Is the old boys club view of the legal profession accurate or outdated

DS86

I am wondering if there is any point in choosing to study a subject like Law as opposed to say IT or Finance if a person does not have contacts, comes from a wealthy background etc. I am interested in Law as a subject, however one of the things that is putting me off studying it is of the impression out there that the legal profession is still pretty much an old boys club where contacts and wealth matter more than say interest and working hard in college and earning a place in the field in the way you can do in other fields.

Is it genuinely true that the legal profession is still pretty much off limits to people from non-wealthy and well connected backgrounds, or is this idea an outdated one?

Bepolite

Contacts are required in Law the same as IT or Finance. You build your contact base during your undergraduate degree if you don't already have one. Law is 'customer facing' if you don't have people skills you will struggle.

As for wealth - to a certain extent that's correct, you're going to need someway of supporting yourself during a relatively long training period and in the case of a barrister while you build your practice. A training contract with a solicitor might, if you are lucky, be paid at minimum wage. (There is a legal requirement for this but bear in mind your Blackhall fees and competition for roles may mean that some take the risk ref pay.)

As for FE-1s and undergrad - simply study for the FE-1s using the manuals from day one, you'll sail through your undergrad exams.

EDIT: Bear in mind a Law degree is not required for the FE-1s. You can always do a degree in finance, with or without some element of law then cram for the exams.

conorh91

Wealth is more important than contacts; no more than in any profession where professional exams are required.

Contacts are a boost, but are not fatal.

But you need to have some kind of financial backing to put yourself through the professional exams, be they the Inns or the Law Society.

I have met a few *qualified* barristers from poor socio-economic backgrounds, but never a practicing one.

If you can't afford it, apply your skills elsewhere.

DS86

conorh91 wrote: »

Wealth is more important than contacts; no more than in any profession where professional exams are required.

Contacts are a boost, but are not fatal.

But you need to have some kind of financial backing to put yourself through the professional exams, be they the Inns or the Law Society.

I have met a few *qualified* barristers from poor socio-economic backgrounds, but never a practicing one.

If you can't afford it, apply your skills elsewhere.

How much do the FE1's actually cost to do? Would having a university degree mean that all I'd have to before becoming a solicitor's apprentice would be the FE1's?

Santa Cruz

Contacts in every profession are important but ability is more important. If you get a reputation for doing a good job in any particular area e.g familiy law, criminal law etc. the work will come to you. There are of course ordinary standard solicitors who because of family connections get run of the mill legal work but that also happens across the board

Pro Hoc Vice

conorh91 wrote: »

Wealth is more important than contacts; no more than in any profession where professional exams are required.

Contacts are a boost, but are not fatal.

But you need to have some kind of financial backing to put yourself through the professional exams, be they the Inns or the Law Society.

I have met a few *qualified* barristers from poor socio-economic backgrounds, but never a practicing one.

If you can't afford it, apply your skills elsewhere.

I am a practicing barrister of 10 years, and would consider my self from a poor socio-economic background, there is also a barrister in practice from the traveller community, and I know a number of barristers from very average to poor backgrounds in practice.

Bepolite

DS86 wrote: »

How much do the FE1's actually cost to do? Would having a university degree mean that all I'd have to before becoming a solicitor's apprentice would be the FE1's?

FE-1s are required to gain access to Blackhall. FE = Final Examination. You need a degree prior to sitting the FE-1s, it can be in basket weaving though.

Barristers require an approaved Law degree or the Diploma from the Inns. OP have you decided what route you want to go down? (Barrister / Solicitor). It's not fatal if you haven't. There are worst wastes of time than doing a Law degree for the criac.

Grolschevik

Suggest this as a candidate for the FAQ sticky thread. Hasn't been asked in a while, but it does recur regularly.

Grolschevik

Suggest this as a candidate for the FAQ sticky thread. Hasn't been asked in a while, but it does recur regularly.

Sala

The fe1s aren't expensive by themselves 100 or 120 per exam. The course in Griffith Etc are a few hundred per subject but you don't have to do one to sit the exams. Blackhall is expensive. If you get into a big fee paying firm you'll be fine - otherwise you will pay yourself and ppc1 is €9-10k

I had no contacts and it took me a long to get a position but I did it. In my opinion experience is key. Lots of ppl in blackhall were assistants, secretaries etc in law firms before getting a TC

DS86

Thanks for the help people. Just a few more questions regarding becoming a Lawyer, or working with a Law degree in Ireland,

(a) Is it illegal to establish a solicitor's business that provides legal advice to the public without sitting the FE1 exams at Blackhall, or avoiding any of the other stages listed by the Law Society in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

(b) Likewise, can a person enter the Legal advice profession without sitting through a 2 year training apprenticeship? e.g. Be accepted into a firm, or through establishing your own business?

(c) Is everything listed on the "How to become a solicitor in Ireland" PDF. mandatory in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

(d) What are some good jobs a person with a Law degree from a University can get if becoming a solicitor through the Law society route is not a feasible option?

Pro Hoc Vice

DS86 wrote: »

Thanks for the help people. Just a few more questions regarding becoming a Lawyer, or working with a Law degree in Ireland,

(a) Is it illegal to establish a solicitor's business that provides legal advice to the public without sitting the FE1 exams at Blackhall, or avoiding any of the other stages listed by the Law Society in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

(b) Likewise, can a person enter the Legal advice profession without sitting through a 2 year training apprenticeship? e.g. Be accepted into a firm, or through establishing your own business?

(c) Is everything listed on the "How to become a solicitor in Ireland" PDF. mandatory in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

(d) What are some good jobs a person with a Law degree from a University can get if becoming a solicitor through the Law society route is not a feasible option?

To practice law legally in ireland one must either be a solicitor on the roll or a barrister admitted to the bar. If a person has the required qualification in another jurisdiction they can be admitted here if the follow certain steps. Yes it is illegal to practice as a solicitor if not on the roll.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/en/act/pub/0036/sec0055.html#sec55

Bepolite

DS86 wrote: »

(d) What are some good jobs a person with a Law degree from a University can get if becoming a solicitor through the Law society route is not a feasible option?

Its essentially an Arts degree albeit at the more useful end of the spectrum. It will get you on to many graduate programs, will be useful in anything to do with business management etc. Coupled with a good MBA (problem with this is cost) it's a fast track to a senior business management role.

If you're struggling financially there are scholarships available as well as bank loans. It's also not impossible to work and do the bar (barrister route) at the same time, although you're not meant to. The solicitor route might be more problematic.

Sala

DS86 wrote: »

Thanks for the help people. Just a few more questions regarding becoming a Lawyer, or working with a Law degree in Ireland,

(a) Is it illegal to establish a solicitor's business that provides legal advice to the public without sitting the FE1 exams at Blackhall, or avoiding any of the other stages listed by the Law Society in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

(b) Likewise, can a person enter the Legal advice profession without sitting through a 2 year training apprenticeship? e.g. Be accepted into a firm, or through establishing your own business?

(c) Is everything listed on the "How to become a solicitor in Ireland" PDF. mandatory in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

(d) What are some good jobs a person with a Law degree from a University can get if becoming a solicitor through the Law society route is not a feasible option?

What exactly are you trying to do? You can't skip the qualification process but act as a solicitor. If you qualify abroad there are ways to skip the apprenticeship and be recognized here I believe, but if money is an issue then that isn't an option either. If you want to be a solicitor you should do everything you can to put yourself in a position to be hired by a large fee paying firm.

With just a law degree you can get all sorts of jobs - civil service, legal departments, but you won't be a lawyer. You could get a job in a firm as a clerk /assistant/ secretary or paralegal.

Bepolite

Just to +1 the above. You might consider coming in from the paralegal side. You can do something like the ILEX course, get a paralegal job and work your way in that way.

Depending on the firm some paralegals (rightly or wrongly) are treated as junior solicitors and the pay scales can eventually become quite attractive. Plus if you want to work your way 'up' to solicitor the right firm will support you in that.

partyguinness

conorh91 wrote: »

Wealth is more important than contacts; no more than in any profession where professional exams are required.

Contacts are a boost, but are not fatal.

But you need to have some kind of financial backing to put yourself through the professional exams, be they the Inns or the Law Society.

I have met a few *qualified* barristers from poor socio-economic backgrounds, but never a practicing one.

If you can't afford it, apply your skills elsewhere.

Okay, I would have to hazard a guess and say you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you are good enough you will get there. That is one of the positive attributes in Ireland. If you have the apptitude and dedication you will qualify and practice regardless of your socio economic background.

I remember my career guidance teacher telling us that there is no point whatsoever in doing law unless your family was well conected. Period. Like most career guidance teachers, she was talking through her ass.

I personally know many 'practising' barristers and solicitors who are not connected and wealthy and even are the first in their family to even go to university.

They got the points, went through the degree, passed Fe1 and took out a loan to pay for Blackhall and secured a training contract.

Of course if you are from a wealthy background, you will have similarily wealthy social circles and friends. Likewise Daddy will have bankers, accountants and lawyers amongest his circle of friends, hence when little darling needs a training contract, Daddy can put in a few enquiries which may bear fruit. Yes of course that happens. But I also know teachers and guards who used 'pull' to get favourable schools and interviews because their parents/brothers went before them. Of course if little darling didnt get the points, they can be sent to some quasi third level institution like Griffith College to buy their qualification.

Thankfully it's not like in England, where contacts and money are far more important.

partyguinness

DS86 wrote: »

(a) Is it illegal to establish a solicitor's business that provides legal advice to the public without sitting the FE1 exams at Blackhall, or avoiding any of the other stages listed by the Law Society in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

Yes

DS86 wrote: »

(b) Likewise, can a person enter the Legal advice profession without sitting through a 2 year training apprenticeship? e.g. Be accepted into a firm, or through establishing your own business?

Well, yes. You could try the 'paralegal/legal exec' route. Basically start out as the office goofer and try to assume more responsibilty but you will still have to undertake the mandatory training and qualifications.

You cannot set up your own business. You may try to spin but ultimatley you will get caught. How will you take out PII?

DS86 wrote: »

(c) Is everything listed on the "How to become a solicitor in Ireland" PDF. mandatory in order to be admitted to the roll of solicitors?

If it says so then yes.

DS86 wrote: »

(d) What are some good jobs a person with a Law degree from a University can get if becoming a solicitor through the Law society route is not a feasible option?

As mentioned, a law degree like the vast majority of degrees does not 'qualify' you to do anything without further training. That's why I chuckle at the term 'qualification' when referring to a degree.

OP I have to worry about your line of questionning, what is it you are trying to achieve? Some more background info might help.

conorh91

partyguinness wrote: »

I personally know many 'practising' barristers and solicitors who are not connected and wealthy and even are the first in their family to even go to university.

Yeah but that's not what I said, is it?

Poor is not a synonym for not wealthy.

Maybe I should have qualified my definition of poor, but I am talking about someone who would have grown up in consistent poverty, or where the family would live on state supports, or where there is no more than 'survival money' in the house.

If someone is living in those circumstances, then it is wrong to put the idea out there that they are likely to make it at the Bar if they try hard enough.

It's not impossible, and i don't doubt that these people exist, but of people i know practicing at the bar, I merely say that I don't know anyone who falls into the above category.

partyguinness

conorh91 wrote: »

Yeah but that's not what I said, is it?.

You said

conorh91 wrote: »

I have met a few *qualified* barristers from poor socio-economic backgrounds, but never a practicing one.

I posted that I do know practising lawyers who are not well connected or wealthy. Now you can split hairs on our definition of poor socio-economic background.

I'll rephrase: I do know practising lawyers from poor or shall I say, less traditional socio-economic backgrounds. Admittedly, they are in the minority but with the right intellect and guidance it is done on a regular basis.

partyguinness

conorh91 wrote: »

Maybe I should have qualified my definition of poor, but I am talking about someone who would have grown up in consistent poverty, or where the family would live on state supports, or where there is no more than 'survival money' in the house.

TBH, in the main, it's highly unlikely that someone in the situation you have described actually having the ambition or means to even finish secondary school let alone third level and Blackhall/King's Inn. Their fate was sealed at birth, I'm sorry to say.

conorh91

partyguinness wrote: »

I'll rephrase: I do know practising lawyers from poor or shall I say, less traditional socio-economic backgrounds. Admittedly, they are in the minority but with the right intellect and guidance it is done on a regular basis.

I don't mind you saying you know them, since it was never contested that these people exist.

However, "regular basis" is stretching it.

partyguinness wrote: »

Their fate was sealed at birth, I'm sorry to say.

I have personal friends in the Gardaí and in various professions who came from what can reasonably be described as poverty.

The reason this is generally less likely in law is nothing to do with the attitudes of legal professionals; it is simply a reflection of the fact that you need to be self-financing for a number of years after you qualify; working and making money don't go hand-in-hand at the outset, as in most other professions and careers.

retroactive

I asked a similar question an age ago. Here is the link - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78034065

I'm a qualified barrister but the costs of practice have proven too high for me so I'm plying my skills elsewhere

Pro Hoc Vice

conorh91 wrote: »

Yeah but that's not what I said, is it?

Poor is not a synonym for not wealthy.

Maybe I should have qualified my definition of poor, but I am talking about someone who would have grown up in consistent poverty, or where the family would live on state supports, or where there is no more than 'survival money' in the house.

If someone is living in those circumstances, then it is wrong to put the idea out there that they are likely to make it at the Bar if they try hard enough.

It's not impossible, and i don't doubt that these people exist, but of people i know practicing at the bar, I merely say that I don't know anyone who falls into the above category.

You know one now.

partyguinness

conorh91 wrote: »

I don't mind you saying you know them, since it was never contested that these people exist.

However, "regular basis" is stretching it.

I have personal friends in the Gardaí and in various professions who came from what can reasonably be described as poverty.

The reason this is generally less likely in law is nothing to do with the attitudes of legal professionals; it is simply a reflection of the fact that you need to be self-financing for a number of years after you qualify; working and making money don't go hand-in-hand at the outset, as in most other professions and careers.

Yeah 'regular' is stretching it.

TBH, I know certain people but I can't say I am personal friends or grew up with anyone in poverty or who lived off state benefits. I was friends with one guy in university, who was not poor, but was certainly 'working class' and unfortunately he was quite self conscious about it. After drinks, he would start mouthing off at the more stereo typically privately educated guys in the class.

As I grew up in a rural area, thankfully we were all essentially the same and spared the trauma/chip on the shoulder mentality/inferior complex that the city folk were immersed in. I just looked on in amusement.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

Just my 2c. If you get hired by the top 5 law firms training will not cost you anything. If you get hired by some of the big English firms, you can make more in the first year of your training contract than an average middle class Irish family makes. Many possibilities in law.

DS86

Caden Nice Self-defense wrote: »

Just my 2c. If you get hired by the top 5 law firms training will not cost you anything. If you get hired by some of the big English firms, you can make more in the first year of your training contract than an average middle class Irish family makes. Many possibilities in law.

Would you need to pass all of the FE1's first in order to get hired by the top 5?

Also, I'm wondering (a) what is the cost of the FE1 exams overall? and (b) do all 8 exams have to be done at the same time, or can you take on certain exams at different times along the way, e.g. take 4 exams in 2015 and the rest a year or two after that? Or is this not possible?

Bepolite

DS86 wrote: »

Would you need to pass all of the FE1's first in order to get hired by the top 5?

Also, I'm wondering (a) what is the cost of the FE1 exams overall? and (b) do all 8 exams have to be done at the same time, or can you take on certain exams at different times along the way, e.g. take 4 exams in 2015 and the rest a year or two after that? Or is this not possible?

Top 5 do hire without FE-1s passed AFAIK how usual this is I don't know. Search for the 'Milkrounds' threads here for some insight into hiring and experiences. A very small percentage make it into a top 5 firm.

Look at the FE1 thread for more info of the FE1s. IIRC its 4 need to be passed in one sitting then you can break them up say 2 and 2. Bear in mind all the while you are having to do something else to make ends meet as you are very unlikely to be working for a solicitors firm at that point. There are two sittings a year so the above break down would take 18 months.

I'm open to correction on a lot of the above - I'm not going down that route. If I wanted an office job I'd stay where I am :pac:

conorh91

Bepolite has answered the issue of exams. The costs issue is difficult to estimate.

The cost of becoming a solicitor "overall" is probably in excess of €30k, if you're not from Dublin, from the time you start out with FE1s.

Some people would say that's a gross under-estimation.

All-in, it's probably cheaper to go down the Kings Inns, route.

You can cross over and practice at a solicitor quite easily, and without undergoing any academic assessment, although you have to have been in legal practice at the Irish Bar for three years, and pay a fee of about €3k, which probably rules out any 'professional arbitrage', so to speak.

DS86

Bepolite wrote: »

Top 5 do hire without FE-1s passed AFAIK how usual this is I don't know. Search for the 'Milkrounds' threads here for some insight into hiring and experiences. A very small percentage make it into a top 5 firm.

Look at the FE1 thread for more info of the FE1s. IIRC its 4 need to be passed in one sitting then you can break them up say 2 and 2. Bear in mind all the while you are having to do something else to make ends meet as you are very unlikely to be working for a solicitors firm at that point. There are two sittings a year so the above break down would take 18 months.

I'm open to correction on a lot of the above - I'm not going down that route. If I wanted an office job I'd stay where I am :pac:

Thank you for this response. Regarding the point made in the second paragraph, aka. the 4-2-2 route toward completing all 8 exams. Do they have to be chosen in the following order...


(1) Company Law
(2) Constitutional Law
(3) Law of Contract
(4) Criminal Law
(5) European Union Law
(6) Equity
(7) Real Property
(8) Law of Tort

...so that I'd have to sit the first four in that list in my first sitting, and the rest in the order after that? Or could I just pick from them randomly, and the exams to suit what I would be learning in University?

Also the degree I have been accepted onto for the next 2 years, and am giving consideration to is the following...

Master of Legal Science - Professional (2 years) at NUI Maynooth

Year 1 Modules

LEGAL SKILLS
INTRODUCTION TO LEGAL SYSTEMS
ADMINISTRATIVE LAW
CONTRACT LAW
LAW OF TORTS
CRIMINAL LAW
EVIDENCE
CONTRACT LAW II
LAW OF TORTS II
COMPANY LAW

Year 2 Modules

EU LAW
LAND LAW
JURISPRUDENCE
EU LAW II
LAND LAW II
EQUITY AND TRUSTS
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW II
COMPANY LAW
EQUITY AND TRUSTS II
JURISPRUDENCE II

...any personal opinions of this degree would be of great help, and if it is really worthwhile doing. It is a 2 year degree including all of the above modules, which are all mandatory. Also if anybody could explain the following statement on the webpage, it would be of great help,

"It is an exempting law degree for Ireland and is accredited by the Honorable Society of King's Inns."

Would this mean that it is more geared toward the Barrister route, or could you still go down the FE1's and solicitor route in future?

Bepolite

Any law degree that isn't accredited by the KI would raise a flag for me in all honesty. It's not that it would necessarily be bad, but could miss a required element such as Juris. None of them are really geared towards practice in either profession.

There is no order that you have to take the FE1s in (AFAIK). If you already have an undergraduate degree just do them alongside your masters as they come up.

What kind of sadist teaches Admin law before Constitution I don't know

DS86

Bepolite wrote: »

Any law degree that isn't accredited by the KI would raise a flag for me in all honesty. It's not that it would necessarily be bad, but could miss a required element such as Juris. None of them are really geared towards practice in either profession.

There is no order that you have to take the FE1s in (AFAIK). If you already have an undergraduate degree just do them alongside your masters as they come up.

So I can pick and choose which of the eight exams to do and in the 4-2-2 format, so that I can sit the exams relevant to what I'm learning as I'm going through college?

Also in all honesty, are such postgraduate Law degrees from universities of any use, even if informally the help you get a better understanding of the law and the legal system?

Bepolite

DS86 wrote: »

So I can pick and choose which of the eight exams to do and in the 4-2-2 format, so that I can sit the exams relevant to what I'm learning as I'm going through college?

Also in all honesty, are such postgraduate Law degrees from universities of any use, even if informally the help you get a better understanding of the law and the legal system?

Any use is a broad term. More useful than spending a few weeks at Griffith/City/Independent colleges doing a prep course might be a better question. One I can't answer, you'd need to look at the material. Obviously two years full-time will allow you to get involved in extracurricular activities such as; mooting, debating, FLAC etc. etc. that will help you build contacts. You might even submit a paper or two.

Alternatively you can just use the time to drink and shag about in the right circles which is just as effective as the above. I'm fat, ugly and married so had to choose the former.

EDIT Realistically given the above you'd need to do 4 / 4.

Sitting One September 2015

Contract
Tort
Company
Criminal

Sitting Two September 2016

Equity
EU
Con Law
Real Property (Land Law)

Otherwise you'll be looking at the March April 2017 sitting.

Actually looking at the above I see the break down - You'll get shown that law is a simple set of rules, all of which are relatively new. (Contract, Tort, Criminal and Company) then you'll get your mind blown with Equity and Juris - looks like they've put Constitutional and EU in there just to be cruel.

DS86

Bepolite wrote: »

Any use is a broad term. More useful than spending a few weeks at Griffith/City/Independent colleges doing a prep course might be a better question. One I can't answer, you'd need to look at the material. Obviously two years full-time will allow you to get involved in extracurricular activities such as; mooting, debating, FLAC etc. etc. that will help you build contacts. You might even submit a paper or two.

Alternatively you can just use the time to drink and shag about in the right circles which is just as effective as the above. I'm fat, ugly and married so had to choose the former.

EDIT Realistically given the above you'd need to do 4 / 4.

Sitting One September 2015

Contract
Tort
Company
Criminal

Sitting Two September 2016

Equity
EU
Con Law
Real Property (Land Law)

Otherwise you'll be looking at the March April 2017 sitting.

Actually looking at the above I see the break down - You'll get shown that law is a simple set of rules, all of which are relatively new. (Contract, Tort, Criminal and Company) then you'll get your mind blown with Equity and Juris - looks like they've put Constitutional and EU in there just to be cruel.

So if this is the case would it be better to just do the 1 year HDip at Maynooth where you can choose any modules you want to and cover as much of the relevant FE1 material, and then go over anything not covered there at Griffith - as opposed to doing a 2 year degree such as the above?

Santa Cruz

partyguinness wrote: »

TBH, in the main, it's highly unlikely that someone in the situation you have described actually having the ambition or means to even finish secondary school let alone third level and Blackhall/King's Inn. Their fate was sealed at birth, I'm sorry to say.

Certainly those in poor circumstances from birth will find it tough. But it is not impossible. You will need good parental support, ambition and ability. All you have to do though is look at the second generation of immigrants from Africa, Asia etc in the UK and see the advances they have made in the professions.
I have found Irish educational facilities are very proactive with students from disadvantaged areas once they can see parental support and student willingness to work.

NoQuarter

Two points on the above:

Whilst the large firms do hire without the fe1s done, you have to complete them before you actually start in the firm. So you might get hired for a slot 2 years in advance and you have that 2 years to complete them. Generally the large firms will recruit 2 years in advance.

Secondly, if you don't already have some form of degree, you cant sit the fe1s. Even if you're simultaneously doing a law degree. So your above plan will not work if you don't already have some degree.

Pro Hoc Vice

NoQuarter wrote: »

Two points on the above:

Whilst the large firms do hire without the fe1s done, you have to complete them before you actually start in the firm. So you might get hired for a slot 2 years in advance and you have that 2 years to complete them. Generally the large firms will recruit 2 years in advance.

Secondly, if you don't already have some form of degree, you cant sit the fe1s. Even if you're simultaneously doing a law degree. So your above plan will not work if you don't already have some degree.

Non graduates can do the preliminary examination and then sit the FE1's. I am not advising any one to take that route as its hard enough to do blackhall to do so with out any third level experience would in my opinion be very difficult.

Some non graduates can even be exempted from the preliminary exam.

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Public/Become-a-Solicitor/Preliminary-Examination/

Bepolite

I presume he has an undergraduate degree on the basis of him doing postgraduate study.

cobhguy28

partyguinness wrote: »

Of course if little darling didnt get the points, they can be sent to some quasi third level institution like Griffith College to buy their qualification.

What do you mean by Buy their qualification? Hows is a degree form their any different form any where else.

NoQuarter

cobhguy28 wrote: »

What do you mean by Buy their qualification? Hows is a degree form their any different form any where else.

He means those degrees are in private, fee-paying colleges where the leaving cert points to get in are much lower than Trinity/UCD.

In general, a degree from Griffith/Independent Colleges is not regarded as highly as Trinity/UCD etc but having one is certainly no bar to achieving anything you want in law.

Bepolite

cobhguy28 wrote: »

What do you mean by Buy their qualification? Hows is a degree form their any different form any where else.

Griffith and the other private colleges use the QQI (previously known as HETAC) quals and are paranoid about cheating and exam standards. Unlike say some other institutions where cheating is rampant. (Hint: Three letter acronym not involving a T and not out towards Glasnevin.) No one buys their degree, although as I've always admitted spoon feeding is not uncommon. No more that buying a KI or FE-1 Manual though. The accusation is a common one leveled by people with a chip on their shoulder who generally have no clue what they're on about.

There are plenty of barristers and solicitors out there with GCD degrees doing very well for themselves, not everyone engages well in their mid-teens with the 'don't think for yourself and learn this off by heart Seamus' Irish education system and therefore do not score the points to 'proper' university - or as close as we get to it here outside of TCD.

Bepolite

DS86 wrote: »

So if this is the case would it be better to just do the 1 year HDip at Maynooth where you can choose any modules you want to and cover as much of the relevant FE1 material, and then go over anything not covered there at Griffith - as opposed to doing a 2 year degree such as the above?

Honestly I can't advise you, other than get an old FE-1 manual (€25 at most on adverts) and look through it and consider how hard it would be to learn it off. Without any support I think it could be tough but I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw.

If I was to take a punt I'd advise you to do the Dip at the Inns (what I wished I'd done in some ways). You'll get an excellent grounding in law and have see what the Inns can offer you. Do you really want to be a solicitor anyway

In all seriousness though, and I mean this with the greatest of respect, you didn't seem to have done much research before you got here - you're sure it's the solicitor route you want to go down? I realise it probably seems more financially secure, I wouldn't let that make or break my decision though.

DS86

Bepolite wrote: »

Honestly I can't advise you, other than get an old FE-1 manual (€25 at most on adverts) and look through it and consider how hard it would be to learn it off. Without any support I think it could be tough but I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw.

If I was to take a punt I'd advise you to do the Dip at the Inns (what I wished I'd done in some ways). You'll get an excellent grounding in law and have see what the Inns can offer you. Do you really want to be a solicitor anyway

In all seriousness though, and I mean this with the greatest of respect, you didn't seem to have done much research before you got here - you're sure it's the solicitor route you want to go down? I realise it probably seems more financially secure, I wouldn't let that make or break my decision though.

Thanks for the reply. I was wondering how does the Diploma in Law at Blackhall compares to the degree at Kings Inn?

Grolschevik

Degree at the Inns is a 'proper' degree.

The Law Society Diploma in Law is designed for people who want a bit of general background in law-- managers, civil servants, NGO personnel. It's basically CV fodder for most, a useful basis for some.

The two are in no way comparable.

Oh, and the Law Soc one doesn't qualify you for anything. It's a part time year long thing.

DS86

Grolschevik wrote: »

Degree at the Inns is a 'proper' degree.

The Law Society Diploma in Law is designed for people who want a bit of general background in law-- managers, civil servants, NGO personnel. It's basically CV fodder for most, a useful basis for some.

The two are in no way comparable.

Oh, and the Law Soc one doesn't qualify you for anything. It's a part time year long thing.

Thanks for the reply, I am wondering if you'd know anything about the following,

(a) Would this degree from King's Inn help me with the FE1 exams if I ever sit them, and if so - how?

(b) Does Kings Inn have a student loan system, and if so, how does it work? And what is the maximum time frame that the €4,975 fee can be paid back over?

(c) If it's a level 9 course, would it effect my ability to get the full SUSI funding for say a Masters degree in another area for the academic year 2015-16?

Pro Hoc Vice

DS86 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I am wondering if you'd know anything about the following,

(a) Would this degree from King's Inn help me with the FE1 exams if I ever sit them, and if so - how?

(b) Does Kings Inn have a student loan system, and if so, how does it work? And what is the maximum time frame that the €4,975 fee can be paid back over?

(c) If it's a level 9 course, would it effect my ability to get the full SUSI funding for say a Masters degree in another area for the academic year 2015-16?

(A) at the end of the BL you are a qualified barrister why would you then start FE1's.

(B) I think the full fee must be paid at start of year, but best check that with the Kings Inns.

(C) as far as I know it counts as a postgrad and so may effect funding for grants but best to ask SUSI.

DS86

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

(A) at the end of the BL you are a qualified barrister why would you then start FE1's. .

I was referring to the Diploma in Legal Studies, not the Barrister-at-Law degree. Also isn't the latter, the only way to become a Barrister in Ireland? It doesn't really matter to me, because I'm not really looking to go down the Barrister route.

Bepolite

I can see where the confusion crept in just to clarify, the Inns runs a diploma course, arguably (from second hand info) the best two year law course running. It's primary focus, however, is to prepare people for the BL course which can be done over 1 or 2 years in addition to the two year diploma.

Pro Hoc Vice

DS86 wrote: »

I was referring to the Diploma in Legal Studies, not the Barrister-at-Law degree. Also isn't the latter, the only way to become a Barrister in Ireland? It doesn't really matter to me, because I'm not really looking to go down the Barrister route.

The kings inn degree is the BL, not sure what help the Diploma from Kings Inn would be I doubt many do the KI diploma and then go onto Blackhall, but you may never know someone may have.

extra gravy

Will the system here ever be overhauled? You fork out thousands for a degree which usually entails no practical experience and then have to shell out another €20-30,000 just to qualify as a solicitor. Great if you have a bottomless pit of cash to work from.

Bepolite

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The kings inn degree is the BL, not sure what help the Diploma from Kings Inn would be I doubt many do the KI diploma and then go onto Blackhall, but you may never know someone may have.

Sorry it was me that introduced this particular winding road. OP in all honesty it doesn't matter where you study law, there are very few difficult concepts. If the reputation of the degree matters to you, have a search of some of the threads here. It might matter for the solicitor route, but realistically as my class from GCD have now finished not a single one of them has had difficulty finding something to move on to.

My class consisted of a great mix. People who had gone to 'proper' universities and prefered the small classes offered at GCD. A farmer who fancied a law degree and was also a gay rights activist. Several people from various common law African countries. A Latvian national who decided to mix sprogs, a BA in business and law and mastering English. A beautician who decided she wanted more and various leaving cert 'dossers' who matured in spades over the three years.

There's one or two gone the KI route, at least 20% have training contracts, one who is being fully funded to do his MBA in China (in Mandarin) and various other people doing postgraduate. Oh and one twat on boards at 2am.

Bepolite

extra gravy wrote: »

Will the system here ever be overhauled? You fork out thousands for a degree which usually entails no practical experience and then have to shell out another €20-30,000 just to qualify as a solicitor. Great if you have a bottomless pit of cash to work from.

In all honesty it's only ever going to get worse. The degree is vastly cheaper than any other common law country I can think of and the professional stage isn't that expensive either. The only other option would be to dramatically curtail the numbers entering into the profession and make the training stage livable. The problem with that is that you'll no doubt have a lot of people who do well academically but I'm not sure you'll improve the profession or foster diversity.

EDIT: One idea that I know has been bandied about is that the KI and Blackhall should not have a monopoly on training lawyers. I'm not sure I agree personally. The thing with what we term a 'law degree' here and in the UK (I include Scotland as that's where I started) is that it's really an Arts degree focusing on Law. There isn't really a place for clinical skills until the professional stage, at least outside of extracurricular.

The only way we could really overhaul is to adopt the US system of postgrad law and see proper 'law schools' spring up and then a 'bar exam' to check competence. Never gonna happen though.