single farm payment and rented ground

leg wax

just want to know ,are any of you in the same position as myself,we are renting all our ground and over the years have built up acres farmed and stock ,but now face into next year that if i keep going the same way,that my sfp will be spread over all the land that i have to send in the maps for, meaning going forward to 2020 i will have to still rent that amount of ground,we are sadly been forced to cut back numbers to suit the amount of entitlements that we hold. have thought about getting another herd number and putting cattle into it under another name but wont do it as i see it just not been worth it.anyone else in the same boat.

Butcher Boy

leg wax wrote: »

just want to know ,are any of you in the same position as myself,we are renting all our ground and over the years have built up acres farmed and stock ,but now face into next year that if i keep going the same way,that my sfp will be spread over all the land that i have to send in the maps for, meaning going forward to 2020 i will have to still rent that amount of ground,we are sadly been forced to cut back numbers to suit the amount of entitlements that we hold. have thought about getting another herd number and putting cattle into it under another name but wont do it as i see it just not been worth it.anyone else in the same boat.

As far as I know the number of stock you have has nothing to do with your entitlements.

leg wax

Butcher Boy wrote: »

As far as I know the number of stock you have has nothing to do with your entitlements.

i know that, but you have to have land for the nitrates and if that land has no entitlements your own are spread over the total area giving you a new entitlement value going forward.

paddysdream

leg wax wrote: »

just want to know ,are any of you in the same position as myself,we are renting all our ground and over the years have built up acres farmed and stock ,but now face into next year that if i keep going the same way,that my sfp will be spread over all the land that i have to send in the maps for, meaning going forward to 2020 i will have to still rent that amount of ground,we are sadly been forced to cut back numbers to suit the amount of entitlements that we hold. have thought about getting another herd number and putting cattle into it under another name but wont do it as i see it just not been worth it.anyone else in the same boat.

Think I posted this before but anyways(you can look back at one of the SFP threads);
Simplified version.
Your new ie post 2015 SFP will be based on the amount of money ie net 2014 payment less all new deductions(8%?) for young farmer ,national reserve etc.
This figure will then be divided by the amount of eligible hectares declared by you in either 2013 or 2015,whichever is the lesser.
Assuming you are a livestock(ie mainly grass) farmer then its quiet simple.

Example;
You submit 50 hectares in 2013 and 2014 and your net(important figure ,disregard your gross entitlement value) money is 20k.Add in sheep grassland money if you get it.

Now take approx.8% off this(may look up exact figure).This leaves you with a new net payment of 18400.
This 18400 is now divided by either the 50 hectares from 2013 or the hectares declared in 2015.
So if you declare more land(say 60 hectares) in 2015 then your new entitlement is 306 per hectare.
If you declare the same amount(50 hectares) in 2015 then your new entitlement is 368 per hectare.
If you declare 40 hectares in 2015 then your new entitlement is 460 per hectare.
Then the cuts or increases in your entitlement value start in equal steps from then to 2019 depending on how much under or over the national average(250 approx) you are.
Thats why some people took extra land in 2013 ie to dilute high value entitlements.Might not be a wise move in many cases.

Stock numbers etc are irrevelant in lowland situation.Think min. stocking rate etc for DA etc areas.As long as you comply with scheme,GFP etc then you are ok.
Forgot to say if you are under 40 and sterted farming in your own name the young farmer top up may apply.
Think have a more detailed post somewhere but ita tae time !
The above is my understanding of it anyways but an ag. consultant would be advisable before doing anything re. land for 2015.

leg wax

paddysdream wrote: »

Think I posted this before but anyways(you can look back at one of the SFP threads);
Simplified version.
Your new ie post 2015 SFP will be based on the amount of money ie net 2014 payment less all new deductions(8%?) for young farmer ,national reserve etc.
This figure will then be divided by the amount of eligible hectares declared by you in either 2013 or 2015,whichever is the lesser.
Assuming you are a livestock(ie mainly grass) farmer then its quiet simple.

Example;
You submit 50 hectares in 2013 and 2014 and your net(important figure ,disregard your gross entitlement value) money is 20k.Add in sheep grassland money if you get it.

Now take approx.8% off this(may look up exact figure).This leaves you with a new net payment of 18400.
This 18400 is now divided by either the 50 hectares from 2013 or the hectares declared in 2015.
So if you declare more land(say 60 hectares) in 2015 then your new entitlement is 306 per hectare.
If you declare the same amount(50 hectares) in 2015 then your new entitlement is 368 per hectare.
If you declare 40 hectares in 2015 then your new entitlement is 460 per hectare.
Then the cuts or increases in your entitlement value start in equal steps from then to 2019 depending on how much under or over the national average(250 approx) you are.
Thats why some people took extra land in 2013 ie to dilute high value entitlements.Might not be a wise move in many cases.

Stock numbers etc are irrevelant in lowland situation.Think min. stocking rate etc for DA etc areas.As long as you comply with scheme,GFP etc then you are ok.
Forgot to say if you are under 40 and sterted farming in your own name the young farmer top up may apply.
Think have a more detailed post somewhere but ita tae time !
The above is my understanding of it anyways but an ag. consultant would be advisable before doing anything re. land for 2015.

thanks for all of that,but we knew this,is anyone else out there just working off rented ground, and knows where i am coming from.

paddysdream

leg wax wrote: »

thanks for all of that,but we knew this,is anyone else out there just working off rented ground, and knows where i am coming from.

With rented ground its no different than owning it.You as the active farmer have the entitlements .They are not linked to any particular piece of ground.

In other words what you face in 2015 is;
An entitlement value of x per hectare for y hectares.
Then what you need are y hectares each year(unsure re. stacking in the new scheme;think its either limited or not really available as per present scheme) to activate your entitlements.Think you can park a certain percentage of them for a year but not sure as doesn't affect me.

Right, is this your situation?
At present renting 50 hectares from 4 different farmers and drawing 20k net in your own name and herd number.(figures an example) between owned and leased entitlements.

Next year you take the same 50 hectares and get your 18400 or so.All you need then is ANY 50 eligible hectares each year.
If next year you submit 40 eligible hectares and claim the same amount then you will need any 40 hectares to activate your entitlements in the following years.People might do this if some of the land they are submitting has very low or non existing SFP at the moment.In other cases it may pay to submit extra hectares if your existing payments are very low so as to be eligible to get the proposed min. payment of approx. 150 per hectare by 2019.

Maybe haven't explained it very clearly but think thats the gist of it.
If you gave an example of your situation might help to explain better.Most of it is pretty straightforward.(I think!!)

leg wax

forget it paddy thanks.

paddysdream

leg wax wrote: »

forget it paddy thanks.

Still don't get what you are asking.Is it re. nitrates?Cutting back numbers is of no relevance to SFP in any case.
Another herd number at this stage is of no real use as regards SFP.
Good few around me working on totally rented ground ie con acre and no different to those who are farming owned ground.
Only problem going forward is that all the signs seem to be pointing towards forcing a change more and more to longer term leases and removing any benefit to renting rather than leasing.This is both from an Irish and EU perspective

Username John

leg wax wrote: »

just want to know ,are any of you in the same position as myself,we are renting all our ground and over the years have built up acres farmed and stock ,but now face into next year that if i keep going the same way,that my sfp will be spread over all the land that i have to send in the maps for, meaning going forward to 2020 i will have to still rent that amount of ground,we are sadly been forced to cut back numbers to suit the amount of entitlements that we hold. have thought about getting another herd number and putting cattle into it under another name but wont do it as i see it just not been worth it.anyone else in the same boat.

What's to stop you declaring hectares on your SFP? For instance, if you had it rented it only 11 months? Or are all your leases long term?

I am in the opposite situation leg wax, I am looking at renting as there are lads with high SFP, looking for extra land to spread their SFP, so as to reduce the cuts they'll have. I have a very small SFP, so it would suit me to 'fit' my SFP onto smaller hectares...

Farrell

We rent, but unlike you we'll need all for SR.
I know lots in your position, with expensive leases running out next year.
My opinion would be to declare land on SFP that you require for SR.
is it possible to not graze & just cut fodder on this ground only.
For nitrates you could export to someone else just for the 1 year?

Farrell

Username John wrote: »

What's to stop you declaring hectares on your SFP? For instance, if you had it rented it only 11 months? Or are all your leases long term?

I am in the opposite situation leg wax, I am looking at renting as there are lads with high SFP, looking for extra land to spread their SFP, so as to reduce the cuts they'll have. I have a very small SFP, so it would suit me to 'fit' my SFP onto smaller hectares...

I think he's in the same situation as you.
Are you going to rent/farm less ground, or have you another option

Farrell

Username John wrote: »

What's to stop you declaring hectares on your SFP? For instance, if you had it rented it only 11 months? Or are all your leases long term?

I am in the opposite situation leg wax, I am looking at renting as there are lads with high SFP, looking for extra land to spread their SFP, so as to reduce the cuts they'll have. I have a very small SFP, so it would suit me to 'fit' my SFP onto smaller hectares...

John, I've actually been thinking on this with regards the lads with High SFP.
Maybe I'm taking you up wrong, but my take is these guys intend to rent extra land in 2015 to dilute their high SFP.
If so, taking extra land in 2015 is no good, unless they had also taken extra ground in 2013, as it's the lesser of the 2 farmed / declared will be used as the are based going forward.

Username John

Farrell wrote: »

John, I've actually been thinking on this with regards the lads with High SFP.
Maybe I'm taking you up wrong, but my take is these guys intend to rent extra land in 2015 to dilute their high SFP.
If so, taking extra land in 2015 is no good, unless they had also taken extra ground in 2013, as it's the lesser of the 2 farmed / declared will be used as the are based going forward.

Hmmm, I think you're right now that I think about it Farrell. As paddy said above, it's the lessor of 2013 OR 2015 deteines the base payment per hectare.
So renting the land will suit me, as it would reduce my declared area for 2015, but it wouldn't do anything to dilute the lad with the large SFP that might rent the land. Good call, thanks.

To answer your other post Farrell - I'm looking at farming less ground.

Farrell

Username John wrote: »

Hmmm, I think you're right now that I think about it Farrell. As paddy said above, it's the lessor of 2013 OR 2015 deteines the base payment per hectare.
So renting the land will suit me, as it would reduce my declared area for 2015, but it wouldn't do anything to dilute the lad with the large SFP that might rent the land. Good call, thanks.

To answer your other post Farrell - I'm looking at farming less ground.

Fair play - smart thinking
But valid point, what about the persons (Not me thankfully) who has 1/2 years to run on some lease on land which is in reps, which they may possibly not have after the term.
If their SFP isn't too big, logic would say to stack on home farm otherwise they'll have to look for similar quantity after current term.
Could they possibly not declare for SFP, even though they will be using for reps.
There's allot of questions, timings & scenarios to play out over the next few months. Good luck to all involved.