Talked to the school about my daughters 1st communion this year..and it went well

brianon

Was worried about how this conversation would go with the school teacher. My daughter is now in 2nd class and they will be making their 1st communion in May.

Time to tell them she is not baptised and won;t be participating.

It went well (I was a little surprised at how well tbh).

1. There are 4 altogether in the class of about 30 not doing the 1st communion.

2. During the many trips to the local church these kids will remain in school (either in another class room doing school work, or maybe in the library supervised by a parent). It's unlikely the school will have another teacher to supervise them so they will have to move from their own class during these times.

3. The leaflets the parish priest likes to give them when he calls to the class will no longer be given to them.

4. They will not participate in religion this year. 2.5 hours of religion is taught each week and during these half hours they will sit together and work on school work hand picked to help them improve in areas they are weak in. This work won't be supervised exactly but the teacher will be there in the class. Just working through the religious syllabus with the rest of the class.

I'm pretty happy with all that all things considered (it's a catholic school).

*It was the sudden phone call (where'd you even get my number?!) I got from the parish priest about the 1st communion I had just gotten that prompted me to not wait any longer to tell the school.

The teacher came straight out and said that the 1st communion really does eat into their academic work so I'm really happy.

I Heart Internet

brianon wrote: »

*It was the sudden phone call (where'd you even get my number?!) I got from the parish priest about the 1st communion I had just gotten that prompted me to not wait any longer to tell the school.

From the school that he is (likely) chairman of, or at least on the Board of Management of, probably. And in his role as parish priest acting as chaplain to the parish school.

Glad everything worked out well for ye.

eviltwin

That's a great response from the school, it's really positive to see them doing what they can to support you. Hopefully other schools are the same.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

From the school that he is (likely) chairman of, or at least on the Board of Management of, probably. And in his role as parish priest acting as chaplain to the parish school.

Glad everything worked out well for ye.

Still be concerned about misuse of personal data and potential data protection issues.

The communion takes place outside of school grounds on a non school day, its questionable if a priest should be given all parents personal details for him to contact parents on his own time.

Just because somebody is involved on a board of management does not mean they should have easy access to personal data and be able to use this data as they see fit. The school like any organization should have guidelines in place.

brianon

Cabaal wrote: »

Still be concerned about misuse of personal data and potential data protection issues.

The communion takes place outside of school grounds on a non school day, its questionable if a priest should be given all parents personal details for him to contact parents on his own time.

Just because somebody is involved on a board of management does not mean they should have easy access to personal data and be able to use this data as they see fit. The school like any organization should have guidelines in place.

Thinking about it. He rang me. The school don't have my number afaik. Any texts that go out from the school go to my wife. We've given them my number several times (as it's normally me home during the school day) but as yet I've not gotten a text from them.

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

Still be concerned about misuse of personal data and potential data protection issues.

The communion takes place outside of school grounds on a non school day, its questionable if a priest should be given all parents personal details for him to contact parents on his own time.

Just because somebody is involved on a board of management does not mean they should have easy access to personal data and be able to use this data as they see fit. The school like any organization should have guidelines in place.

First Holy Communion is a school event. Children (not all) of the parish school take part in the sacrament as part of the parish. The PP is almost certainly on (if not chairman) of the school board AND is parish priest to the school community. It's perfectly reasonable that he be in a position to speak to parents (and parents to him).

The OP seems never to have raised their wishes for the child re sacraments with the school before now (that's how I read it), so confusion over their desires for their child in this regard is understandable.

brianon

I Heart Internet wrote: »

First Holy Communion is a school event. Children (not all) of the parish school take part in the sacrament as part of the parish. The PP is almost certainly on (if not chairman) of the school board AND is parish priest to the school community. It's perfectly reasonable that he be in a position to speak to parents (and parents to him).

The OP seems never to have raised their wishes for the child re sacraments with the school before now (that's how I read it), so confusion over their desires for their child in this regard is understandable.

You are right. We were never asked and we never told them. Just thought it a little weird (and a little annoying) that they would give him my number (which they probably have on record even if they still don't text me the school messages.

Cabaal

brianon wrote: »

2. During the many trips to the local church these kids will remain in school (either in another class room doing school work, or maybe in the library supervised by a parent). It's unlikely the school will have another teacher to supervise them so they will have to move from their own class during these times.

You might want to also check about school masses, what happens then?

Also you'll likely find that the classes do prayers at the beginning, middle and perhaps even the end of each school day.

The teacher came straight out and said that the 1st communion really does eat into their academic work so I'm really happy.

Thats generally the line trotted out by teachers, the reality is very different.

First Communion prep on average takes up approx 9% of school time, thats almost as much time as the students will spend on maths (around 10%)

Tayla

My son was in 2nd class last year and didn't make his either. The school were great about it, He was the only one not making it and a few of his friends were jealous of him and told their parents they didn't want to make theirs either but they had to!

He was baptised but we decided not long after that that it wasn't for us, luckily for us our son came to his own conclusion about religion after listening to it in school and told us he didn't believe any of it so he was delighted he wouldn't be making his communion.

My sons class was split last year, his half of second class was in with 3rd class so when all of 2nd class went to mass he got to stay in his own classroom and the teacher let him do the work with the older kids or play on a laptop.

His teacher approached me a few days before the Communion and asked me would I like him to attend the Communion to see his friends making it and he could sit with her but he didn't want to so I declined.

When school masses are on I drop my son in to school after the mass and he doesn't participate in prayers in class.

My daughter is in Junior infants and wasn't baptised and so won't be making her communion either.

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats generally the line trotted out by teachers, the reality is very different.

First Communion prep on average takes up approx 9% of school time, thats almost as much time as the students will spend on maths (around 10%)

I think that's the OP's point - the teacher said it DID take time, not that it DIDN'T.

brianon

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think that's the OP's point - the teacher said it DID take time, not that it DIDN'T.

Yep. Teacher said it straight out that it does interfere with their work.

Also you'll likely find that the classes do prayers at the beginning, middle and perhaps even the end of each school day.

Yep. Morning prayer, before lunch and after lunch and before they go home.

My daughter stands but doesn't participate. The teacher hadn't even noticed but said she can do that or just sit. It's ok by her.

Dades

Tayla wrote: »

luckily for us our son came to his own conclusion about religion after listening to it in school and told us he didn't believe any of it so he was delighted he wouldn't be making his communion.

I hoping for that kind of attitude in a couple of years... time will tell!

Tayla

Dades wrote: »

I hoping for that kind of attitude in a couple of years... time will tell!

It makes things easier alright. I'm not sure what it will be like with my daughter as I think girls get more into it because they all like the pretty dress and fancy shoes etc. so maybe my daughter might feel a little left out but as you said time will tell! The boys in my sons class only really cared about the money.

On the day of the Communion we brought my son out for a day out and had a great day and we told him we were very proud of him for being so mature about everything and for not being afraid of being different.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think that's the OP's point - the teacher said it DID take time, not that it DIDN'T.

whoops, my mistake
Thats what i get for speed reading :pac:

magicbastarder

how many hours a day are there of lessons in primary school? 5?
if so, i'm somewhat bemused that religion would take up one tenth of the available time.

brianon

They start at 9:20. Finish at 3:00 (from 2nd class on).

So yeah. I guess 5 hours of lessons a day. So a tenth. I wonder what subjects get dropped on the many half days they get ?

Also, this year they will spend many extra hours because of the first communion.

Hotblack Desiato

Ridiculous the amount of time wasted on this, from what is already quite a short school day and school year. The taxpayer is paying the 10% of that teacher's wages she spends filling childrens' heads with nonsense, yet endowing a religion is supposed to be unconstitutional in Ireland.

Kiwi in IE

Dades wrote: »

I hoping for that kind of attitude in a couple of years... time will tell!

Me too. This will be us in 2 years time, although the school already knows we won't be participating.

Classes are mixed at my son's school, so hopefully he will just be able to do his homework and some extra maths or English. All religious lessons should be held at the beginning or end of the school day to make non participation more convenient. At the end of the day there is no choice of schools in many areas so non participation in this nonsense should be made as hassle free as possible. I would prefer to drop Little Kiwi in late or collect him early to avoid the whole ridiculous carry on.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ridiculous the amount of time wasted on this, from what is already quite a short school day and school year. The taxpayer is paying the 10% of that teacher's wages she spends filling childrens' heads with nonsense, yet endowing a religion is supposed to be unconstitutional in Ireland.

It is astounding in this day and age that fairytales are considered to be on par with academic education, or even more important since academic work is sacrificed to fill 10% of the school day with utter bollocks.

recedite

brianon wrote: »

Was worried about how this conversation would go with the school teacher. During the many trips to the local church these kids will remain in school (either in another class room doing school work, or maybe in the library supervised by a parent). It's unlikely the school will have another teacher to supervise them.....

That school is obliged to facilitate you. Its your constitutional right.
This is bull$hit that they are doing you a favour. Why should you be "worried" about getting a right that you are guaranteed in the Irish Constitution?

Article 44 Bunreacht na hEireann wrote:

4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

This applies to any publicly funded school, whether it is a catholic school or not.

If I was you, I'd print off a copy of Article 44 and bring it in to the school. Tell them you won't be organising parents to come in from outside to supervise kids because it's the school's job to look after pupils during school hours. That's what we are paying them to do.

If they haven't got enough staff to split the kids into two groups, then they haven't got enough staff to march one group off to the church, and they'll all have to just stay in the classroom together and learn something that everyone can agree on.

brianon

If they haven't got enough staff to split the kids into two groups, then they haven't got enough staff to march one group off to the church, and they'll all have to just stay in the classroom together and learn something that everyone can agree on.

Well they can just dump them in another class I guess. Not ideal at all but it probably fulfils their requirement.

Hotblack Desiato

If they must have indoctrination during the school day, why on earth don't they get the resident local holy man to come in and do it (wtf do they do all day, after all?) Then the teacher could supervise the kids opting out - or, perish the thought, teach them something useful...

Boaty

My local parish priest has decided that the local catholic school will no longer prepare their pupils for their holy communion instead the parents of the children will prepare them.The priest said "You have to buy into the full package" which includes going to mass every weekend and such.

This is a massive weight off the teachers shoulders as last year one teacher had to prepare 45 children for holy communion. The school has nothing to do with the communion so the second class teachers said they won't even go to the communions in May which are apart of the normal Sunday mass.

Brian Shanahan

Cabaal wrote: »

Just because somebody is involved on a board of management does not mean they should have easy access to personal data and be able to use this data as they see fit. The school like any organization should have guidelines in place.

The probability is that they do, but that the secretary, a board member or teacher was approached by the priest for relevant numbers and thought "a shur, he's the priest, he can't do wrong, the law doesn't apply to him", which if I'm right is possibly an even more scary position.

@Brianon, good on you, and congratulations on getting a workable and useful outcome.

Brian Shanahan

magicbastarder wrote: »

how many hours a day are there of lessons in primary school? 5?
if so, i'm somewhat bemused that religion would take up one tenth of the available time.

Departmental guidelines suggest 2.5 hours be spent per week on religious instruction. As I worked out a few months ago that equates to 720 hours spent in primary school on a subject that is utterly useless to the child in an educational and personal development context.

brianon

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Departmental guidelines suggest 2.5 hours be spent per week on religious instruction. As I worked out a few months ago that equates to 720 hours spent in primary school on a subject that is utterly useless to the child in an educational and personal development context.

Imagine what a child could learn with 720 hours of school time ?

I wonder how much time is taken up with school prayers over the years in primary school. Ofc there is the extra hours wasted with first communion and confirmation also.

Cabaal

brianon wrote: »

Imagine what a child could learn with 720 hours of school time ?

I wonder how much time is taken up with school prayers over the years in primary school. Ofc there is the extra hours wasted with first communion and confirmation also.

Prayers seem to vary massively,

Local primary school does prayers at start, middle and end of each day.
The worst I've heard is a secondary school 3 years ago which did prayer at the start of every class! :eek:

Ash.J.Williams

brianon wrote: »

Was worried about how this conversation would go with the school teacher. My daughter is now in 2nd class and they will be making their 1st communion in May.

Time to tell them she is not baptised and won;t be participating.

It went well (I was a little surprised at how well tbh).

1. There are 4 altogether in the class of about 30 not doing the 1st communion.

2. During the many trips to the local church these kids will remain in school (either in another class room doing school work, or maybe in the library supervised by a parent). It's unlikely the school will have another teacher to supervise them so they will have to move from their own class during these times.

3. The leaflets the parish priest likes to give them when he calls to the class will no longer be given to them.

4. They will not participate in religion this year. 2.5 hours of religion is taught each week and during these half hours they will sit together and work on school work hand picked to help them improve in areas they are weak in. This work won't be supervised exactly but the teacher will be there in the class. Just working through the religious syllabus with the rest of the class.

I'm pretty happy with all that all things considered (it's a catholic school).

*It was the sudden phone call (where'd you even get my number?!) I got from the parish priest about the 1st communion I had just gotten that prompted me to not wait any longer to tell the school.

The teacher came straight out and said that the 1st communion really does eat into their academic work so I'm really happy.

sounds a bit like punishment, being isolated from the majority, depends on the child, i know i would have been on the doss.

Ash.J.Williams

Boaty wrote: »

My local parish priest has decided that the local catholic school will no longer prepare their pupils for their holy communion instead the parents of the children will prepare them.The priest said "You have to buy into the full package" which includes going to mass every weekend and such.

This is a massive weight off the teachers shoulders as last year one teacher had to prepare 45 children for holy communion. The school has nothing to do with the communion so the second class teachers said they won't even go to the communions in May which are apart of the normal Sunday mass.

that's a very sensible approach.

Cabaal

Boaty wrote: »

My local parish priest has decided that the local catholic school will no longer prepare their pupils for their holy communion instead the parents of the children will prepare them.The priest said "You have to buy into the full package" which includes going to mass every weekend and such.

This is a massive weight off the teachers shoulders as last year one teacher had to prepare 45 children for holy communion. The school has nothing to do with the communion so the second class teachers said they won't even go to the communions in May which are apart of the normal Sunday mass.

If only Parish Priest would take the exact same stance, he's dead right you do have to buy into the whole package if you agree to the catholic church. If you don't then just be a christian.

Most people in Ireland are catholic by name only, they want next to know involvement in their child's religion that they agreed to teach them.

This ala cart catholic stuff actually hurts the church more then anything,

brianon

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

sounds a bit like punishment, being isolated from the majority, depends on the child, i know i would have been on the doss.

A punishment ? I don't see that. I think it's a great chance for those kids to get something extra from school. Wherever they are, there will be a teacher in the room. They will be able to work on whatever subject that they are weak in or just reinforce a subject they are getting on well with. Can't see them 'dossing'.

I Heart Internet

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It is astounding in this day and age that fairytales are considered to be on par with academic education, or even more important since academic work is sacrificed to fill 10% of the school day with utter bollocks.

Schools are responsible for more than just the academic formation of children. Things that are not reading, writing and maths are not de-facto "utter bollocks".

In a conversation with 2 primary school principals recently, they seemed to put a lot of emphasis on "experiences" for their children i.e. "What will kids remember as adults and give them fond memories and help them grow in confidence". They listed things like school plays, school tours, school gardens and, yes, even the big days out of Communions and Confirmations.

I Heart Internet

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Departmental guidelines suggest 2.5 hours be spent per week on religious instruction. As I worked out a few months ago that equates to 720 hours spent in primary school on a subject that is utterly useless to the child in an educational and personal development context.

This is not a view held by many teachers, parents, principals or policy makers.

I know lots of people here put zero value in religion, but to claim that learning about religion is useless "in an educational and personal development context" is a claim that is impossible to stand up.

magicbastarder

there's a difference between 'learning about religion' and 'learning a religion'.

I Heart Internet

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's a difference between 'learning about religion' and 'learning a religion'.

There is. But my point still stands.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

recedite

I Heart Internet wrote: »

In a conversation with 2 primary school principals recently, they seemed to put a lot of emphasis on "experiences" for their children i.e. "What will kids remember as adults and give them fond memories and help them grow in confidence". They listed things like school plays, school tours, school gardens and, yes, even the big days out of Communions and Confirmations.

Of course kids will remember the non-routine activities better than boring maths class. That does not mean every day should be a field trip.

Considering these non-routine trips you have mentioned; School plays encourage team building and foster confidence. Gardens an appreciation of nature and science. Tours are mostly just an end of year reward. Communions and confirmations teach them how to dress up nicely, to accept impossible claims as fact without questioning them (wafer and wine miracles) how to lie for money, and always to act submissive and subservient to religious authority figures.

Cabaal

recedite wrote: »

how to lie for money

hey the money was worth it!

The rest was utter bull**** to me back then but the money was nice, would I have preferred to go to Disney Land instead...hell yeah!

I Heart Internet

recedite wrote: »

Of course kids will remember the non-routine activities better than boring maths class. That does not mean every day should be a field trip.

Considering these non-routine trips you have mentioned; School plays encourage team building and foster confidence. Gardens an appreciation of nature and science. Tours are mostly just an end of year reward. Communions and confirmations teach them how to dress up nicely, to accept impossible claims as fact without questioning them (wafer and wine miracles) how to lie for money, and always to act submissive and subservient to religious authority figures.

This is you view of these events. Many people - children and parents included actually see things quite differently.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

This is you view of these events. Many people - children and parents included actually see things quite differently.

so you think children and parents for decades have been thought to see priests, bishops etc as equal to them and that they shouldn't obey what they says?

History in Ireland shows that the priests and bishops etc were feared, they were very much obeyed., Its only recently that is changing,

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

so you think children and parents for decades have been thought to see priests, bishops etc as equal to them?

Yes.

shruikan2553

There's a point to communion and confirmation that doesn't involve money?

I Heart Internet

shruikan2553 wrote: »

There's a point to communion and confirmation that doesn't involve money?

Baddum-tisssh

MrPudding

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes.

Given your answer there can only be three possible explanations:

1) You are not from Ireland and have had little or no experience of the Catholic church and its minions.
2) You are trolling.
3) You know your answer is bull and you are simply lying.

Up until a very short time ago, even in Northern Ireland, the idea that lay people were equal to priest and bishops was unthinkable. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

MrP

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

Given your answer there can only be three possible explanations:

1) You are not from Ireland and have had little or no experience of the Catholic church and its minions.
2) You are trolling.
3) You know your answer is bull and you are simply lying.

Up until a very short time ago, even in Northern Ireland, the idea that lay people were equal to priest and bishops was unthinkable. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

MrP

I have to disagree. I went to a priest-run school in the 1970s. The experience convinced me that priests were no better, and no worse, than myself or than the general run of humanity. I don't think I was at all unusual in coming to that conclusion. In fact, my father claims that he came to the same conclusion, out of the same experience, in the 1940s.

I Heart Internet

Peregrinus wrote: »

I have to disagree. I went to a priest-run school in the 1970s. The experience convinced me that priests were no better, and no worse, than myself or than the general run of humanity. I don't think I was at all unusual in coming to that conclusion. In fact, my father claims that he came to the same conclusion, out of the same experience, in the 1940s.

Yes, and furthermore, the church itself (and most priests) have been stressing the "we're just one of you guys" since Vatican II.

I Heart Internet

MrPudding wrote: »

Given your answer there can only be three possible explanations:

1) You are not from Ireland and have had little or no experience of the Catholic church and its minions.
2) You are trolling.
3) You know your answer is bull and you are simply lying.

Up until a very short time ago, even in Northern Ireland, the idea that lay people were equal to priest and bishops was unthinkable. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

MrP

Or

4) I have a different opinion, and perhaps, life experience to you.

magicbastarder

Cabaal wrote: »

so you think children and parents for decades have been thought to see priests, bishops etc as equal to them and that they shouldn't obey what they says?

it's great that priests and bishops have had equal access to politicians and the democratic process in general too.

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

[...] the church itself (and most priests) have been stressing the "we're just one of you guys" since Vatican II.

Oh, so the church doesn't have a fault-free hotline to infinite wisdom after all?

shruikan2553

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Baddum-tisssh

Well everyone looks back and thinks about how much money they made. Never heard anyone saying that having a piece of another man's body in their mouth being the highlight :pac:

Nodin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes, and furthermore, the church itself (and most priests) have been stressing the "we're just one of you guys" since Vatican II.

Some elements of the church may have been, but they seem to have been few and far between in this country.

HIB

brianon wrote: »

Imagine what a child could learn with 720 hours of school time ?

I wonder how much time is taken up with school prayers over the years in primary school. Ofc there is the extra hours wasted with first communion and confirmation also.

I've heard a lot of people make this point - that time spent learning religion would be better spent on English, Maths etc.
But as I remember it, religion class was in effect another English class. The vast majority of it was spent reading and discussing what was read. The reading was often very non denominational also - a lot of ''little engine that could' type stories.

Maybe it's rose tinted glasses, but I really don't think religion classes were time wasted. Even though I wouldn't call myself Catholic, I think I benefited from the debate and discussion element of those classes, and they enhanced my general literacy levels.