Middle management crisis

ethical

There has been a middle management crisis in secondary schools now for some time and it does not look like getting better any time soon.I heard the following the other day and wondered if this is correct procedure.A school has 8 Special Duties posts and 0 Assistant Principal posts. (Assistant Principal post holder among the recently retired). This particular school has been granted 2 Assistant Principal Posts.Staff were told that both positions would be advertised and that one would be filled on seniority.I just wonder if this is correct procedure? (Say for example that 2 of the 8 existing Special Duties Postholders 'go for' and be successful in getting the positions,the school will be no better of other than the two postholders who will have more money in their pocket...................or will they?,if the money from the new post carries them over the 65,000 threshold(FEMPI),their wages will be pared back to 65,000,the work load increases but the school does not benefit nor do the new post holders,am I correct in saying this?

rainbowtrout

Well I don't understand how one of the two positions would be filled on seniority. I would have said they both have to be filled under the same criteria.

If two Special Duties teachers get the two AP positions, the school is no better of in terms of the number of teachers that hold posts, but the two teachers that take up the AP positions would have their timetables reduced to carry out their duties, so you could argue they would be better off in that respect.

They are also getting a pay increase. It would depend on each teacher's personal situation. The FEMPI thing doesn't reduce a teachers wage to 65k. It means anyone above 65k gets a 5.5% paycut on their wage, but that it will not go below 65k if the reduction was to do so.

Again it all depends on a person's situation. If a teacher was on 60k with a Special Duties post, the switch from SD to AP would leave them on about 65k. Some might consider it worth it.

solerina

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well I don't understand how one of the two positions would be filled on seniority. I would have said they both have to be filled under the same criteria.

If two Special Duties teachers get the two AP positions, the school is no better of in terms of the number of teachers that hold posts, but the two teachers that take up the AP positions would have their timetables reduced to carry out their duties, so you could argue they would be better off in that respect.

They are also getting a pay increase. It would depend on each teacher's personal situation. The FEMPI thing doesn't reduce a teachers wage to 65k. It means anyone above 65k gets a 5.5% paycut on their wage, but that it will not go below 65k if the reduction was to do so.

Again it all depends on a person's situation. If a teacher was on 60k with a Special Duties post, the switch from SD to AP would leave them on about 65k. Some might consider it worth it.

This does not happen in Voluntary secondary schools only ETB (as far as I know). We certainly have our AP post holders working the full 22 hours

rainbowtrout

solerina wrote: »

This does not happen in Voluntary secondary schools only ETB (as far as I know). We certainly have our AP post holders working the full 22 hours

Then I guess it will definitely come down to whether it's worth it financially or not. Unless anyone on that staff has longterm ambitions of moving into management and wants some experience dealing with say disciplinary issues as a year head

TheDriver

I think asti had agreement about 1 on seniority and 1 open game so sounds right. I wouldn't be running for it if there is only 2 people AP for whole school

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

I think asti had agreement about 1 on seniority and 1 open game so sounds right. I wouldn't be running for it if there is only 2 people AP for whole school

Wouldn't that depend on the size of the school?

happywithlife

Fairly sure that asti thing is correct - 1 post filled on senority and 1 open

rainbowtrout

happywithlife wrote: »

Fairly sure that asti thing is correct - 1 post filled on senority and 1 open

How would that work in a dual union school?

happywithlife

Haven't a clue - just know the school I was in last yr was asti and filled two posts at the end of the yr. one was defintely on senority cosmost staff were not at all pleased one person got a post and i remember gumblings about the "flipping seniority"😏

RH149

My understanding of it is that the first of these posts gets filled under the old system and the rest will be open competition.
I think we're only getting one AP post despite losing four APs through retirement in the last three years, so it will be on seniority. Moral isn't great at the moment with all our timetables getting flooded with S&S so its just as well that there will be no fighting over the post!

ethical

Thanks for all your replies.I'm just thinking that in the interests of fairness and equality I do not see this as a fair or of equal process,why,because realistically any school worth their salt will endeavour to give one post to persons that are not a post holder already so as to add more manpower to their middle management team.Is there not a conflict here? Are you as an employer going to 'mark down' a Special Duties teacher at interview in order to get another extra member onto your team.Surely this conflict must be looked at more closely,is it legal to not treat all candidates fairly in a competition like this?

annamarie2013

Based on Seniority for the first post; how does that work?

rainbowtrout

ethical wrote: »

Thanks for all your replies.I'm just thinking that in the interests of fairness and equality I do not see this as a fair or of equal process,why,because realistically any school worth their salt will endeavour to give one post to persons that are not a post holder already so as to add more manpower to their middle management team.Is there not a conflict here? Are you as an employer going to 'mark down' a Special Duties teacher at interview in order to get another extra member onto your team.Surely this conflict must be looked at more closely,is it legal to not treat all candidates fairly in a competition like this?

This is something I considered when the moratorium came in and Special Duties posts are now a thing of the past. From a management point of view it would be the most logical thing to do, from a fairness and eqaulity thing, definitely not.

Having said that, many posts historically were awarded on seniority and I'm sure anecdotally teachers on here could probably say that the majority of posts currently held in their schools (including SD posts) are held by the longest serving members of staff.

So even though the marking scheme for post interviews has changed to reduce the skew towards seniority, a person who already holds a post would more than likely have more years done than the non post holder in many cases and also would probably pick up marks in the area of experience. I'm not sure what the official headings are but before I got my post I held an acting post the previous year, and there was a space on the application form for filling 'previous/current posts held/experience' so I presume marks go for that as well.

A Special Duties teacher would have to be seriously under marked for a non post holder to score higher than them at the interview and they do have the right to appeal it.

rainbowtrout

annamarie2013 wrote: »

Based on Seniority for the first post; how does that work?

The person who has the most years done gets it, more or less.

annamarie2013

Is this what generally happens in common practice?

rainbowtrout

annamarie2013 wrote: »

Is this what generally happens in common practice?

Hard to tell the last few years what is happening in schools with the moratorium on posts. Some posters on here have told of situations in their staffrooms that when the notice goes up about an available post, it's considered to belong to the most senior person on staff without a post, regardless of ability to carry out the duties etc, and woe betide the person who dares apply for it. In some staffrooms you would be ostracised for applying for a post you are not 'entitled' to.

On the other hand I got my post based on merit and certainly not seniority. There were people there at least 10 years longer than me who didn't get it at the time.

RH149

I think posts have always been allocated on seniority in Voluntary Secondary Schools until now. Other teachers could apply but it was a given that the most senior person would get it ,provided that they were deemed suitable for a post (as in any post). That's changed now but part of the union agreement was that the first post would be awarded under the old system and the new open comp. kicks in after that.