NPPR data mismatches (split from 'Ridiculous NPPR situation' thread)

filbert the fox

:(Dublin City Council wrote to me with a communication about NPPR and outstanding liability. A few important points first of all:

1. They are writing to me even though I've paid my charges. I've all of my receipts.
2. They can't say they didn't know I've paid 'cos the letter prattles on about how they can share data with other bodies and had a "data matching" process with Revenue recently.
3. If I got one surely loads of others got one too. I'm livid at the cost of all of this madness.
4. Receiving this type of communication makes one feel that there is some reason for being targetted and makes a mockery of the compliance process.
5. Surely compliant taxpayers should not be in the firing line like this or is there a trawl of everyone with a plan for lining government coffers
6. when I paid the charges I was given reference numbers and passwords which identified me. This letter has no reference number.
7. Are they sharing data or not.
8. This has obviously exercised a number of people as at 10.30 this morning I was 29th in the call centre queue to speak about NPPR alone.:(

The_Conductor

Got a similar letter from South Dublin Co.Co. today.
They are asserting that as all the units aside from mine where I live, are let- that mine must also be let, and its up to me to prove its owner occupied, or else an additional penalty of 3,100 applies from the 1st of September.

Arrrrgghhhhhhhh.............

filbert the fox wrote: »

:(Dublin City Council wrote to me with a communication about NPPR and outstanding liability. A few important points first of all:

1. They are writing to me even though I've paid my charges. I've all of my receipts.
2. They can't say they didn't know I've paid 'cos the letter prattles on about how they can share data with other bodies and had a "data matching" process with Revenue recently.
3. If I got one surely loads of others got one too. I'm livid at the cost of all of this madness.
4. Receiving this type of communication makes one feel that there is some reason for being targetted and makes a mockery of the compliance process.
5. Surely compliant taxpayers should not be in the firing line like this or is there a trawl of everyone with a plan for lining government coffers
6. when I paid the charges I was given reference numbers and passwords which identified me. This letter has no reference number.
7. Are they sharing data or not.
8. This has obviously exercised a number of people as at 10.30 this morning I was 29th in the call centre queue to speak about NPPR alone.:(

L1011

My parents got a similar letter claiming Revenue matching shows their house to be non principal. Despite living there...

NPPR was paid on their second house but in a different council so there's no matching there

murphaph

What a total and utter shambles....and still no joined up databases, no compulsory registration of actual abode etc. so it's no wonder not even the state knows where everyone actually live.

quadrifoglio verde

MYOB wrote: »

My parents got a similar letter claiming Revenue matching shows their house to be non principal. Despite living there...

NPPR was paid on their second house but in a different council so there's no matching there

My parents got one saying that they owed for 2009-2013, despite them not owning it until 2010 and it being their ppr since. Not to mention they sent the letter to what they were implying was their nppr.
Surely if the council have evidence to suggest that its not their ppr, they'd then send the letter to the address they believed to be their ppr. :rolleyes:

garhjw

Should we expect anything else from the councils? At best, they are incompetent.

They justi seem to be firing out letters randomly where their "databases" throw out mismatches.

I can see a lot of cases going legal, perhaps not as far as court, and the council embarrassing themselves.

delahuntv

Ombudsman has got involved.

Seems there are quite a lot of serious errors.

1. - charge was not advertised properly. (if you lived outside Ireland you may not have heard of he charge)

2. - Adverts for the tax said "if you owned a second home". That suggested that if you lved with say parent s and bought a rental home, you were not liable.

3. - Penalties are far too severe and in addition, they are maximum penalties.



I would ask for a "final decision letter" and then make complain to ombudsman.


Staff in council offices don;t even seem to know the legislation - I bought a hliday hme last juy from a receiver of a development. I was told I was liable from when the house was built and not from when I bought it. The legislation VERY clearly states that house that were not occupied as dwellings and were part of a new development and bought new after April 1st are not liable.

Even after reading it out - she said that " the tax is due as that's what she understood and I will have extra penalties if I don;t pay this week" - I said I'd rather belive my solicitor and the black and white print of the legislation. - I ended the call - I just can;t beive the utter lack of knowledge of the "specialist" staff themselves.

Victor

The above posts split from this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057278102

Moderator

jack_pearse

Next thing that will happen with all these people only paying the nppr tax now is the revenue will go and check if they have been receiving rental income on these properties for all these years and not declaring it.

conorhal

I'm confused, do you have to pay NPPR on a rental property investment? Wasn't this supposed to be phased out with the introduction of the property tax?

Tigger

conorhal wrote: »

I'm confused, do you have to pay NPPR on a rental property investment? Wasn't this supposed to be phased out with the introduction of the property tax?

yes it was but people that didn't pay before iot was phased out owe it for those years

Sun in Capri

Okay so what if you started to rent out a property in Jan 2013? Is there a liability? I can't find out when the NPPR was abolished.

Magilla Gorilla

The liability date for 2013 was 31st March. If the property was not your PPR on that date, you are liable.

The NPPR was abolished with the introduction of the Local Property Tax for the half-year from 1st July 2013.

sunnysoutheast

Sun in Capri wrote: »

Okay so what if you started to rent out a property in Jan 2013? Is there a liability? I can't find out when the NPPR was abolished.

Literally the first site that comes up when you type "nppr" into Google explains everything.

https://www.nppr.ie/default.aspx

Liability date for 2013 was 31st March. If not your PPR on that date then it is payable for 2013 - it will have penalties applied now. A half-year LPT charge was also payable in 2013. No NPPR for 2014 onwards.

garhjw

Is the council contacting everyone they think has outstanding NPPRs? It is clear some people were not aware of the charge at all. Others did not and possibly do not realise it is applicable to them.

Will the council contact all of these people ahead of August 31st? It just seems to be such a mess that people are being notified so close to the deadline (irrespective of whether they should have known about the NPPR in the first place)

Magilla Gorilla

Most councils have sent out an information letter recently to "potentially" liable people based on data received from the revenue commissioners LPT database. There was no legal obligation to do so but it is an attempt to alert the public before the higher penalties come in on 1st September. The councils do not know who is or is not liable, so no doubt there will be some people getting a shock in the future....

maggiep2010

I have just found out about this debacle today! Never heard of this tax before..

I emigrated to London in 2010, friends living in my house and paying rent (still not enough to cover mortgage).

I registered for Property tax and have been paying that since last year, now I hear about this!

I haven't received a letter about it yet, and am trying to figure out if the council know i don't live there or not.. don't want to get in touch with them to find out they didn't know i was liable.. any advice?

Victor

maggiep2010 wrote: »

any advice?

Pay ASAP. The penalties are steep.

The council may or may not know, but Revenue do.

maggiep2010

Victor wrote: »

Pay ASAP. The penalties are steep.

The council may or may not know, but Revenue do and they are taking over the collection responsibility.

But how would revenue know? tenants don't claim tax credits or rent allowance, property tax is in my name at that address..

I am really angry this tax... I have had to emigrate, my house is worth half what I paid for it, I am paying property tax on it already, and now being expected to pay for another tax because I could no longer live in my home, a tax which I was never notified about, with huge penalties on top! I have never profited from renting out my home, I have had to supplement the rent to make mortgage payments for the past 4 years..
Some country! It's essentially penalising me for emigrating...

garhjw

Victor wrote: »

Pay ASAP. The penalties are steep.

The council may or may not know, but Revenue do and they are taking over the collection responsibility.

I think Revenue made it clear they will not be involved in collecting outstanding NPPR charges. Has this changed in the last couple of weeks?

See here - http://www.revenue.ie/en/spotlights/nppr.html

quadrifoglio verde

maggiep2010 wrote: »

I have just found out about this debacle today! Never heard of this tax before..

I emigrated to London in 2010, friends living in my house and paying rent (still not enough to cover mortgage).

I registered for Property tax and have been paying that since last year, now I hear about this!

I haven't received a letter about it yet, and am trying to figure out if the council know i don't live there or not.. don't want to get in touch with them to find out they didn't know i was liable.. any advice?

It's been the case since 2009. You might be in a bit of bother with revenue, well actually your friends might be. They're required to hold 20% of the rent if the landlord resides outside of the country and pay the rent directly to you. Also if you haven't registered them with the prtb Do so ASAP as non registered landlords get a nice hefty fine from time to time.

With regards to your query, not knowing about a tax, doesn't absolve you from the penalties. It's up to you to make sure your affairs are in order at year end. Sucks, but it's the only way to avoid penalties. Best thing to do would be contact authority and agree a payment plan. One of the heads was saying that if contact is made by Sunday evening (note phone calls may not be answered on Sunday, or letters delivered) then they'd freeze it at the current amount.

If the property was your ppr in 2009, then it isn't owed for 2009.

If the fines aren't paid, the amount is increased and frozen, then placed as a charge against the property for the next 12 years.

http://www.bmsolicitors.ie/what-are-my-options-if-i-was-liable-to-pay-the-nppr-but-i-have-not-paid/

quadrifoglio verde

maggiep2010 wrote: »

But how would revenue know? tenants don't claim tax credits or rent allowance, property tax is in my name at that address..

I am really angry this tax... I have had to emigrate, my house is worth half what I paid for it, I am paying property tax on it already, and now being expected to pay for another tax because I could no longer live in my home, a tax which I was never notified about, with huge penalties on top! I have never profited from renting out my home, I have had to supplement the rent to make mortgage payments for the past 4 years..
Some country! It's essentially penalising me for emigrating...

It amazes me how much people underestimate the power and information of revenue.
I find it hard to believe that your tenants have no paper trail tying them to the property, no ebs bills, not on revenues system for tax credits etc.

quadrifoglio verde

garhjw wrote: »

I think Revenue made it clear they will not be involved in collecting outstanding NPPR charges. Has this changed in the last couple of weeks?

See here - http://www.revenue.ie/en/spotlights/nppr.html

Not that I know off, charge is put on property for the next 12 years if it's not paid.
However the councils have got the info from revenue based on the property tax...

Victor

maggiep2010 wrote: »

But how would revenue know? tenants don't claim tax credits or rent allowance, property tax is in my name at that address..

I am really angry this tax... I have had to emigrate, my house is worth half what I paid for it, I am paying property tax on it already, and now being expected to pay for another tax because I could no longer live in my home, a tax which I was never notified about, with huge penalties on top! I have never profited from renting out my home, I have had to supplement the rent to make mortgage payments for the past 4 years..
Some country! It's essentially penalising me for emigrating...

So, where are you paying your income tax?

maggiep2010

Victor wrote: »

So, where are you paying your income tax?

In the UK.

Victor

So, paying income tax in UK and property tax in Ireland will likely have you flagged.

murphaph

maggiep2010 wrote: »

In the UK.

You've likely been making a loss on the rental income but you should be filing tax returns to Revenue. Apart from the fact that you have to, the losses are carried forward each year and can be offset against future gains.

The NPPR penalties are unfair in the extreme. Sorry about that.

athtrasna

murphaph wrote: »

You've likely been making a loss on the rental income but you should be filing tax returns to Revenue. Apart from the fact that you have to, the losses are carried forward each year and can be offset against future gains.

The NPPR penalties are unfair in the extreme. Sorry about that.

That's not correct. The rent v mortgage situation does not mean a loss is being made. Tax is due on all rental income less allowable deductions, regardless of whether or not the rent covers the mortgage.

GerardKeating

maggiep2010 wrote: »

But how would revenue know? tenants don't claim tax credits or rent allowance, property tax is in my name at that address..

I am really angry this tax... I have had to emigrate, my house is worth half what I paid for it, I am paying property tax on it already, and now being expected to pay for another tax because I could no longer live in my home, a tax which I was never notified about, with huge penalties on top! I have never profited from renting out my home, I have had to supplement the rent to make mortgage payments for the past 4 years..
Some country! It's essentially penalising me for emigrating...

They have been advertising this tax, regularly and extensively since it was introduced. I am not (and never have been) a property owner, and am aware of the tax.

murphaph

athtrasna wrote: »

That's not correct. The rent v mortgage situation does not mean a loss is being made. Tax is due on all rental income less allowable deductions, regardless of whether or not the rent covers the mortgage.

I said "likely making a loss" for this very reason. The OP isn't even covering the mortgage with the rent and I strongly suspect given the vintage of the mortgage that most of the repayments are interest.

maggiep2010

Victor wrote: »

So, paying income tax in UK and property tax in Ireland will likely have you flagged.

This is what I was curious about, whether revenue would have access to information from other countries…

quadrifoglio verde

maggiep2010 wrote: »

This is what I was curious about, whether revenue would have access to information from other countries…

Yes as there's double taxation treaties

subpar

Is the biggest property owner in the State i.e NAMA paying the NPPR charge and fines if appropriate on in tens of thousands of properties ??????????

quadrifoglio verde

subpar wrote: »

Is the biggest property owner in the State i.e NAMA paying the NPPR charge and fines if appropriate on in tens of thousands of properties ??????????

What's be the point if they even did?
It'd be an accounting matter, moving money from one state entity to anther. At the end of the day, the states take would be the same.

subpar

The point is that the little guy is always hit.

The only money that NAMA have has been provided by you and me and the rest of the tax payers

quadrifoglio verde

subpar wrote: »

The point is that the little guy is always hit.

The only money that NAMA have has been provided by you and me and the rest of the tax payers

And the aim of Nama was to prevent the further collapse in property prices. By them hovering up every potential fire sale asset, it restricted supply meaning that prices weren't going to collapse as much as they should have.
If there was no Nama, you'd have had significant further price falls, increased negative equity and a further fall in spending. The government never wanted property prices to fall, as too many of your "little guys" were caught up in it.

Also the other aim of Nama is to eventually return a profit to you and me the tax payer, which I can see it doing which will benefit you and me the ordinary tax payer.

It was only those who didn't own property or were buying for yield that wanted to see price falling further. The common joe soap who paid a fortune for a 1 bed shoebox in 2006 wants property prices to rise ASAP and there's a lot of them around.

The_Conductor

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

What's be the point if they even did?
It'd be an accounting matter, moving money from one state entity to anther. At the end of the day, the states take would be the same.

NAMA do indeed pay their due taxes- and yes, it is in effect a book keeping exercise.

When one state agency procures goods or services from an other state agency (or body)- they pay for it- as they would pay for a good or service bought anywhere else. Occasionally there may be reciprochal agreements between bodies- but they are the exception rather than the norm.

The Office of Public Works- gets most of its money from Departments and agencies, other than its home agency. Government Departments have to pay for official passports from the DFA etc etc etc

quadrifoglio verde

The_Conductor wrote: »

NAMA do indeed pay their due taxes- and yes, it is in effect a book keeping exercise.

When one state agency procures goods or services from an other state agency (or body)- they pay for it- as they would pay for a good or service bought anywhere else. Occasionally there may be reciprochal agreements between bodies- but they are the exception rather than the norm.

The Office of Public Works- gets most of its money from Departments and agencies, other than its home agency. Government Departments have to pay for official passports from the DFA etc etc etc

My point was more along the lines of what's the point worrying whether Nama have to pay these kind of taxes, because it makes little if any difference to the government books at the end of the day

ebbsy

I cannot remember did I get a letter regarding this tax before it started, I d'ont believe I did. I do remember getting reminder emails every year after that as I paid.

The councils had not got a rasher what they were doing, the revenue would have had some idea regarding properties and PPS numbers.
A really bad job done there.

The interest being charged would not be out of place alongside payday lenders.

Victor

Can we stick to the topic at hand?

Moderator

Ogham

maggiep2010 wrote: »

I have just found out about this debacle today! Never heard of this tax before..

I emigrated to London in 2010, friends living in my house and paying rent (still not enough to cover mortgage).

I registered for Property tax and have been paying that since last year, now I hear about this!

I haven't received a letter about it yet, and am trying to figure out if the council know i don't live there or not.. don't want to get in touch with them to find out they didn't know i was liable.. any advice?

The fact that you registered for propertytax at your Irish address probably means that Revenue aren't aware of your "nppr" .

quadrifoglio verde

Ogham wrote: »

The fact that you registered for propertytax at your Irish address probably means that Revenue aren't aware of your "nppr" .

Yes but tax treaties between ireland and uk will flag it

filbert the fox

jack_pearse wrote: »

Next thing that will happen with all these people only paying the nppr tax now is the revenue will go and check if they have been receiving rental income on these properties for all these years and not declaring it.

And your point being?