Faster for longer.... How?

Daroxtar

I suppose it's the goal for most people who get into cycling so sorry for being a bit simplistic. Over the last year I've gone from struggling to sustain 25 kmh for half an hour to now where I'm averaging close to 30 kmh for 2 hours or so and I'm fairly sure I could raise that to 32 by just pushing harder. My general fitness had improved drastically and I've lost and kept off over a stone so in that respect I'm fairly happy.

I don't have a real training plan and it's impossible to structure a schedule with 2 small kids and long working hours. I just go hard when I get out, usually 50-70 k at the weekend and maybe a quick 25-35 midweek if I get a chance.

The closest I get to intervals would be hammering it on some Strava segments, I try and follow routes that would give me segments of between 2-5 km to hit then recover for a few minutes before going for it again on the next one.

I'm probably getting close to the stage where just pushing hard won't give any real gains so has anyone any tips to help me move on to the next level.

I'm hopefully getting rollers or a turbo before November so that will be another aspect to concentrate on and I'll be able to do an hour a few times a week so I can plan to train better. At the moment I'm leaning towards rollers to get my pedaling technique better, if anyone knows why i should get the turbo instead please feel free to tell me. I'm also going to get a bike fit done

My shorter term goal would be to get my average speed over a relatively flat course up to 33 kmh for over 2 hours. Not a huge jump from where I'm at but something to work towards. Long term, I'd like to be pushing that to 35 so next year I could do a few TTs and if I ever do decide to race I'll be closer to the pack at the end. I also want to do a 100 k closer to 3 hours than 4.

Am I being unrealistic? I'm 38 so i don't expect to get a call from any teams looking to sign me. I just want to better myself.

All advice appreciated

Edit: Tl;Dr how do I increase wattage and efficiency?

petethedrummer

Can you do the vast majority of your training rides (flat sections, small hills and downhills) on the drops?

victorcarrera

Daroxtar wrote: »

I'm probably getting close to the stage where just pushing hard won't give any real gains so has anyone any tips to help me move on to the next level.

This is the only bit I think is wrong with your post and from the info you have provided you are not overtraining. Intervals done properly produce results.
If you don't already have one a heart monitor and some reading on how to do intervals with heart monitor might help at this stage. Don't be too concerned with times and speed during the colder months save those tests for warm calm weather.

There seems to be a good mix of distance and interval work there and the proof is evident in the improvements you have made in one year. I would consider that improvement as a successful first year and aim for 50% reducing to 10% of that over the next 4 years. Don't expect too much too soon and give yourself 5 years to achieve your potential building on what you have learned before.

Daroxtar

victorcarrera wrote: »

This is the only bit I think is wrong with your post and from the info you have provided you are not overtraining. Intervals done properly produce results.
If you don't already have one a heart monitor and some reading on how to do intervals with heart monitor might help at this stage. Don't be too concerned with times and speed during the colder months save those tests for warm calm weather.

There seems to be a good mix of distance and interval work there and the proof is evident in the improvements you have made in one year. I would consider that improvement as a successful first year and aim for 50% reducing to 10% of that over the next 4 years. Don't expect too much too soon and give yourself 5 years to achieve your potential building on what you have learned before.

I should clarify, I mean pushing hard aimlessly for 2 hours might not do much for me. I'll be pushing hard as I can for intervals

Daroxtar

petethedrummer wrote: »

Can you do the vast majority of your training rides (flat sections, small hills and downhills) on the drops?

Hadn't really taken that into consideration but I will the next time I go out. I ride probably 65-70 % on the hoods, 25-30% drops.

petethedrummer

Daroxtar wrote: »

Hadn't really taken that into consideration but I will the next time I go out. I ride probably 65-70 % on the hoods, 25-30% drops.

Takes a fair bit of practice. You may need to tinker with your set up too. And you may end up going slower for a few weeks despite being more aero, until you adjust to the position.

G1032

Daroxtar wrote: »

My shorter term goal would be to get my average speed over a relatively flat course up to 33 kmh for over 2 hours. Not a huge jump from where I'm at but something to work towards. Long term, I'd like to be pushing that to 35 so next year I could do a few TTs and if I ever do decide to race I'll be closer to the pack at the end. I also want to do a 100 k closer to 3 hours than 4.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm not really qualified to give advice on cycling training but I would have thought that a jump from 30 km/hr average to 35 km/hr average would be extremely difficult and certainly much harder than jumping from 25km/hr to 30km/hr. (Kind of like a golfer dropping from a handicap of 15 to 10 and then to 5. The drop from 10 to 5 is infinitey more difficult than the drop from 15 to 10)

Leaving that aside, from reading online articles and getting advice from work collegues the general consenus is to do your base training over the winter. Cycling longer hours as a lower heart rate, as in 3-4 hour rides but with your heart rate always between 65 - 75% of your max. This takes a lot of discipline but apparently gets easier as you get fitter. I've tried it for shorter rides but always end up elevating the heart rate too much!!

Basically I think they say that riding slower (ie with a lower heart rate) will eventually lead to you riding faster when you need too!!

petethedrummer

G1032 wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm not really qualified to give advice on cycling training but I would have thought that a jump from 30 km/hr average to 35 km/hr average would be extremely difficult and certainly much harder than jumping from 25km/hr to 30km/hr.

"One of the scary implications of this equation is that at high speed, the power you have to produce is proportional to the cube of your velocity. So, to increase your speed by 25%, you need to nearly double your wattage! "

http://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

XtotheZ

train aerobicly at a hr under 75% and keep cadence fast during the winter. All in the small rings, to increse efficiency, aerobic capacity, slow twitch fibers. speed dosnt matter

Smashing yourself for KOMs isnt proper training, im guilty of this myself btw. Structured intervals are far more beneficial but boring. For what your trying to achieve I would think 1k balls out effort up a 1-2% incline in the biggest gears you can push, with long recovery in low gears is what you need. 5 reps to start, increase as you get stronger. As my trainer says "if you can do 6 your doing 5 wrong". Youd want to do this well after a very solid base has been achieved.

Also keep in mind to double your speed you have to fourfold your power output. So going from 28-30 is easier than 30-32

XtotheZ

thats amazing that the 3 of us said the exact same point about the exponential power increase!

victorcarrera

Daroxtar wrote: »

I should clarify, I mean pushing hard aimlessly for 2 hours might not do much for me. I'll be pushing hard as I can for intervals

The occasional 50mile TT aside compared to any other type of training I do I think the 2 hour effort is the least beneficial and by intervals I mean 20 seconds X 10 to 20 minutes X 2 with at least one days rest in between.

Tenzor07

Daroxtar wrote: »

how do I increase wattage and efficiency?

1. Loose Weight
2. Join a cycling club
3. Vo2 Testing
4. Buy a Power meter
5. Hire a coach

Not necessarily in that order..

ashleey

Go up some more steep hills. Then do it again. Keep looking for the steepest stuff in your training. Going mad on the flat is only part of it.

Tenzor07

Daroxtar wrote: »

Over the last year I've gone from struggling to sustain 25 kmh for half an hour to now where I'm averaging close to 30 kmh for 2 hours or so and I'm fairly sure I could raise that to 32 by just pushing harder.

Also, that means nothing.. Maybe you have more air in your tires or the wind is not as strong..

As I've mentioned already, the 5 points are the way to do things properly.

petethedrummer

Tenzor07 wrote: »

the 5 points are the way to do things properly.

I think he's trying to get over a plateau in development, not turn pro.

Brian?

A power meter is the answer I think. Average speed is dependant on too many external factors, HR too. Power output doesn't lie.

mossym

G1032 wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm not really qualified to give advice on cycling training but I would have thought that a jump from 30 km/hr average to 35 km/hr average would be extremely difficult and certainly much harder than jumping from 25km/hr to 30km/hr. (Kind of like a golfer dropping from a handicap of 15 to 10 and then to 5. The drop from 10 to 5 is infinitey more difficult than the drop from 15 to 10)

jahsus they meant it when they said cycling was the new golf...

G1032

mossym wrote: »

jahsus they meant it when they said cycling was the new golf...

Jahsus
It was just an analogy.............

mossym

G1032 wrote: »

Jahsus
It was just an analogy.............

i know, and it was a good one, hence my joke.

G1032

mossym wrote: »

i know, and it was a good one, hence my joke.

Sorry. Misinterpreted. My bad.

Chips Lovell

You don't have to go splurging money on equipment, testing and coaching. You'll see significant improvements by simply moving from an unstructured training regime to a structured one.

Don't worry about being time poor. There's plenty of people with heavy family and work commitments who can perform at quite a high level because they train smart and make good use of the limited time available to them.

Don't just go out and ride hard. Plan your session in advance. Even if you have only three hours a week, figure out what you want to do with them. You can get a decent session done in an hour if you structure it right.

Don't get distracted by Strava. Hammering up hills trying to best your times isn't the most efficient way of training. If you're doing intervals, you usually should be aiming to do each one with the same intensity.

Improvement often isn't linear. At times you might find yourself training away for a few weeks and not seem to progress and then all of a sudden you'll find it clicks and you move up to the next level.

Most coaching plans, which advise long slow miles in the winter and building up intensity towards spring are based around the cycling season, to bring people into form for when races start. If you're not training for any specific event, you don't have to follow this time table and, if you feel you've a decent aerobic base, you can push on with the intensity. Who cares if you're the winter world champion, your goal is just to go faster.

Lusk_Doyle

+1 on what the cake fella said.

Daroxtar

Thanks for all the input so far, lots to think about.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

1. Loose Weight
2. Join a cycling club
3. Vo2 Testing
4. Buy a Power meter
5. Hire a coach

Not necessarily in that order..

I can shed a few lbs so that's doable. I can join a club so that's 2. The other 3 are big expenditure that I can't afford or justify. I'm still grovelling after buying the new bike

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Also, that means nothing.. Maybe you have more air in your tires or the wind is not as strong..

Aahh, It means a bit. I don't get jelly legs or palpitations anymore

ashleey wrote: »

Go up some more steep hills. Then do it again. Keep looking for the steepest stuff in your training. Going mad on the flat is only part of it.

I try that but living in Meath. It's like the Netherland here. I have a few short little lumps that I try and get up as quick as possible and there's one rolling section that is 4 hills of about 1 minute hard push each in quick succession so I suppose I'll just try repeating that.

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

You don't have to go splurging money on equipment, testing and coaching. You'll see significant improvements by simply moving from an unstructured training regime to a structured one.

Don't worry about being time poor. There's plenty of people with heavy family and work commitments who can perform at quite a high level because they train smart and make good use of the limited time available to them.

Don't just go out and ride hard. Plan your session in advance. Even if you have only three hours a week, figure out what you want to do with them. You can get a decent session done in an hour if you structure it right.

Don't get distracted by Strava. Hammering up hills trying to best your times isn't the most efficient way of training. If you're doing intervals, you usually should be aiming to do each one with the same intensity.

Improvement often isn't linear. At times you might find yourself training away for a few weeks and not seem to progress and then all of a sudden you'll find it clicks and you move up to the next level.

Most coaching plans, which advise long slow miles in the winter and building up intensity towards spring are based around the cycling season, to bring people into form for when races start. If you're not training for any specific event, you don't have to follow this time table and, if you feel you've a decent aerobic base, you can push on with the intensity. Who cares if you're the winter world champion, your goal is just to go faster.

Thank you. This is pretty much what I'm on about. I do enjoy getting PRs and KOMs though

Tenzor07

Daroxtar wrote: »

Thanks for all the input so far, lots to think about.I can shed a few lbs so that's doable. I can join a club so that's 2. The other 3 are big expenditure that I can't afford or justify. I'm still grovelling after buying the new bike Aahh, It means a bit. I don't get jelly legs or palpitations anymore

No probs sure the loosing weight and joining a club is the best thing to do, you will learn a lot more and improve your average speed by riding in a group..

Guffy

Op to long this early but get the jist from title.


Erm I generally try to think of something else. Should be able to knock out an extra 5 min. Good luck

Carawaystick

there's the benefit of cycling in a group, which will bring your speed up due to drafting....
which isn't probably what you wanted to do.

Tenzor07

Carawaystick wrote: »

there's the benefit of cycling in a group, which will bring your speed up due to drafting....
which isn't probably what you wanted to do.

Up and overs in a group will..

XtotheZ

i think hes looking to increase his avg speed by himself, not cheat it

Tenzor07

Average speed means nothing.. On windy days if the wind is against me my avg speed goes down, and behind me it goes up..

Rua_ri

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Up and overs in a group will..

Will the benifit of "up and overs" in group riding be negated by the size of the group?
If the group is large could the time drafting in the group be counterproductive to an already time constrained OP?

REBELSAFC

Faster for longer.... How?


EPO

equivariant

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

You don't have to go splurging money on equipment, testing and coaching. You'll see significant improvements by simply moving from an unstructured training regime to a structured one.

Don't worry about being time poor. There's plenty of people with heavy family and work commitments who can perform at quite a high level because they train smart and make good use of the limited time available to them.

Don't just go out and ride hard. Plan your session in advance. Even if you have only three hours a week, figure out what you want to do with them. You can get a decent session done in an hour if you structure it right.

Don't get distracted by Strava. Hammering up hills trying to best your times isn't the most efficient way of training. If you're doing intervals, you usually should be aiming to do each one with the same intensity.

Improvement often isn't linear. At times you might find yourself training away for a few weeks and not seem to progress and then all of a sudden you'll find it clicks and you move up to the next level.

Most coaching plans, which advise long slow miles in the winter and building up intensity towards spring are based around the cycling season, to bring people into form for when races start. If you're not training for any specific event, you don't have to follow this time table and, if you feel you've a decent aerobic base, you can push on with the intensity. Who cares if you're the winter world champion, your goal is just to go faster.

I am kind of in the same boat as the OP (2 small kids, little time, MAMIL with a mid life crisis urge to try racing:) )so this thread is interesting to me also. I like the above post but I wonder about the statement "If you're doing intervals, you usually should be aiming to do each one with the same intensity." Is this backed up by research? I can see that doing intervals in a controlled way. ie doing the same type of interval training for one day each week will allow you to measure your progress more efficiently (certainly in the absence of expensive gadgets like power meters). But is it definitely true that this will lead to faster progress than randomly doing intervals over a good representative sample of different types of Strava segments for example? Intuitively, the latter strategy should be somewhat closer to 'real' riding conditions when you have to take what is thrown at you in terms of terrain and pace.

I am not being critical of the post here - clearly you have a lot more experience of training hard than I have. Just wondering why doing repeated intervals on the same intensity would lead to faster progress (as opposed to being better able to measure progress)?

Tenzor07

Rua_ri wrote: »

Will the benifit of "up and overs" in group riding be negated by the size of the group?
If the group is large could the time drafting in the group be counterproductive to an already time constrained OP?

I'm not the OP's coach, just offering some basic advice.. i.e. cycling with others improves your fitness..

Rua_ri

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I'm not the OP's coach, just offering some basic advice.. i.e. cycling with others improves your fitness..

Thanks .
It was more of a question i wanted answered for myself as i am in a similar situation to the OP.

Tenzor07

Rua_ri wrote: »

Thanks .
It was more of a question i wanted answered for myself as i am in a similar situation to the OP.

Oh right, well, small group, good solid turn at the front, drop back and recover, and do your turn at the front again...group riding is the best way to improve your speed even if you only do a couple of spins a week...

Daroxtar

victorcarrera wrote: »

The occasional 50mile TT aside compared to any other type of training I do I think the 2 hour effort is the least beneficial and by intervals I mean 20 seconds X 10 to 20 minutes X 2 with at least one days rest in between.

Sorry for being thick but do you mean you start the session with 10x 20 second intervals and then do 2x 20 minutes or do the 20 sec on one day and the 20 min another day? I am a bit clueless

victorcarrera

Daroxtar wrote: »

Sorry for being thick but do you mean you start the session with 10x 20 second intervals and then do 2x 20 minutes or do the 20 sec on one day and the 20 min another day? I am a bit clueless

Your base training should be approx 80% to 85% very low intensity and interval training no more than 10% very high intensity.
From the info you have given (2hrs @30kph) I was once where you are now so very basically here is what I would do now to improve my form.
I'll assume you have no electronic aids so all you need is a digital watch. In order to measure your progress do not add any go faster bits to your bike or kit for the time being.
Pick a calm day and after a 15min warm up, go out and ride a low traffic circuit with a roundabout at either end for 1hour exactly and record how far you got.
You already have enough base to move on to this or similar.
Over the next 4 weeks after a 15min warm up.

Week 1.
Mon 10X20sec @100% Perceived effort.
Wed 5x1min @100%.
Fri 2X20min @90%.
Sun 2 to 4 hrs very low intensity at no more than 50%.

Week 2.
Tues 10X20sec @100% Perceived effort.
Thurs 5x5min @95%.
Sat 2X20min @90%.
Sun 2 to 4 hrs very low intensity at no more than 50%.

Repeat for weeks 3 and 4 then when you feel rested and up for it attempt the one hour test described above (in similar conditions before it gets too cold) and 3 days or so later your own 60Km cct.

Note: At least one days rest between intense efforts. If you don't feel like training take an extra rest day. Intervals are hard and you should feel spent after every session. You can swap sessions as you see fit but ensure you do the 2x20min efforts every week. From my own experience these are the best.
I find the 5x5min the hardest, you might find you can only do 3x5min in the beginning but you will also learn to pace yourself and improve your breathing and cadence efficiency.
Also google interval training, the internet is full of it and the above is just what I have picked out which works for me.

I use a resistance trainer/turbo with heart rate monitor and keep a log which keeps me diligent (most of the time) and honest but try this first and see if you like it before you start spending money on it and report back and let us know how you get on.