Concerned about what my daughter witnessed sexually

hippy_hi

My seven year old daughter (just 8) recently went on a sleepover to her friends house. That friend (age 9) also had another friend stay over the same night (age 10). She told me this morning when I was getting dressed that the 10 year old had 'hair on her privates' while nothing that she doesn't. I explained that she will when she is older and enquired about how she knew. She said she was shown and when she didn't get a negative reaction from me (as I believe in keeping the lines of communication open with my children, and to take a step back and just to listen to them first in situations like such), she continued by informing me that the 9 year old was also touching the 10 year olds privates. I asked her Iif she showed hers and she said she didn't. I told her that I was proud of her because her private are HER private parts and nobody else's. Now, I am aware that children explore and that she may have told me that she didn't show hers, and she may have, however the communication is open on this matter abs the fact that I told her I was proud of her may make her think about the situation if this were to happen again in the future.

Now, my query to you is whether to inform the mother of the 9 year old or not? Personally I would be very cautious sending my daughter to he friends house again anyway, but should I tell the mother do she also knows?

And, I think it is common for children to explore however this has really disturbed me knowing what my daughter witnessed. When this occurred my daughter wanted to go home however I was working early the next morning so the mother did what she thought was right and didn't contact me (not knowing the happenings), and instead brought my daughter into her bed for the night. My daughter informed me that the reason she wanted to go home was due to the 9 year old touching the 10 yeast old privates! What do people think? Is this really 'normal'?

December2012

My kids are younger than yours but I have nieces / nephews etc.

To me, that does not sound like behaviour you should ignore.

If it was your child, you would want to know so you could talk to your child about it (and also to investigate if it was consensual).

I think you should have a chat face to face with the mother.

happywithlife

Maybe it's just me but I'd think it's more natural curiosity than anything sexual so I wouldn't get overly worried. I wouldn't make a huge deal of it with your dd but 2 things remain unanswered for me from your op - are you happy with the overall level of supervision at the sleepover? Unless this incident occurred when the girls were changing for bed I'd be very very annoyed. Second - when you say the other girl 'explored' the older girls privates what does this mean exactly? Was it a purely curiosity kinda investigation (don't know how to phrase it) or something more sinister - considering you used the word sexual in your title?

hippy_hi

Thank you both for your responses. No im not happy with the level of supervision during the sleepover, who would be?! When I say explored I generally meant being curious about their privates and how they may discuss this with their peers however I would not consider what my daughter witnessed as innocent 'exploration', this, to me, is going too far. Obviously my daughter felt uncomfortable and wanted to come home. I think that says that she was not consenting, nor should she have to be put in that situation for her to consent or not.

The impression I got from my daughter was that it was curiosity between the girls, ill show you mine if you show me yours type of thing, as I think my daughter was interested in the fact that the 10 year old was developing and she wasn't yet,. Then it went too far for her. That's how I read the situation. And yes I would call a touching situation between them as a sexual thing so that is why I used it in the heading.

happywithlife

Then I think you've answered your own question - you'll have to have a chat with that mam. She should have told you the older girl would be there too. She should have brought your dd home when she asked and she obviously should have been supervising a bit more closely. You'll have to tell her what the girls were up to

Chattastrophe!

First of all, I wouldn't blame inadequate supervision. When I went to sleepovers at that age, we certainly weren't under constant supervision - as long as the parents knew we were all in the house, they were happy to just check in on us every now and then.

To be honest, it seems to me like a case of innocent curiosity that went a little bit too far. If I were in your situation, I'd see it as an isolated incident and I wouldn't be inclined to tell the other girls' parents - you just don't know how they'd react, they could get very angry and punish the girls, making them feel ashamed about their natural sexual curiosity. I know, at that stage, my close friends and I talked loads about our bodies, who had hair, who had boobs, who had gotten their period. I agree that showing and touching is a step too far, but as a once-off, I'd ignore it ... the two girls are probably feeling a little bit awkward afterwards as it is, let alone the mortification of having their parents told about it!

I'd take this opportunity to make sure your daughter has a good understanding of puberty and all the rest - even if she thinks she knows it all, buy her a book to look at in her own time.

I really would try to avoid making a major issue out of this, if possible. They're only children, and a bit of curiosity is normal - if the parents get involved, there's a good chance the friendships will be over as the other girls won't appreciate your daughter getting them in trouble (I know that's absolutely not what you're trying to do, but that's how they'll see it.)

diveout

I don't think this is because of lack of supervision, sleepovers tend to be like this.

But I would not assume this is an isolated incident- it might be- but it might not be.

Given that kids these days, now can get in a lot of trouble for things like this, especially if one is older than the other and leading it, I do think that you should talk to the mom so she knows what happened. This way the ten year old can be guided into what is ok and not ok, some parents would really freak out if this was their child. They don't want to be 14 and still doing things like this because no one told them that it crosses a line.

I know freaking out is not really a helpful response and that kids are naturally curious, but they also have to learn the boundaries around this.

When kids are mutually exploring it's hard to know what to do really.

Chattastrophe!

diveout wrote: »

Given that kids these days, now can get in a lot of trouble for things like this, especially if one is older than the other and leading it, I do think that you should talk to the mom so she knows what happened. This way the ten year old can be guided into what is ok and not ok, some parents would really freak out if this was their child. They don't want to be 14 and still doing things like this because no one told them that it crosses a line.

That's all well and good, if you knew that the other girl's mother would deal with it in a calm way and have a general chat at some stage with the girl about what is and isn't acceptable, talk about boundaries, etc (without referring to that specific incident.)

However you just don't know how the mother will deal with it. She might get angry, she might punish the child, she might act disgusted with her. The child might end up with permanent negative, shameful feelings about her body and how it's changing.

Honestly, thinking back to when I was that age, if I'd been involved in that sort of an incident and then the parents got involved ... I would have pretty much died with the embarrassment of it. They're not really children anymore, they're pre-teens, and a lot more mature than adults tend to give them credit for. I'd be of the view that they should be left to work out boundaries amongst themselves.

When I was that age, most of my sexual education came from friends rather than my parents - and yes, at first I got wrong impressions and incorrect information - but we all figured it out as we went along, and also we all worked out what was and wasn't inappropriate. When my mother gave me a book at the age of twelve, it was interesting to read some of the science behind it, but sure my friends and I had been talking about all of the puberty/sex stuff for years already.

I'd be worried if this was an ongoing thing, but from what you've described, I think talking to the other parents would potentially do a lot more harm than good.

Moonbeam

Personally I would not see it as a sexual act but I would just say it to their mum in a nice way .

diveout

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

That's all well and good, if you knew that the other girl's mother would deal with it in a calm way and have a general chat at some stage with the girl about what is and isn't acceptable, talk about boundaries, etc (without referring to that specific incident.)

However you just don't know how the mother will deal with it. She might get angry, she might punish the child, she might act disgusted with her. The child might end up with permanent negative, shameful feelings about her body and how it's changing.

Honestly, thinking back to when I was that age, if I'd been involved in that sort of an incident and then the parents got involved ... I would have pretty much died with the embarrassment of it. They're not really children anymore, they're pre-teens, and a lot more mature than adults tend to give them credit for. I'd be of the view that they should be left to work out boundaries amongst themselves.

When I was that age, most of my sexual education came from friends rather than my parents - and yes, at first I got wrong impressions and incorrect information - but we all figured it out as we went along, and also we all worked out what was and wasn't inappropriate. When my mother gave me a book at the age of twelve, it was interesting to read some of the science behind it, but sure my friends and I had been talking about all of the puberty/sex stuff for years already.

I'd be worried if this was an ongoing thing, but from what you've described, I think talking to the other parents would potentially do a lot more harm than good.

I agree with you entirely, the problem is if that if it continues and she doesn't know any better because no one has taught her, she could end up with an accusation or even a charge.

She is ten years old and exposed herself and touching another girl in the presence of an 8 year old. She obviously does not have a clue and no one has the courage to bring it to the mother's attention.

eviltwin

It probably was innocent but as a parent I'd still appreciate a heads up

hippy_hi

I think it needs to be said alright, I will have to be very diplomatic about it so there is not an over reaction towards the child. I think Chattastrophie! is right when he/she stated that if the parents go about it the wrong way with theit children, the childs sexual development could be hampered resulting in them feeling ashamed about their bodies, which is not the result anyone would want.

I also think if it was my child I would want to know. So in that sense I think it would be important to inform the mother of the 9 year old. I don't know the mother of the 10 year old, so that would be up to the mother of the 9 year old to pass on if she so wishes.

Chattastrophe!

I feel a bit conflicted here.

As a parent - if it were my child, I'm thinking of course I'd want to know, I'd want to know everything that was going on, and I'd hate for other parents to hide that sort of thing from me.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem all that long ago that I was that age, and learning and exploring things for myself. I had friends older and younger than me, and we all learned from each other. And there was trust and confidence between us. I just know that, if I went home to my mum and said "Mary told me today about periods", and if my mum went to 'Mary''s mum about it, and 'Mary''s mum gave out shite to her about telling another kid about that stuff, then 'Mary' would have fallen out with me big time about getting mammies involved.

I do acknowledge that showing and touching is certainly a step too far, but I also think that both girls have probably realised that, in hindsight, it wasn't OK or acceptable and it's not something they'd do again. I think children of that age are far more advanced than we give them credit for.

Getting parents involved makes this a big issue for the children in question. It doesn't need to happen. In my opinion, they'll generally figure out the boundaries for themselves. I honestly can't see any real benefit to telling the girls' parents. What are they going to do? Any discussion or intervention will only result in the child being absolutely mortified (even if the parents don't get angry with her, which is a strong possibility.)

It's up to yourself, but in my position, I'd educate my own child as much as possible, I'd probably put off sleepovers with those particular children for a year or so, and I'd say nothing to the other parents. Maybe it's not the "right" answer, but it's what would feel right to me.

hippy_hi

Yes I think you make alot of sense. I'm conflicted myself to be honest. After my post this morning I was thinking about how I would approach it and I put myself in the position of that mother and I noted how embarrassed I would be. It would look like a judgemental thing on her parenting also as it occurred in her house. It could as easily have occurred in my house or anyone else's, as one of the posts earlier noted that when girls are together parents generally just check in with them every one in a while, and how long would it take to have this conversation and incidence? Prob as little as 2 minutes!

No matter what I do I think taking openly about girls bodies should be the perogative toward my daughter and yes Ill def be withholding sleepovers for a while to come!

diveout

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

I feel a bit conflicted here.

As a parent - if it were my child, I'm thinking of course I'd want to know, I'd want to know everything that was going on, and I'd hate for other parents to hide that sort of thing from me.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem all that long ago that I was that age, and learning and exploring things for myself. I had friends older and younger than me, and we all learned from each other. And there was trust and confidence between us. I just know that, if I went home to my mum and said "Mary told me today about periods", and if my mum went to 'Mary''s mum about it, and 'Mary''s mum gave out shite to her about telling another kid about that stuff, then 'Mary' would have fallen out with me big time about getting mammies involved.

I do acknowledge that showing and touching is certainly a step too far, but I also think that both girls have probably realised that, in hindsight, it wasn't OK or acceptable and it's not something they'd do again. I think children of that age are far more advanced than we give them credit for.

Getting parents involved makes this a big issue for the children in question. It doesn't need to happen. In my opinion, they'll generally figure out the boundaries for themselves. I honestly can't see any real benefit to telling the girls' parents. What are they going to do? Any discussion or intervention will only result in the child being absolutely mortified (even if the parents don't get angry with her, which is a strong possibility.)

It's up to yourself, but in my position, I'd educate my own child as much as possible, I'd probably put off sleepovers with those particular children for a year or so, and I'd say nothing to the other parents. Maybe it's not the "right" answer, but it's what would feel right to me.

There is a huge gap between talking and actual exposure and touching.

The adults have to find a way to talk about this without shame. You are projecting your own embarrassment here. There are ways to do this without shame.

I can understand why you would not send on sleep overs after that, but no doubt the mother will notice it and wonder why and possibly think she did something wrong and be entirely in the dark.

I think as difficult as it is, it does need to be talked out and addressed. She could get in big big trouble one day and she could be totally innocent and soley because she doesn't realise. And that is not fair.

Rubberchikken

it's a difficult thing but you did really well to just listen to your daughter and not react.
tbh i'd have a chat with her friend's mum. it seems this older girl was the instigator and while some 9 yos are 'mature' others are still children and will go along with whatever is asked of them.

the woman should have at least contacted you when your daughter asked to go home. a bit better supervision would not have gone astray. and if you didn't know about the other girl being present, you should at least have been told when you dropped your daughter there.

good luck

December2012

You can't base your decision on the way that other parents might react.

hippy_hi

I bite the bullet so to speak and I said it to the mother. It was a hard thing to say to another mother but I am glad I did, as is she. She thanked me for telling her saying that she would prefer to know. She was very annoyed knowing that it happened in her home, as any of us would be and she apologised profusely informing me that she was checking on them; I do not think this was her fault at all as it could just as easily have occurred anywhere and in minuscule time.

She did not over react, instead she listened and thought about what to do. She said she will look up how to talk to her child about this, to look for tips on the best approach as her daughter is only 9 years of age she did not think she would have to have a conversation of this sort as of yet.

I did know that the 10 year old was staying over on the same night, however it just happened like that, my daughter went over for a play and it turned out to be a sleepover.

I am so glad that I said it to her and the root of this is education for the children, which at least both my daughter and the 9 year old will be more informed of after this incident, which can only be a good thing. Taking the positive out of the situation!

Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it.

KCC

hippy_hi wrote: »

I am so glad that I said it to her and the root of this is education for the children, which at least both my daughter and the 9 year old will be more informed of after this incident, which can only be a good thing. Taking the positive out of the situation!

.

I think you did the right thing especially because bear in mind the root cause of this may be more than ignorance. I think the 10 year old's parents should be informed of this.

I remember being that age and despite knowing all the facts re: puberty and sex, I was mortified at the changes in my body! There could be something more going on here. Most kids are taught that private parts are private. What is confusing this child? There could be something very serious underlying this (e.g. abuse).

Gatling

KCC wrote: »

I remember being that age and despite knowing all the facts re: puberty and sex, I was mortified at the changes in my body! There could be something more going on here. Most kids are taught that private parts are private. What is confusing this child? There could be something very serious underlying this (e.g. abuse).

Not necessarily a lot of kids experience /experiment with sex at a young age and very rarely does abuse come into it ,
From curious you show yours to you show you mine to kissing and more and its all perfectly normal

hippy_hi

There could be alright. I do not know the mother of the 10 year old so I couldn't even pass it on even if I wanted to. I informed the 9 year olds mother and it would be up to her to pass on the details of the incident to the other mother. Im not overly friendly with the mother of the 9 year old, our children are friends. All I can do is tell her if she would like to pass on the details to do so, which I did when I informed her. After that, its up to her. As she was delighted that I told her here's to hoping she will also pass on the information!

Knowledge is power as they say.

hippy_hi

I looked it up online after, there is loads of information highlighting the different phases children can go through, and mostly noting that if children are exploring by talking or ill show you mine sort of thing and they are the same age, it is fairly normal. Whats not normal is when there is an age difference or if there is coercion.

At the end of the day, yes I agree that the mother of the 10 year old should know, and then they can inform their child about their privates and how they are private to them and them only.