Sending Out Demos

keithkk16

Hey guys
I've only really started to properly push out my music this summer and I'm looking for some tips on what's the best way to send demos to labels and Dj's.

I've sent out a few emails to labels but they haven't even opened the email never mind listened to the songs. Is it just a waiting game or luck that a label might actually open an email?

Also if anyone could mention a few housey Irish labels, that would be great. I only know of two atm

paulo6891

Did you send a link in the email?

keithkk16

paulo6891 wrote: »

Did you send a link in the email?

Yes. I sent private soundcloud links to a few.

Labarbapostiza

keithkk16 wrote: »

I've sent out a few emails to labels but they haven't even opened the email never mind listened to the songs. Is it just a waiting game or luck that a label might actually open an email?

A tip I've heard on this recently, is if they don't open the email, it means one of two things. One, they don't source their tracks from unsolicited email. There are good reasons why. The other is the label is defunct - and the emails are just clogging up an inbox that no one will ever check.

paulo6891

Send a different link to each label. That way you can see who listened to it

syntheticjunk

Don't expect that somebody will listen to you music. Especially big names.

paulo6891

syntheticjunk wrote: »

Don't expect that somebody will listen to you music. Especially big names.

I think most labels do listen, just don't send them any junk or else they'll know not to listen next time! I'd say some do black list producers...

Labarbapostiza

keithkk16 wrote: »

Yes. I sent private soundcloud links to a few.

Out of curiosity, who did you send to?

Not the whole list...just a taster

keithkk16

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Out of curiosity, who did you send to?

Not the whole list...just a taster

I'm only sending private soundcloud links as that's what labels like apparently. I sent a few demo's to Irish labels, like extended play, play it down etc and then a few dj's like Ejeca, Bicep etc. Thinking I'd have better luck with Irish people. Ejeca has listened to a few and a Irish label starting up in the new year has taken a fancy to some of my stuff so fingers crossed.

eviltimeban

That's about all you can do really. You can also build up a network of contacts, so get on Twitter and start following labels, DJs, producers, etc. Engage with them and get them interested in your music. Get them asking for your demo, rather than the other way around.

I'm in the same boat but I did actually get a label to release my album last year. Doesn't automatically mean you've "made it" though - you've got to sell the thing, promote it, get it reviewed, get it played. I was lucky with some radio play (2FM) and good reviews but it still didn't translate to much sales. Promotion is the key so if you've got a budget set it aside for that - video, decent website, merchandise even. Build up an image and get out there and push it. If you have the capacity to play live, get out and do it.

The key thing is have good tracks recorded well. So move up the scale from "demo" to "master". Send them something finished and well produced - labels won't use their imagination when listening to a half-finished demo. They want the final thing.

And good luck!

Labarbapostiza

eviltimeban wrote: »

Promotion is the key so if you've got a budget set it aside for that - video, decent website, merchandise even. Build up an image and get out there and push it. If you have the capacity to play live, get out and do it.

Electronic music is very different. Most of it has a deliberate facelessness to it., but there is another dimension to it that is all in your face promotion; Paris Hilton is now the highest paid DJ in the world. Most videos made for dance music are aimed squarely, at what are called in the dance world, the c***s. The typical plot of a dance music video is a girl stealing an attaché case, then being pursued by some bad guys, then catching up with her girlfriend, who she shares a long lingering flesbian kiss with. If the producer is lucky (or even unlucky), they get to appear as the twat driving the getaway speed boat (you're meant to imagine that once safely at sea, he'll have a ménage with the two flesbians). That's what the more artistic videos are like. More commonly it's some combination of a Ridley Scott inspired nocturnal urban landscape, an ethnic male (a scary but cool black guy), a young woman, some flesbians, gangland youths combatting each other in a break dance battle. But the video concept that has me clawing at my eyes, is the young people running along a beach in slow motion.

If you look at the beatport charts, the top ten is the heavily promoted carni acts. Martin Garrix, Afro Jack, etc. The music is only a tiny part of what their whole thing is about, they're the visible front for the rest of the stuff, which is about lights and fire works, and ****. Outside of the top ten, the music is largely there on its' own merit.


The updated, Brush Shiels, advice to kids who want to make it in de rock business. Go on facebook, go on twitter, spam your friends, spam your mam, get them to spam their friends and their mams. If image is important to you, desperate spammer is not a good look. If you went to school with someone who's now working in RTE, get them to squeeze you into some incredibly naff television show. You'll get loads of exposure; like a flasher on O'Connell street....And will you look naff? oh no, no, no, no, no.

The key thing is have good tracks recorded well. So move up the scale from
"demo" to "master". Send them something finished and well produced - labels won't use their imagination when listening to a half-finished demo. They want the final thing.

If you can create the "final thing" without a record company. What do you need a record company for?

paulo6891

If you can create the "final thing" without a record company. What do you need a record company for?

Promotion.

But record deals are worthless unless the record companies are amongst the biggest around. No point getting signed to any 'ol record label because they probably won't have the contacts in place to get you legions of followers or plays by the biggest DJs around. I don't even bother with the lesser-successful labels.

This is just my opinion.

SuprSi

Paris Hilton is the highest paid DJ in the world? Now that's depressing.

eviltimeban

SuprSi wrote: »

Paris Hilton is the highest paid DJ in the world? Now that's depressing.

Nope, its Calvin Harris - $46 million in 2013.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eeel45eljlk/1-calvin-harris-46-million-7/

Then Tiesto, Guetta, SHM, Deadmau5, Avicii, Afrojack, Armin Van Burren, Skrillex... no sign of Paris Hilton.

paulo6891

I'd say a lot of that list would be down to sales though. A lot of it is possibly 'guess work' too since many of the DJs have come out and said that they earn nowhere near that kind of money!

keithkk16

Some of you guys are mentioning a lot of big names and how they work, that's not the way I want do things at all. I'm not really doing this for money, more in it for fun and to hopefully to get more gigs if I ever do get something released. I'd be focusing more on independent labels and non commercial djs. I'd say I listen and play out a lot of stuff from underground/independent labels or whatever you wanna call them, I hate trying to label stuff. It seems the way it works with most of those labels is once you have a good song and it starts to do the rounds you start getting gigs and that's how most djs/producers I like are making money. Even if you're a **** Dj and your song is doing well you'll get gigs, for example Cyril Hahn.

eviltimeban have you a link to the album to listen? How did you go about getting your stuff heard at the start?

eviltimeban

keithkk16 wrote: »

eviltimeban have you a link to the album to listen? How did you go about getting your stuff heard at the start?

Well... I don't want to be seen to promote myself on this thread, but since you asked... the link in my sig is to my website, and there's music, videos etc there.

Basically I researched a couple of labels, found one that seemed to fit based on their other releases, sent some tracks with an email and that's how the process started.

We didn't get huge sales or anything but I got good reviews and even last night Dan Hegarty on 2FM played one of the tracks... that's what being on a label can do, it just makes it all a bit more "legit" when it comes to radio / reviewers / bloggers etc. Rather than just some guy with a few mp3s.

Labarbapostiza

eviltimeban wrote: »

Nope, its Calvin Harris - $46 million in 2013.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eeel45eljlk/1-calvin-harris-46-million-7/

Then Tiesto, Guetta, SHM, Deadmau5, Avicii, Afrojack, Armin Van Burren, Skrillex... no sign of Paris Hilton.

Yep, Forbes, the cool cats in the know.

Deadmau5 spoke about that article when it came out. It's just the Forbes guys pulling figures out of their holes on a wet Wednesday.

The big names, and this will explain something about the Beatport top ten too, for the big shows, they only get 10 to 20% of the take. They're the faces for the carnivals.

Paris Hilton is in a much better position because she's not signed to a record label, and doesn't need them. If she can claim a 100% fee for an appearance, she doesn't have to do a 90% 10% split with anyone. So her fee can be much lower than her boyfriend's (Afrojack), but she'll earn more.

Labarbapostiza

keithkk16 wrote: »

I'm not really doing this for money, more in it for fun and to hopefully to get more gigs if I ever do get something released.

Doing it for the buzz is the only way of doing it really; if you get a buzz, and someone else does from it, you have made the world a better place. The indie band members tend to want fame over anything else; including money. They have a sadness and sickness about them.......And they have that crazy look in their eyes.

I'd be focusing more on independent labels and non commercial djs. I'd say I listen and play out a lot of stuff from underground/independent labels or
whatever you wanna call them, I hate trying to label stuff.

Think of it this way; that you're like a screen writer. If you write a horror film, you take it to the people who produce horror films. If you do a romantic comedy, the same....well not the same...the people who make romantic comedies, not horror films.

It seems the way it works with most of those labels is once you have a good
song and it starts to do the rounds you start getting gigs and that's how most djs/producers I like are making money. Even if you're a **** Dj and your song is doing well you'll get gigs, for example Cyril Hahn.

That's the interesting thing about this whole thing. You could get a call from Russia over a track next to no one bought, to come DJ, and they'd pay you and pay for the flight. .....That doesn't happen to indie acts......I believe most of this happens completely by accident

eviltimeban

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

So her fee can be much lower than her boyfriend's (Afrojack), but she'll earn more.

Fair enough.

eviltimeban

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

That's the interesting thing about this whole thing. You could get a call from Russia over a track next to no one bought, to come DJ, and they'd pay you and pay for the flight. .....That doesn't happen to indie acts......I believe most of this happens completely by accident

Probably because they only need to get one guy over, with not as much equipment, compared to 4 or 5 guys with amps, drums, etc.

seannash

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

That's the interesting thing about this whole thing. You could get a call from Russia over a track next to no one bought, to come DJ, and they'd pay you and pay for the flight. .....That doesn't happen to indie acts......I believe most of this happens completely by accident

You could but its very very unlikely you will. You might get some gigs based in Ireland I reckon so his strategy of looking for Irish labels is probably best if hes looking for gigs as he might get label nights or something.
If his goal is internationally then more recognised labels are the only way I think. Its fairly pricey to get someone over to get them to play if they dont think someone has heard of him and he can draw a small crowd.

Its unfortunately not about how good of a dj you are anymore either.

Labarbapostiza

seannash wrote: »

You could but its very very unlikely you will.

My experience in life is that the very very unlikely, happens to the most unlikely people.

If his goal is internationally then more recognised labels are the only way
I think. Its fairly pricey to get someone over to get them to play if they dont
think someone has heard of him and he can draw a small crowd.

It is the most international form of music there ever has been. And I think internationally they're booking DJ's to keep their clubs fresh, not as name draws. Where in Ireland they're booking people from Geordie shore, or Tallifornia, to hand out jelly shots, at Dixie's Mullingar, with Micko spinnin' up the disks; a sound track to your finger and a shift. Foster and Allen to a disco beat.

Its unfortunately not about how good of a dj you are anymore either.

I've always wanted to call up a few wedding DJs and see what they charge. I think they're mostly taxi drivers who lost their PSV licence after getting on the sex offenders registry.

seannash

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

My experience in life is that the very very unlikely, happens to the most unlikely people.



It is the most international form of music there ever has been. And I think internationally they're booking DJ's to keep their clubs fresh, not as name draws. Where in Ireland they're booking people from Geordie shore, or Tallifornia, to hand out jelly shots, at Dixie's Mullingar, with Micko spinnin' up the disks; a sound track to your finger and a shift. Foster and Allen to a disco beat.




I've always wanted to call up a few wedding DJs and see what they charge. I think they're mostly taxi drivers who lost their PSV licence after getting on the sex offenders registry.

Fair enough, I don't think were going to agree on this one as to me your points are slightly unrealistic. However the OP is free to take advise of whoever he pleases

eviltimeban

There's a difference between being a DJ playing records and a "DJ" who also makes music.

If OP is trying to do something with his own music, then it would be a different approach.

One way to start would be to look at the kinds of labels that do compilation CDs and maybe try and get a track on one of them. It could get picked up by other DJs and get played in clubs, if he can't get in the club to play it himself.

jiltloop

eviltimeban wrote: »

Well... I don't want to be seen to promote myself on this thread, but since you asked... the link in my sig is to my website, and there's music, videos etc there.

Basically I researched a couple of labels, found one that seemed to fit based on their other releases, sent some tracks with an email and that's how the process started.

We didn't get huge sales or anything but I got good reviews and even last night Dan Hegarty on 2FM played one of the tracks... that's what being on a label can do, it just makes it all a bit more "legit" when it comes to radio / reviewers / bloggers etc. Rather than just some guy with a few mp3s.

Fair play to you on getting discovered. I remember you posting up an album for free here. I downloaded it and found it very impressive. I still give it a listen every so often.

The label you approached were a good fit to your music as well I think. I think that with a combination of hard work and finding the right label, the last obstacle is having good music. You had good quality music that definitely has your own sound and I'm delighted you've had some success.

eviltimeban

jiltloop wrote: »

Fair play to you on getting discovered. I remember you posting up an album for free here. I downloaded it and found it very impressive. I still give it a listen every so often.

The label you approached were a good fit to your music as well I think. I think that with a combination of hard work and finding the right label, the last obstacle is having good music. You had good quality music that definitely has your own sound and I'm delighted you've had some success.

Thanks so much! Appreciate the comments. The difficult part is actually promoting the damn thing. Its all well and good getting a deal, and having the music, but getting it out there is the real challenge.

I'm in the same boat as the OP in some ways, I want the next album release to be a little bigger. I'd like the chance to do vinyl, also get some reviews in magazines and the like. Very hard to get that to happen without a decent promotion budget.

jiltloop

eviltimeban wrote: »

Thanks so much! Appreciate the comments. The difficult part is actually promoting the damn thing. Its all well and good getting a deal, and having the music, but getting it out there is the real challenge.

I'm in the same boat as the OP in some ways, I want the next album release to be a little bigger. I'd like the chance to do vinyl, also get some reviews in magazines and the like. Very hard to get that to happen without a decent promotion budget.

No problem. They're genuine comments. I seem to remember you tried a mono e.p too if I'm not mistaken?

How much promotion do the label leave up to you as a matter of interest? How involved are they in the promotion? Do they mainly just provide the contacts?

I suppose I would have imagined that once you had the label you could kind of take a back seat a little bit with that side of it.

Labarbapostiza

seannash wrote: »

Fair enough, I don't think were going to agree on this one as to me your points are slightly unrealistic. However the OP is free to take advise of whoever he pleases

There really isn't any realism to any of this. Just as an example, take Sasha. He was just a kid who happened to be playing the disco records at the Hacienda. Because he was a kid who would just take less money than the other guys who played disco records in night clubs. He just happens to be there at a point in time, that no one could predict or work towards, where it went in a split second from fat girls dressed as Robert Smith doing their cure dance to Morrissey records, to football whistles and glo sticks. The first time you take ecstasy, any DJ sounds like the greatest in the world. After that, every other DJ you realise is just a guy playing records. But if you happen to be there at the point something like that happens, and not across town, getting paid more, and playing to people you think are cooler than the crowd who hung out at the Hacienda, you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one has control over any of this.

And Tiesto has a very similar story. And I'm sure they all have a similar story.

You can go to a swanky private school, get a cool hipster tat on your arm, get the twats you went to school with (who are now working in the media) to bang on about how you're the coolest DJ in Dublin......It will seem to work, for a few minutes....but it will be more like people who jump off buildings feel like their flying...initially. Yes, if you're mixes are really good, and there is something there, you could do well. But, if they are in fact miserable and made by a poseur who has no sense of music, and lacks even the talent to rip off good mixes, then not even your cute hipster dreads will stop gravity from wining.

seannash

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

There really isn't any realism to any of this. Just as an example, take Sasha. He was just a kid who happened to be playing the disco records at the Hacienda. Because he was a kid who would just take less money than the other guys who played disco records in night clubs. He just happens to be there at a point in time, that no one could predict or work towards, where it went in a split second from fat girls dressed as Robert Smith doing their cure dance to Morrissey records, to football whistles and glo sticks. The first time you take ecstasy, any DJ sounds like the greatest in the world. After that, every other DJ you realise is just a guy playing records. But if you happen to be there at the point something like that happens, and not across town, getting paid more, and playing to people you think are cooler than the crowd who hung out at the Hacienda, you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one has control over any of this.

And Tiesto has a very similar story. And I'm sure they all have a similar story.

You can go to a swanky private school, get a cool hipster tat on your arm, get the twats you went to school with (who are now working in the media) to bang on about how you're the coolest DJ in Dublin......It will seem to work, for a few minutes....but it will be more like people who jump off buildings feel like their flying...initially. Yes, if you're mixes are really good, and there is something there, you could do well. But, if they are in fact miserable and made by a poseur who has no sense of music, and lacks even the talent to rip off good mixes, then not even your cute hipster dreads will stop gravity from wining.

I hate to break it to you man but its not the 90's anymore. All those stories have no real relevance today. I'm sure there might be someone out there who recenly still made it that way but those are the very very small minority.
But as I said the OP has heard both of our opinions so there's not really much more to say.

Labarbapostiza

seannash wrote: »

I hate to break it to you man but its not the 90's anymore. All those stories have no real relevance today.

No, you're taking me up completely wrong. The point is not about them, or the 90s, the specifics of what happened to them. If what happened to Sasha had been a clear path to fame and glory, then there would have been hundreds of wannabees banging on the door of the Hacienda, to play for free, or even pay to play. Instead they were in bad Smiths rip off bands, banging on the door of the Hacienda to be allowed play there.

The time period or even the kind of music is irrelevant.

I'm sure there might be someone out there who recenly still made it that way but those are the very very small minority.

No, it will be different every time. But there will always be some weird fluke element to it. It just looks like there was a plan after the fact.

If I picked more recent DJs I could sound very bytchy when it comes to people mimicking them in the present with the hope of success. But the flukish ways things work, that might work for them.

eviltimeban

jiltloop wrote: »

No problem. They're genuine comments. I seem to remember you tried a mono e.p too if I'm not mistaken?

How much promotion do the label leave up to you as a matter of interest? How involved are they in the promotion? Do they mainly just provide the contacts?

I suppose I would have imagined that once you had the label you could kind of take a back seat a little bit with that side of it.

Well remembered, I did do a mono album! That was a different kind of music though, it was like 60s beat music, whereas I'm more interested in making ambient / electronic stuff now.

As for the label, well... I think most artists have issues with labels and promotion (La Roux was only in the news yesterday saying her label didn't promote her album to her satisfaction). I didn't go into the deal thinking I'd be getting billboards or full page ads, due to the size and nature of the label. The promotion was pretty much left up to me. They had contacts and about 50 promo CDs went out to them; that network helped with getting reviews and radio play etc. But it still didn't result in big sales.

On the other side, I'm inhibiting it a bit by not playing live. I don't really have the capacity to play live, nor am I entirely sure how I'd go about doing that music live! That's why I did some videos and trying to make it more like an art project with my own paintings / photos for album covers and keeping it going with new material and so on. I can't get out there and play it live so I need to find some other way to promote it - however that's where you hit the brick wall, and you need a bit of luck, like some sync or someone just picking up on a track and it gets bigger.

Also, I haven't made as much effort as I should have with social media. I've put effort into Twitter recently and I'm finding that has helped; I had 50 new followers this week! That's something OP needs to do as well, get on Twitter and research everyone who is doing what he wants to do and try and build up a network. People seem to respond on Twitter more than they do over email, for example.

So as I go into preparing to release the new album, I need to balance out my expectations of what I want a label to do for me, with their expectations about what I should be doing to promote it. If I put restrictions in place (ie no live work) then they may not be interested in promoting to the full extent. It has to be a symbiotic relationship with both parties doing their bit.

jiltloop

I find the info very informative thanks! I suffer from protaganism and a chronic inability to focus on and finish tracks unfortunately.

But in my head I think if I had the material and was able to finish my songs to the standard I'd aspire to, I would probably approach the same label and would also be in a similar position as yourself regarding live sets.

Your music is more something you would listen to while driving or relaxing at home and that would be the kind of music I would be aiming to make as well.

I like the way Boards of Canada's music and artwork fit together and I like the idea of matching artwork and photography with the music. They also very rarely play live and seem to specifically aim for home listening kind of music.

I would be delighted with the level of success you've had so far and it would really spur me on if I got that far. I was over the moon when Mick Chillage asked if he could play a couple of my tracks on his Chillage Idiots show but other than a handful of gigs and a song on a fledgling label startup compilation CD, that's as far as I've gotten.

eviltimeban

jiltloop wrote: »

I find the info very informative thanks! I suffer from protaganism and a chronic inability to focus on and finish tracks unfortunately.

That is the hardest part, especially about electronic music. When is it finished? I have a background in writing and recording more rock-oriented music, so I suppose I was able to put that practice into place and apply it with the electronic stuff.

Its about having a vision about what you want the song to be, listening to your work in progress over and over, away from the studio, and figuring out what you need to do next. Decide, is this a short song? A long song? Does it need more layers, more instruments, a better mix? Get a check list and work from that, or better still, learn from stuff you have completed - what worked, how did I do that, what can I carry forward to the next track?

keithkk16

Just got an offer today for a contract, but i'm not really sure what to do, should I just jump straight in and see how it goes or see if more offers come about. Anyone ever had to do up a contract before?

Labarbapostiza

keithkk16 wrote: »

Just got an offer today for a contract, but i'm not really sure what to do, should I just jump straight in and see how it goes or see if more offers come about. Anyone ever had to do up a contract before?

The general rule is never sign a contract unless you've had a lawyer to look at it. I'm not sure if there are any music business lawyers in Ireland. I'm sure there are in England. They might give it a quick glance over for free, with the expectation of getting business from you if or when more money is involved. You can call them, because they expect to get calls from people like you.

If you just jump right in, you may have signed something that screws you for life. And you may not get anything out of it now, but it may come back to haunt you. It's happened to lots of famous musicians, who signed contracts with companies who did nothing for them, but later when they started making money for someone else, they came along to make a grab

What's the contract for? A single release, or a Scientology ten thousand year contract?

keithkk16

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

The general rule is never sign a contract unless you've had a lawyer to look at it. I'm not sure if there are any music business lawyers in Ireland. I'm sure there are in England. They might give it a quick glance over for free, with the expectation of getting business from you if or when more money is involved. You can call them, because they expect to get calls from people like you.

If you just jump right in, you may have signed something that screws you for life. And you may not get anything out of it now, but it may come back to haunt you. It's happened to lots of famous musicians, who signed contracts with companies who did nothing for them, but later when they started making money for someone else, they came along to make a grab

What's the contract for? A single release, or a Scientology ten thousand year contract?

Atm I'm gonna hold off an shop around a bit more, but at the same time I'm gonna get someone to read over the contract when I get it and have a proper think about it. Hoping it's just a one time release atm like a 4 or 5 track ep then see what happens after it.

eviltimeban

It should specify on the contract exactly what you are releasing (single, album, multi-release etc), over what term (2 years, 5 years etc), what the percentages are, if there is any licencing split, and any other obligations by either party.

paulo6891

keithkk16 wrote: »

Just got an offer today for a contract, but i'm not really sure what to do, should I just jump straight in and see how it goes or see if more offers come about. Anyone ever had to do up a contract before?

congrats

Labarbapostiza

keithkk16 wrote: »

Atm I'm gonna hold off an shop around a bit more, but at the same time I'm gonna get someone to read over the contract when I get it and have a proper think about it. Hoping it's just a one time release atm like a 4 or 5 track ep then see what happens after it.

Are they offering you a contract on a specific track you sent out?

I assume that if they're fair dealing, most labels just have a boiler plate contract that covers just a release. If it's just one track they're interested in releasing.


Tell us the story of how you went about getting a label interested in the first place?

keithkk16

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Are they offering you a contract on a specific track you sent out?

I assume that if they're fair dealing, most labels just have a boiler plate contract that covers just a release. If it's just one track they're interested in releasing.


Tell us the story of how you went about getting a label interested in the first place?

I sent out 4 tracks, so it'll probably be all 4 on the release if it happens. I've been flat out sending tracks to people through email, soundcloud and fb, sending them to djs more than labels atm, got some advice from a few dj's giving me an idea of what labels would suit my sound and just went from there. I sent the label a few housey tracks during the week and they said they liked them and would I be interested in a contract. Told them I'd have a think about it. Waiting to hear what kind of contract it is first.

paulo6891

Do you mean radio DJs or club DJs? And if club DJs, what's the best way of finding them?!

keithkk16

paulo6891 wrote: »

Do you mean radio DJs or club DJs? And if club DJs, what's the best way of finding them?!

Club Djs, didn't even think about radio DJs myself. I sent tracks to mainly Irish Dj's that I like and just got lucky that they replied, not all Djs liked the tracks but said they were solid and they were able to advise me on where to send them to.