for fun would be considered "sensitive personal data" under the law which gives you even more rights.

I would be referring it to the Data Protection Commissioner and refusing to deal with such a request.

No problem - then redact the bits that are not relevant. The whole purpose (and whether you like it or not, LLs have a purpose in requesting this info) is to determine if the prospective tenant is keeping his head above water. Redact the descriptions beside each transaction with the exception of salary/wages. For those that don't want to provide the running balance and salary details, then go and look at another property where this isn't a requirement....end of

Noah Shaggy Whimsy wrote:

That said I'd be surprised if it takes off here as far too many people will refuse to give statements to random LL's, whats in a bank statement is none of their business.

Well, it 'took off' in the UK and although not always the case, they are generally more progressive than we are with many things. You think that the brits just give away their data OR do they do so in this instance in the knowledge that its necessary i.e. theres a genuine purpose. Of course, we can continue to disregard that totally......

Mikros

makeorbrake wrote: »

No problem - then redact the bits that are not relevant. The whole purpose (and whether you like it or not, LLs have a purpose in requesting this info) is to determine if the prospective tenant is keeping his head above water. Redact the descriptions beside each transaction with the exception of salary/wages. For those that don't want to provide the running balance and salary details, then go and look at another property where this isn't a requirement....end of

I understand the purpose in looking for the information, and think a redacted statement is one compromise in the absence of any other way for a landlord to check tenants credit worthiness. But the OP already said the agent wouldn't accept a redacted statement. My post was in response to requesting a full statement - and in that regard I think they are outside the Data Protection Acts - IMO of course.

makeorbrake

Mikros wrote: »

But the OP already said the agent wouldn't accept a redacted statement. My post was in response to requesting a full statement - and in that regard I think they are outside the Data Protection Acts - IMO of course.

My bad - missed that. In that case, I agree - and think they are being unreasonable.

Tarzana

ec18 wrote: »

Just an update I provided redacted bank statements. Everything was blacked out bar what was relevant to my current apartment(Salary, rent, Utilities) but the landlord/letting agent has come back saying that they need to see the full transaction history for two months

Don't do it, man! (or woman) I know it's a competitive market out there, but what they're requesting is far too much. As long as they can see that you consistently are paid and pay rent, then that's all they should need.

indigo twist

The funny thing is, the landlords who have these unreasonable requirements like two months deposit and full bank statements etc ... They might think it's going to ensure that they get the "best" tenants, but it's not. The "best" tenants will always go for the property which comes with reasonable requirements.

Last two times we were looking (quite recently) it was in a very high-demand area. Several other families were also viewing the same houses. We were pretty much ideal tenants - good references, two permanent jobs, nice people, working professionals, non-smokers, no pets or kids (at the time.) We were given first refusal on all properties we viewed; in fact, one landlord offered us a reduced rent when we declined - even though they'd have easily gotten the full advertised rent from someone else.

If any landlord had asked us for full bank statements - not a hope in hell. We'd have looked elsewhere.

I'm aware it's a landlord's market at the moment - but the "best" tenants will still have their choice of places to rent. And will expect reasonable terms. If I'm viewing two identical properties, one is looking for a months deposit and verifiable references, the other is looking for two months deposits and verifiable references and full bank statements ... of course I'll choose the first; who wouldn't?! So the landlords with unreasonable requirements are left with the "dodgier" tenants who couldn't get offered the better places.