Emirates A380 into Dublin?

Neilw

A neighbour who reads a fair amount about Irish aviation mentioned there was an Emirates A380 due into Dublin sometime soon.
Aparently it's to see how the airport can handle one as Emirates may start using one on their routes.

Any truth in this?

vicwatson

Maybe ask your neighbour when it is due in.?

Neilw

vicwatson wrote: »

Maybe ask your neighbour when it is due in.?

I did, he didn't know exactly.

lord lucan

There was a rumour based on a tweet about a month ago saying the same but it all went quiet fairly quickly after that. Could have been a wind up or some other info misconstrued,who knows?!

lord lucan

lord lucan wrote: »

There was a rumour based on a tweet about a month ago saying the same but it all went quiet fairly quickly after that. Could have been a wind up or some other info misconstrued,who knows?!

Most likely a rumour, I wouldn't imagine the DAA would appreciate the disturbance in the middle of the busy summer schedule.

I imagine it will be well flagged by handlers etc who have to plan and buy/borrow equipment to handle it, refuel it etc.

Dublinflyer

There are no plans for an A380 at the moment that I have seen.

vonbarracuda

There's a billboard up on malahide road saying they are gonna start a daily double service . So probably just another 777

lovelyhurler

I Know that I'm only an amateur follower of this tread, but from what I know, the existing runways strength can't handle a fully laden A380 take off roll. Also, no stands at present can handle an A380.

Dublinflyer

It's more the length that's the issue not the strength. In saying that the runway foundations do need a serious piece of work done. And we do have stands that can handle an A380.

Tenger

lovelyhurler wrote: »

I Know that I'm only an amateur follower of this tread, but from what I know, the existing runways strength can't handle a fully laden A380 take off roll. Also, no stands at present can handle an A380.

The airport can handle an A380 if required. However scheduled service would require a bit of juggling in terms of ground movements. Runway length is only an issue if the A380 is going long range. A fully laden A380 on a shorter journey can lift from DUB.

Dublinflyer

Tenger wrote: »

However scheduled service would require a bit of juggling in terms of ground movements.

Juggling.....not sure if that's the word I would use to sort out the pandemonium it would cause! We looked at the logistics of one diverting into here right in the middle of the morning wave and to say it was not pleasant was an understatement.

billie1b

The most simple solution is the west apron and buses, would cause no problems, there's a few airports it already operates in by bus

lovelyhurler

we do have stands that can handle an A380.

My bad.
Typical of the way brain is working today. Just assumed that you needed 3 airbridges to load an A380. Of course you can do it with a double airbridge.

Dublinflyer

billie1b wrote: »

The most simple solution is the west apron and buses, would cause no problems, there's a few airports it already operates in by bus

That might work as a once off for a diversion but not as a daily thing. Getting that many pax from the terminal to the west apron, assuming it was a full flight, via buses would present some big challenges. You would have to navigate some busy taxi ways and a potentially active runway. There are also issues with the west apron from a security point of view.

Dublinflyer

Dublinflyer wrote: »

Juggling.....not sure if that's the word I would use to sort out the pandemonium it would cause! We looked at the logistics of one diverting into here right in the middle of the morning wave and to say it was not pleasant was an understatement.

Dublin can barely handle any wide body being off schedule about a month ago the American 767 was 3-4 hours late and as a result lost it's stand so they were left waiting for well over an hour for another stand at T2.

FuzzyDunlop100

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Emirates sent an A380 to one of the Scottish cities (Glasgow/Edinburgh) a while back -as an advertising/marketing gimmick when they opened a new route.

Dublinflyer

Deleted User wrote: »

Dublin can barely handle any wide body being off schedule about a month ago the American 767 was 3-4 hours late and as a result lost it's stand so they were left waiting for well over an hour for another stand at T2.

Any busy airport will have this kind of issue with wide bodies but this happens a bit here in Dublin as the airline or handling agent will always prefer to wait for a T2 gate rather than park somewhere else like the 300's as they would have to tow the aircraft to the CBP stand once they unload. This is down to the pre-clearance here that compounds the transatlantic operation.

It's very frustrating for the passengers but it is what it is.

markpb

billie1b wrote: »

The most simple solution is the west apron and buses, would cause no problems, there's a few airports it already operates in by bus

Really? Wouldn't a fully laden a380 required a small fleet of buses to serve it? Not to mention the extra time taken to get passengers and cargo between the terminal and a remote stand.

Irish Steve

There could well also be "significant" issues with things like steps if a 380 has to be put remote, tow bar for push back, (I can remember a DC8 came in on a diversion, and in the end, it was pulled off stand using cargo straps round the main gear, as there were no longer any push back bars on station), then there's the capacity of the tug to push the thing, ground power, and possibly high loader issues depending on the height of the cargo hold entrances, as well as possibly issues with things like availability of baggage bins and cargo pallets.

As it's not a normal regular visitor, there would also have to be extra crew on the ramp to handle it, and to make very sure that everything is done correctly, in every respect. Even things like toilet and water service would be an issue, as there's probably zero information in the handling company office on things like the location of connection points, unless there's been a significant improvement in that side of things, it was a nightmare when I used to work on the ramp if an non standard aircraft had to be handled.

It also used to be a nightmare when operators like Onur air A300's were coming in, there were never enough bins on station, so that meant they outbound bags couldn't be loaded until the inbound bags had been offloaded, the bins emptied and returned to the aircraft, the bins then had to be loaded on the ramp, which was a recipie for significant delays.

I seem to recall reading that only one gate at DUB can handle a 380, on T2, so that's another issue, depending on the time of day it comes in. If the operator then wants to do publicity photos and the like, the time on stand could be significantly longer than would normally be needed for a turn, which WILL have knock on effects.

So, bottom line, if one was coming any time soon, someone WOULD have heard about it by now.

Boulevardier

On a related point, does anyone know if 787 Dreamliners are coming here anytime soon, and if so, who is flying them?

billie1b

markpb wrote: »

Really? Wouldn't a fully laden a380 required a small fleet of buses to serve it? Not to mention the extra time taken to get passengers and cargo between the terminal and a remote stand.

It wouldn't be fully laden as DUB can't handle that, its done in other international airports with buses, DUB would just have to adapt, the buses could use the cityjet hangar taxiway and forward and back would be about a 5 minute drive each way, if 16/34 is in use they can use the perimeter road adding about 5 minutes onto the journey, im nearly sure the Goldhofer AST-1x handles the A380 which both EI and Swissport have. Nothing is impossible, DUB just needs to adapt

Dublinflyer

billie1b wrote: »

It wouldn't be fully laden as DUB can't handle that, its done in other international airports with buses, DUB would just have to adapt, the buses could use the cityjet hangar taxiway and forward and back would be about a 5 minute drive each way, if 16/34 is in use they can use the perimeter road adding about 5 minutes onto the journey, im nearly sure the Goldhofer AST-1x handles the A380 which both EI and Swissport have. Nothing is impossible, DUB just needs to adapt

OK, nobody is saying that buses could not service the a380. The issue is getting pax from the terminal building to the west apron. The peri road is a non runner as if you have ever driven it you would know a bus of that size would not fit, cars hardly fit at some points. During low vis operations it's closed to all traffic, except fire and rescue. If the rescue helicopter is getting ready to go traffic is also restricted.

If you are driving on the taxi ways you can get caught up in all sorts of issues and again in low vis only certain people are allowed out there and they need to be RT trained and transponders fitted.

You are right, nothing is impossible but sometimes highly impracticable.

billie1b

Dublinflyer wrote: »

OK, nobody is saying that buses could not service the a380. The issue is getting pax from the terminal building to the west apron. The peri road is a non runner as if you have ever driven it you would know a bus of that size would not fit, cars hardly fit at some points. During low vis operations it's closed to all traffic, except fire and rescue. If the rescue helicopter is getting ready to go traffic is also restricted.

If you are driving on the taxi ways you can get caught up in all sorts of issues and again in low vis only certain people are allowed out there and they need to be RT trained and transponders fitted.

You are right, nothing is impossible but sometimes highly impracticable.

I have driven the peri road on a bus, I actually did my training on a bus for the peri road, again its not impossible, you're throwing out ideas that are possible in situations already handled in the airport in different occasions, not all vehicles have to be RT fitted, I could be the lead vehicle and call to cross Papa 1, Papa 2 to the west Apron with 4 buses in tow. There are many different procedures in place to handle different types of vehicles. Its never impossible as we both said but I dont think its highly impractical either, thats why procedures are there to handle different scenarios.
Also just for clarification, im not attacking anyone personally here

Dublinflyer

I am not sure what your definition of the peri road is but crossing the foxes to Papa 1, Papa 2 and Mike 2 to get to the west apron is not the Peri road. The Perimeter road runs along the outer boundary of the airfield and does not include any taxi ways. I can tell you that in the 10 years I have worked here passenger operations are strictly forbidden on what I call the Peri road. Also the thought of trying to use M2 for busses would be intresting as its the primary route aircraft will use for 10.

Also agreed, nothing personal here. Just shooting the breeze on a slow afternoon.

billie1b

Yeah i'm not talking about the taxiways, im talking about the perimeter road that starts opposite the Ryanair hangar, I did my training for it on a bus and then a tug too, from the entrance all the way round the back of 16/34 to the fire station and back again. I also got stuck on the peri road one day in a tug, I entered it and just after they closed it due to low vis procedures, was funny

Dublinflyer

I think I know the one you are talking about, the fuel trucks all use it. It has the rather grand title of the inter stand road, at least that's what we call it. That can take buses without issue.

Regardless of where it would be parked, it would be great to see an a380 here. It would make the place seem very small

BonkeyDonker

Or, and here is a crazy idea - bring it in at a time that would allow reasonable turn around times at a contact stand - especially if it was only a once off.

billie1b

Yeah would be great too see, still have to keep on dreaming though, I doubt it will be any day soon

billie1b

Just to clear up any confusion, here is a picture of the aerodrome, if you go to the top right corner and just under the key you will see wrote 'engine test site 3', this here is where the peri road starts and continues around the airfield, tha back of 16/34 to the fire station, its the 2 black continous lines, this is what we call the perimeter road and is the road I did the training on with a bus a tug, I have also seen fuellers use it to fuel up planes parked remotely on the west apron.

lord lucan

FuzzyDunlop100 wrote: »

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Emirates sent an A380 to one of the Scottish cities (Glasgow/Edinburgh) a while back -as an advertising/marketing gimmick when they opened a new route.

Emirates usually send an a380 in to mark the 10th anniversary of a route.

eatmyshorts

The main obstacle is taxiway dimensions. Some of them would require filleting in order to accommodate the 380 gear geometrics.

Dublinflyer

This conversation is jut going in circles so this will be the end of it for me. Now that you can see the map at least we are agreeing on where the peri road is, not the inner road you were talking about before. The peri road at a lot of points is just about wide enough for two standard vehicles to pass each other and if you are heading in the direction of the fire station there is an incredibly tight right turn where you have slow right down to make it around, if there are two vehicles meeting at this point one has to wait. Have a look on on Google earth and you will see what I am talking about. Anybody who believes that either a tug that can weight over 20 tons and 15 feet wide, or a 60 foot long bus can use this part of the road is delusional. It's also just a standard road and does not have the foundations to support such heavy traffic on a regular basis.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I am not sure how long it has been since you is your training but this has been the way for the road for the 5 odd years I have been in an operational dept. but may have been different before that.

Dublinflyer

eatmyshorts wrote: »

The main obstacle is taxiway dimensions. Some of them would require filleting in order to accommodate the 380 gear geometrics.

We have done computer simulations and apart from the windsock the computer says the 80m wingspan will fit. None of here believe that. The general believe here is that if it landed on 10 and exited at echo 2 it would not be too bad. If it came in on 28 getting it down the bravos would be entertaining.

I've seen 40fts use the peri but lately they get escorted across the airfield directly so I guess that speaks of the peri road capacity. The recent submission to CAR had the entire road being rebuilt.

I imagine IF the A380 was to come on a test flight the DAA would hope it landed 10 and took off 28. There is plans to fillet certain taxiway turns but like most other airports only certain routes could be used by the A380 (yellow routes only http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-F9C45B2427542425969F832C33A09A5B/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLL_2-3_en_2014-07-24.pdf )

Irish Steve

Hate to rain on the parade, I've just checked the AIP information, and right now, there are in fact 0 stands at DUB that are officially capable of taking a 380, the largest wingspan that can be accommodated is in the 300's, at 74mtrs, and the 380 is 80, so on that basis, to get a 380 in will mean massive problems, special escorts, and all manner of other shenanigins to make it fit. The T2 stands are even more restricted, most of them are 65 Mtrs, so even more limited

What's even more damning of the DAA is that there are no stands on T2 that can take a 380, despite the recency of the design of the terminal, and the awareness of the plans to introduce the 380 in to service, which predate the terminal by a number of years. Having just looked at the DAA sites, it's somewhat incredible how sparse the information on their site is in relation to what can or can not be accommodated.

There's not an easy stand to put a 380 on, if I was pushed, I'd be looking at somewhere remote like 118C or 119C, on the basis that there's enough space behind and around to get it in and out again without too much pain, but the inner taxiway would have to be restricted due to the length while it was on stand. 110 might work, but getting round the corner to TWY 6 might be problematic, depending on clearances from fixed fittings.

There's enough length available on some of the T2 stands, but the wingspan is a problem, and given the wide body pressure that's already on the T2 stands, it would be better usage of space to use the remote option for a 380, assuming that the handlers have steps that can reach the lower deck doors. Access in and out of the 118/119 area would be relatively easy, using 16/34 and P2 to get to the central apron, then somewhere between the F inner and outer using a follow me vehicle to ensure wing tip clearances.

I have to wonder at the way that some of these issues are being managed. Over nearly 30 years, I've had experience of using Dublin as a pilot, aircraft operator, passenger, air side worker and technician, and looking at that experience, I can't say I've been impressed, for a large, busy international airport, there are so many issues that are just not good.

I won't derail this thread by going into some of them now, suffice to say that I have to wonder what the DAA management agenda is, they seem to be focussed on completely the wrong areas of their task, which is to provide a good experience for the travelling public, and in that area, I'm sorry, but they are failing in so many ways.

Dublinflyer

Stand 401c is certified for use by the A380. Both EK and EY were in discussions about bring in one as a once off so wanted this information. But you are right there has been a lack of foresight on the design and it would seriously impact the stands beside it. There is a plan for the 300's to become an A380 pier as there would be enough room for the pax but this is purely a paper exercise. I suppose at the time of design, and today, there was no interest from the airlines in using the A380 and lets not forget the restrictions on the runway when it comes to the big bird. I would guess that at the design time they were considering the CBP operation and how to get the most out of it's use. That has worked out really well so far.

As for other issues and problems in this place.......do not get me started!

Saint Sonner

What type of Emirates plane currently flies the Dublin Dubai route?

Irish Steve

401C, I'd be more than interested to watch a push back of a 380 from there to an acceptable engine start position, Apron T4 or F2 probably) it would need a darn good tug driver and some switched on wing walkers to be sure that it's OK.

I was very much involved in push and tow work before T2 and Pier 1, back when the 50's were the storage area for things like US airways, and the like, and getting off those stands with a 330 and back on to the B pier stands was at times more than challenging, given the relative angles etc, but that's another story

I won't get you started, in that while I'm VERY sure that we'd be able to fill a whole thread with "issues", getting them changed would be a very different story.:mad:

Irish Steve

Irish Steve wrote: »

I won't get you started, in that while I'm VERY sure that we'd be able to fill a whole thread with "issues", getting them changed would be a very different story.:mad:

Actually I think that would be a great thread/topic. Highlight to everyone the issues associated with Dublin and the completely balls of an airport it is. Especially with the DAA's insistence on building everything in the central area.

Tenger

Irish Steve wrote: »

...What's even more damning of the DAA is that there are no stands on T2 that can take a 380, despite the recency of the design of the terminal, and the awareness of the plans to introduce the 380 in to service, which predate the terminal by a number of years........

A mate asked the question about A380 compatibility when she got the pre-opening staff orientation tour of T2 back in 2009 (..ish?) Answer was along the lines of "I'm not sure but I'm sure its been factored in" Granted the tour guide was just a lowly DAA operative given the task of babysitting airline staffers.

Dublinflyer

Tenger wrote: »

A mate asked the question about A380 compatibility when she got the pre-opening staff orientation tour of T2 back in 2009 (..ish?) Answer was along the lines of "I'm not sure but I'm sure its been factored in" Granted the tour guide was just a lowly DAA operative given the task of babysitting airline staffers.

I have always got the impression that the A380 here is one of those things that works on paper but if it was tried for real it would be an absolute nightmare to manage.

Irish Steve

Tenger wrote: »

A mate asked the question about A380 compatibility when she got the pre-opening staff orientation tour of T2 back in 2009 (..ish?) Answer was along the lines of "I'm not sure but I'm sure its been factored in" Granted the tour guide was just a lowly DAA operative given the task of babysitting airline staffers.

From earlier messages, it looks like a 380 can be squeezed into 401, with some resultant restrictions on what can then be put on 400 & 402, but it won't be nice, there would be all manner of issues getting it on and off stand due to wingtip clearance issues, and I wouldn't envy the tug driver the job of getting it off stand again, it would need some very accurate centre line finding, and the turns to put it somewhere suitable to then do the engine starts would be challenging.

At some stage, DAA are going to have to bite the bullet of deciding how the airport is going to grow long term, and to me, that would require that the 28R position be finalised, with the appropriate taxi and link paths determined, and when that's been done, and the appropriate safety clearance zones determined, some serious work on how to best use the space that's left needs to be done.

Yeah, this next bit may drift a bit, but it will be relevant to making the place suitable to handle A380 size loads in comfort, which it wouldn't right now.

At some stage, now that the original terminal is a listed building and therefore a permanent fixture, some of the other older buildings are going to have to be removed, with the occupants relocated to more suitable areas, the old EI Tech building, and the smaller hangars is the main area for review, and at some stage, like it or not, Hangar 6 is likely to end up being remodelled into some form of terminal facility, with the hangars being relocated to less critical areas, either between the runways, or on land that's North of 28R, or south of 28L, and if that means redirecting some of the minor roads in those areas, it's going to have to be done, the Irish Economy is a darn sight more important than having 2 roads that are close to the runways.

Another issue that's been ignored to all intents is a proper cargo and associated ramp facility, the present scenario is so out of date and inappropriate, it's not even funny, the distances to the cargo area from the western areas is a nightmare, and we've all seen the sorts of hassles that can happen when trains of cargo dollies have to be dragged across numerous drains on the ramp.

The road access system is a disaster, the roundabout at the main entry needs to be upgraded to have free flow to and from the M1 motorway, a newlands cross style overpass over the roundabout is the answer, and the departure road on T1 needs to be changed to segregate passengers from the car and bus park (to get rid of the delays on the roadway), and to put the through lane down the middle., with the left and right sides being the stop to drop off areas, way too often, the leftmost drop off lane is inaccessible because of the number of parked vehicles in the middle lane (often taxis waiting for their booked passenger), which causes more problems.

All of these issues are relevant to bigger volumes at DUB, (which is one of the driving factors that will bring A380's to Dublin) and we keep hearing that Ireland is desperately in need of more tourism, and to make that happen, the experience has to be pleasant, and not the hassle that all to often it is right now.

So many other issues.....................Not here though.

sharkman

An old thread I know .BUT ......

Have it from a VERY good source .. Emirates have conformed A380 will be operating the Evening slot Starting Next March ...:):)

flazio

Has there been work on Dublin runways in order to allow this plane to run?

FuzzyDunlop100

sharkman wrote: »

An old thread I know .BUT ......

Have it from a VERY good source .. Emirates have conformed A380 will be operating the Evening slot ...:):)

Starting when?

sharkman

FuzzyDunlop100 wrote: »

Starting when?

Starting Next March .

FuzzyDunlop100

sharkman wrote: »

Starting Next March .

That's great news

Didn't realize the route needed extra capacity

flazio

flazio wrote: »

Has there been work on Dublin runways in order to allow this plane to run?

No work required on the runway itself, some taxiways need extra shoulders and some stands need modification.

FuzzyDunlop100

FuzzyDunlop100 wrote: »

That's great news

Didn't realize the route needed extra capacity

Not as much as Emirates need somewhere to send their ever increasing fleet of A380's. But this should drive an increase in passengers in itself.

billie1b

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No work required on the runway itself, some taxiways need extra shoulders and some stands need modification.

I believe the are adjusting some 300 stands for her

billie1b

billie1b wrote: »

I believe the are adjusting some 300 stands for her

I heard it was a 300 stand and a 400 stand.