"Sorry, it's company policy"

FamousBelgian

My question is, how far can a company go in their dealings with customers by justifying anything and everything on their company 'policy'?

Yesterday I spent a lot of time on the phone to a company that can apply seemingly arbitrary and illogical conditions to its actions which ultimately cost their customers time and money without any comeback. Their published Terms and Conditions are so vague as to be meaningless and any request for comfirmation in writing of information given verbally is 'against company policy'.

For example, imagine a bank that could not give you your balance in writing so you have to call them up constantly to see if you are in credit. If you go overdrawn they penalise you but if you are in the black at the end of the month they 'expire' your money and start you from zero the following month. And all in line with company policy and T's+C's which are subject to change 'from time to time as may be advised' (but they don't advise you).

So, to whom to complain when a company goes too far with their 'policy'?

slimjimmc

They can probably go as far as they want so long as they're compliant with their legal and contractual obligations.

Do you have a specific consumer issue that you need help with?

srsly78

Your statutory rights are unaffected. This said, if the company has silly policies then take your business elsewhere.

stevemul

Media is a wonderful tool nowadays for the consumer.
Find their Twitter and Facebook details and ask them specific questions which will embarrass them. They will usually try to get you to contact them by PMs but don't be persuaded. Keep giving out their details which you're not happy with without divulging your personal details.
Also, try emailing their Press Office - tell them you will make the issues public.
I recently had a grievance with a " National Car Park" Company so I rang the Press Office and said I was a Freelance Journalist writing a News item for TV on Consumer Complaints against them. That got their attention!

dudara

OP - please provide some specifics. Right now, your post is so general as to be meaningless. No one can provide useful or helpful advice until they know more.

dudara

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

They can probably go as far as they want so long as they're compliant with their legal and contractual obligations.

Do you have a specific consumer issue that you need help with?

OK, I'll give the specific instance. It's for a prepaid mobile phone number. The operator requires a top up of credit on a regular basis. If the customer does not top up within a certain period then the number is made inactive until the customer adds credit to the account. Seems simple enough until you discover that the operator can shorten the period in which to top up and also the period in which it is possible to reactive the account and claim the frozen credit, and this without prior notice.
In my case a payment was made to reactivate the account thru an ATM but the account was not reactivated until I complained. Then it appeared that the payment from the ATM had been lost because, according to company 'policy', ATM payments made while inactive are not applied to the account. The net result was that the operator effectively kept the money without any notification of this. To me that seemed like theft.

It took some phone calls and a few concessions in the name of 'goodwill' but no acknowledgement that their policy actually allows them to silently <SNIP> customers' money.

Part of this is their abysmal technical support but they seem to allow for this with vague and outdated Ts+Cs which they can change 'from time to time' without notification. Written confirmation of anything verbally agreed is 'against company policy'.

My question is, how far can a company go with vague Ts+Cs and invoking 'policy' in refusing reasonable requests. In some countries merchants have little or no leeway in such matters and in this case would have to immediately revert the change to the account and refund the ATM payment because none of their actions was explicitly detailed in their T's+C's, policy be damned. I wonder if it's the same in Ireland.

FamousBelgian

stevemul wrote: »

Media is a wonderful tool nowadays for the consumer.
Find their Twitter and Facebook details and ask them specific questions which will embarrass them. They will usually try to get you to contact them by PMs but don't be persuaded. Keep giving out their details which you're not happy with without divulging your personal details.
Also, try emailing their Press Office - tell them you will make the issues public.
I recently had a grievance with a " National Car Park" Company so I rang the Press Office and said I was a Freelance Journalist writing a News item for TV on Consumer Complaints against them. That got their attention!

I agree but I don't want to name and shame. I'd just like to be able to say to them that they did so-and-so which is not explicitly in their Terms and Conditions and that they stole my money (OK, only e30 but it's my e30). I'd also like to be able to force them to show me chapter and verse of their company policy when they refuse a reasonable request, reasonable meaning figures confirmed in writing. Then send the lot to some ombudsman or other.

slimjimmc

If it's not stated in the T&C's then it is not an agreed term and therefore is most likely outside the terms of the contract. In that case I fully expect you would entitled to a refund, however I'm not aware of any obligation that this be done automatically. Mobile phone networks are regulated by Comreg, if you are unhappy with how a particular provider is operating you can register a complaint with them. http://www.askcomreg.ie/about_us/contact_us.26.LE.asp

Bepolite

FamousBelgian wrote: »

My question is, how far can a company go in their dealings with customers by justifying anything and everything on their company 'policy'?

So, to whom to complain when a company goes too far with their 'policy'?

As far as you let them.

There are a myriad of options open to you as a consumer in seeking recourse.

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

If it's not stated in the T&C's then it is not an agreed term and therefore is most likely outside the terms of the contract. In that case I fully expect you would entitled to a refund, however I'm not aware of any obligation that this be done automatically. Mobile phone networks are regulated by Comreg, if you are unhappy with how a particular provider is operating you can register a complaint with them. http://www.askcomreg.ie/about_us/contact_us.26.LE.asp

Thanks for the responses.

The Terms and Conditions I'm dealing with are http://www.vodafone.ie/terms/prepay/.

To me they seem so general as to be intentionally an excuse for obtuseness. Wherever there is a specific term mentioned (as in 8 months vaidity for prepaid numbers) it is overriden by the provision that it can change at any time. In my experience this has usually been in favour of the company. Also, I have never ever received an email or SMS informing me of a change to the T's+C's. When I ask on the phone for relevant conditions in writing I'm told that this is against company policy.

The end result is that you can pay them money in good faith and they keep the money without providing the expected service. They confirm this in a post on their support forum here on boards but I can not tie them down with the vague T's+C's.

My question is, is there some straightforward law that I can use to force them to refund money for a service they did not provide.

In other countries that I am more familiar with there is no need for a contract for a service like this because the consumer's rights are clearer and better protected by default and no contract can attempt to override them. In this case the operator would never be able to claim that they can change conditions 'from time to time' and certainly never without prior notification.

I've looked at comreg but it appears everything is assessed on a case by case basis so I have to pursue this with the operator first which gives them an opportunity to quote whatever terms and conditions and policies suit their case.

D3PO

Im not sure of the legal position here but I can understand why they would have this kind of policy on prepaid phones. If they are not being topped up its just a resource drain on the company and costing them money and they are getting no revenue in return.

Many companies charge for their utilities even if they are not being used.

Electricity - standing charge even if you use 0 watts
Banks - many have quarterly account charges even if no transactions are being made.

I dont think what Vodafone are doing is unreasonable which it appears you do, perhaps they should state in their T&C's that there is a charge to reactivate the number and in that way it is then very clear as opposed to the way the process works.

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

Im not sure of the legal position here but I can understand why they would have this kind of policy on prepaid phones. If they are not being topped up its just a resource drain on the company and costing them money and they are getting no revenue in return.

Many companies charge for their utilities even if they are not being used.

Electricity - standing charge even if you use 0 watts
Banks - many have quarterly account charges even if no transactions are being made.

I dont think what Vodafone are doing is unreasonable which it appears you do, perhaps they should state in their T&C's that there is a charge to reactivate the number and in that way it is then very clear as opposed to the way the process works.

I think you miss my point. I don't expect anything for free; Vodafone prices their overhead into the per-minute charges for their service so if you top up a certain amount you pay for all of this in advance. If you don't use the service and, after a reminder, they terminate the service and keep unused credit then that is OK if, and only if, this is made crystal clear in their Terms and Conditions. What Vodafone has done is deactivated an account earlier than specificied and simply <SNIP> the payment made to reactivate it.

Maybe you're used to this level of service; I certainly am not. But what I'm after is the legal basis for ending an agreed and paid for service early and then taking a further payment and simply keeping it, all without a single notification or advice.

dudara

The problem with a pre-paid phone is that you haven't paid for the service. You only pay for the service as you consume it.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

I think you miss my point. I don't expect anything for free; Vodafone prices their overhead into the per-minute charges for their service so if you top up a certain amount you pay for all of this in advance. If you don't use the service and, after a reminder, they terminate the service and keep unused credit then that is OK if, and only if, this is made crystal clear in their Terms and Conditions. What Vodafone has done is deactivated an account earlier than specificied and simply <SNIP> the payment made to reactivate it.

Maybe you're used to this level of service; I certainly am not. But what I'm after is the legal basis for ending an agreed and paid for service early and then taking a further payment and simply keeping it, all without a single notification or advice.

7.A minimum level of Call credit (as specified by Vodafone from time to time) must be applied to your Account at such intervals as Vodafone may specify from time to time.

Call credit may not be transferred to any third party account. If the equipment remains inactive or no call credit is applied for a period of 8 months or such other period as Vodafone may advise, all unused Call credit will be lost.

You have no argument as far as I can see they specifyin the T&C's that they may change the periods as vauge as you think that is.

Like I said I dont know for a fact and if you think you do then try and claim back this credit by going to small claims court.

As for how I deal with what I percieve to be bad service. I talk with my wallet and go to another providor.

FamousBelgian

dudara wrote: »

The problem with a pre-paid phone is that you haven't paid for the service. You only pay for the service as you consume it.

I'm not sure I follow you. If you pay for something in advance then you pay first and then consume. If you don't consume you've still paid and you don't get a refund. That's how a prepaid phone account works.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

what I'm after is the legal basis for ending an agreed and paid for service

its actually not a paid for service. The clue is in the name pay as you go.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow you. If you pay for something in advance then you pay first and then consume. If you don't consume you've still paid and you don't get a refund. That's how a prepaid phone account works.

Id liken it to a voucher. You havent paid for the service until you consume it. Said vouchers likely have an expiry date (now the legal basis of these are a whole diff discussion ! ) but if you dont use it you lose it as it were.

similar premise here.

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

its actually not a paid for service. The clue is in the name pay as you go.

They can call it whatever they like, Pay Before and Regardless Of Whether You Go would be more accurate. The name of a service does not constitute a legal contract and override one's statutory rights.

But I'm not arguing about having to pay for something. I'm trying to find out how a company can legally breach its own terms and conditions and then simply keep a further good faith payment from a customer which was made in accordance with their terms and conditions.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

But I'm not arguing about having to pay for something. I'm trying to find out how a company can legally breach its own terms and conditions and then simply keep a further good faith payment from a customer which was made in accordance with their terms and conditions.

Where has it breached it Terms & Conditions ?

One of the very first things in their T&C's is a mention that Vodafone can modify these T&C's

If you can point to a specific breach of their T&C's then take a small claims case.

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

Id liken it to a voucher. You havent paid for the service until you consume it. Said vouchers likely have an expiry date (now the legal basis of these are a whole diff discussion ! ) but if you dont use it you lose it as it were.

similar premise here.

But if you went to cash in a voucher and were told that they had brought forward the expiry date without telling you then you'd have what I'm facing.

And if they then said that if you buy another voucher that they will reinstate the old voucher until its published expiry date you could say that that was reasonable.

But if you pay money for the second voucher and then simply take your money and walk away leaving you with no vouchers you'd have my situation.

And then you spend hours on the phone and, as a goodwill gesture, they give you a new voucher without telling you how long it is valid then you'd have my situation.

Is this legal in Ireland?

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

Where has it breached it Terms & Conditions ?

One of the very first things in their T&C's is a mention that Vodafone can modify these T&C's

If you can point to a specific breach of their T&C's then take a small claims case.

That's the thing: how far can a merchant reserve the right to unilaterally change their terms and conditions? Surely it goes against any idea of a formal contract for the provision of a service.

Would you sign a contract that could change at any time without notifying you much less requiring your assent?

I'm waiting for Vodafone to get back to me and then I'll submit something to Comreg.

slimjimmc

FamousBelgian wrote: »

But if you went to cash in a voucher and were told that they had brought forward the expiry date without telling you then you'd have what I'm facing.

And if they then said that if you buy another voucher that they will reinstate the old voucher until its published expiry date you could say that that was reasonable.

But if you pay money for the second voucher and then simply take your money and walk away leaving you with no vouchers you'd have my situation.

And then you spend hours on the phone and, as a goodwill gesture, they give you a new voucher without telling you how long it is valid then you'd have my situation.

Is this legal in Ireland?

Can you be more specific on this. What is the published expiry and after what period was your account deactivated.

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

Can you be more specific on this. What is the published expiry and after what period was your account deactivated.

T's+C's say expiry after 8 months.

They expire after 180 days without any notice (except one SMS amid a sea of spam SMS's).

The account was topped up at an ATM but not reactivated.
A message on boards got it reactivated as a goodwill gesture.
Account was deactivated TWO weeks after the ATM top up.

Further time on the phone shows the ATM payment was never applied thus the money was effectively <SNIP>. Vodafone still asks for an immediate further payment. None of this is covered in their vague T's+C's.

Requests for written confirmation (by email) are stonewalled with the 'company policy' excuse.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

That's the thing: how far can a merchant reserve the right to unilaterally change their terms and conditions? Surely it goes against any idea of a formal contract for the provision of a service.
.

T&Cs arent an actually a formal contract though.

We can really only speculate here, but you do have avenues open to you.

If going through the complaints process with Vodafone doesnt satisfy you you then have the option to either compain to Comreg and or take out a small claims case.

A lot of hassle for what I suspect is €10 or €20 but if your that principled then fill your boots.

Personally Id complain to Vodafone if they don't respond in a way your satisfied with id go and port the number to another providor and be done with it.

slimjimmc

Thanks for the clarification, at least we can see what your complaint is and it seems you certainly do have grounds.
Your best approach is to send a written a complaint to Vodafone by registered post. In your letter be factual and concise, outline the above, state what you want and request a resolution within 10 working days. You should first confirm with your bank that the ATM transaction was successfully completed and money transferred to Vodafone. If you continue to get an unsatisfactory response you have the necessary records to go to Comreg. Yes they deal on a case by case basis (which is important to you) but if they find systemic issues they can deal with those too.

Orion

D3PO wrote: »

Where has it breached it Terms & Conditions ?

One of the very first things in their T&C's is a mention that Vodafone can modify these T&C's

If you can point to a specific breach of their T&C's then take a small claims case.

"reserves the right to alter any terms of this Contract for legal, technical, operational or commercial reasons, or to terminate any package or change its tariffs, on giving you thirty (30) days’ notice."

Without notice to the consumer of a change they've broken their own T&C.

D3PO

Orion wrote: »

"reserves the right to alter any terms of this Contract for legal, technical, operational or commercial reasons, or to terminate any package or change its tariffs, on giving you thirty (30) days’ notice."

Without notice to the consumer of a change they've broken their own T&C.

And the OP got notice in the form of a text ........

so wheres the breach ?

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

And the OP got notice in the form of a text ........

so wheres the breach ?

I didn't get any notice of a change in T's+C's in a text, or in an email which would be more suitable to something like this.

Where did I say I was notified of a change in T's+C's?

Orion

D3PO wrote: »

And the OP got notice in the form of a text ........

so wheres the breach ?

Right here.

FamousBelgian wrote: »

Also, I have never ever received an email or SMS informing me of a change to the T's+C's. When I ask on the phone for relevant conditions in writing I'm told that this is against company policy.

FamousBelgian

Orion wrote: »

Right here.

Whew! I'm glad someone believes me.

emeldc

I'm with you on this one OP. I was only looking into this yesterday.I have a cheap Vodafone PAYG phone that I was using while my own phone was being repaired. I can't remember the last time I used it but when I checked it yesterday it had been disconnected and about €20 of credit lost. I know it's in the T & C's but seriously, who ever reads all that sh1t for a 10 bob phone.

..........and I didn't get any notification by text or otherwise either.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

Whew! I'm glad someone believes me.

They expire after 180 days without any notice (except one SMS amid a sea of spam SMS's).



your words not mine ?

Orion

I took that as notice of the expiry not a T&C change.

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification, at least we can see what your complaint is and it seems you certainly do have grounds.
Your best approach is to send a written a complaint to Vodafone by registered post. In your letter be factual and concise, outline the above, state what you want and request a resolution within 10 working days. You should first confirm with your bank that the ATM transaction was successfully completed and money transferred to Vodafone. If you continue to get an unsatisfactory response you have the necessary records to go to Comreg. Yes they deal on a case by case basis (which is important to you) but if they find systemic issues they can deal with those too.

Thanks for the reply. I don't live in Ireland and I am maintaining this prepaid number for an elderly disabled relative. It will be a few weeks before I can get my hands on the original of the ATM receipt and the bank statement but I think I will go straight to Comreg just because it's easier to do online.

Vodafone do try to help to a certain extent on the phone but it is a lot of trouble to pursue such a simple matter. When they rectify a problem they caused themselves they do so as a 'goodwill gesture'. Part of this is company culture, I assume, but I suspect it's just a combination of slipshod business and massive laziness on the part of the management. Clearly the CEO is more interested in things other than making sure that someone is dotting i's and crossing t's on the business side of things.

In my case I've just lost a lot of time and very little money. It's a systemic issue that I find is common in Ireland and these things won't start to get fixed unless people complain. Where I live people may not be as nice or friendly as in Ireland but one thing is for sure no major company would ever get away with doing business like this.

Orion

I wouldn't get to excited by the use of "goodwill gesture". That's standard practice in many industries. It gives them the means to right a wrong without admitting legal liability. If they said "yes we screwed up - here's your money back" it admits liability and therefore opens avenues to litigation. Call it goodwill means they can still fix it but you can't take them to court saying they admitted anything.

D3PO

Orion wrote: »

I took that as notice of the expiry not a T&C change.

ok maybe i read it wrong. Then again notice of expiry would that also constitute notice of a change in the t&c's i dunno its unlikely Im just playing devils advocate here.

FamousBelgian

Orion wrote: »

I took that as notice of the expiry not a T&C change.

I believe the notice of expiry was sent in an SMS on one occasion (I don't use this phome myself; it's for a disabled elderly relative). It was never sent for the second expiry two weeks after the ATM payment. But what good is an SMS if the phone is switched off or the number is inactive. How do you sufficiently communicate the termination of a contract or the expiry of a service in 160 chars when you have no idea how it will be received? Why do you think companies use PDF's? Why can't they use email like a properly run business would do? How do I show an SMS in court?

How can a communications company not be able to send email to its customers?

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

ok maybe i read it wrong. Then again notice of expiry would that also constitute notice of a change in the t&c's i dunno its unlikely Im just playing devils advocate here.

Mr Advocate for the Devil, just please tell me which Irish phone provider you use because I'm going to switch to them ASAP!

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

I believe the notice of expiry was sent in an SMS on one occasion (I don't use this phome myself; it's for a disabled elderly relative). It was never sent for the second expiry two weeks after the ATM payment. But what good is an SMS if the phone is switched off or the number is inactive. How do you sufficiently communicate the termination of a contract or the expiry of a service in 160 chars when you have no idea how it will be received? Why do you think companies use PDF's? Why can't they use email like a properly run business would do? How do I show an SMS in court?

How can a communications company not be able to send email to its customers?

They can but choose not to it appears.

I know there is legal precident of text messages being accepted as having served legal notice in regards to property rental and as such Its probably fair to assume that any legal challenge against text message notice would fail., but then again thats just an assumption.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

Mr Advocate for the Devil, just please tell me which Irish phone provider you use because I'm going to switch to them ASAP!

I use O2 & Vodafone both bill pay though

Bcak on topic the framework is there for you anyway.

1) Make a formal written complain to Vodaphone and let them go through their complaints procedure
2) If not happy go to Comreg at that point and or take a case to small claims court.

Going that way is the only way you will be able to really get this resolved.

FamousBelgian

Orion wrote: »

I wouldn't get to excited by the use of "goodwill gesture". That's standard practice in many industries. It gives them the means to right a wrong without admitting legal liability. If they said "yes we screwed up - here's your money back" it admits liability and therefore opens avenues to litigation. Call it goodwill means they can still fix it but you can't take them to court saying they admitted anything.

I agree with you and Vodafone uses this term very liberally. It's only human nature of course and you get this everywhere; who hasn't had a boss that probably once generously told you you could have the weekend off.

But, yes, this is my issue. I want to get past the goodwill nonsense and tie them down on their own T's+C's. So far I've had no response to my request in the Vodafone forum.

Sheldons Brain

The expiry after 8 months is one thing, although Vodafone handle this badly. The acceptance of the money from the ATM, but providing nothing in return is surely more serious. If you paid something towards a product or service, where the service provider decided not to provide that service, then surely the shop would have to refund your money.

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

I use O2 & Vodafone both bill pay though

I ordered a prepaid phone online from O2 last Xmas for an, yes, elderly relative. Ended up having to go straight from the airport to the O2 shop in Grafton St to buy one there. It took some trouble to get the first one refunded.

Maybe prepay is considered infra dignitatem in Ireland. I dunno. But from what I've seen billpay is hugely pricey in Ireland. It used to be cheaper for me to use my Dutch subscription phone in Ireland than Vodafone IRL prepaid. Only when I saw what people were paying to ring me did I switch to Vodafone IRL.

FamousBelgian

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The expiry after 8 months is one thing, although Vodafone handle this badly. The acceptance of the money from the ATM, but providing nothing in return is surely more serious. If you paid something towards a product or service, where the service provider decided not to provide that service, then surely the shop would have to refund your money.

Yes, you're right. This is the thing I want to get them on. I just don't know how far I can go with this in Ireland.
Where I am you only have to mention the F-word: Fraud. Once you show that you paid for something you didn't get, no matter how little, then you're in the right. Works every time. If you have the time.

Paulw

I think you're missing something here - everything is automated.

You put through an ATM topup - your bank sends money to Vodafone bank, with a mobile number tag. The banking system sends an update to the billing system with the mobile number. If the mobile number isn't active, then the topup fails. The whole transaction hasn't failed though.

If your phone is inactive or not topped up regularly, then the services are revoked, and eventually, the credit cleared. After a further period of the number being disabled, the number is recycled.

Your path - complain to Vodafone. If no success, complain to ComReg, and after that Small Claims Court.

ash23

I think the issue though is that because it's pre-pay, it's not a contract.
If you were bill pay, you would have signed or agreed to a contract with Vodafone and they would not be able to change the terms and conditions without notifying you in that instance.

However, because it's pre-pay, you're using a service and agreeing to the terms and conditions of the company providing that service. Much like if your local salon puts up their prices, or your dentist brings in a cancellation fee for appointments.
They are entitled to make changes to the t&c of their service and they probably made the changes to their published t&c online. They also notified the user of the service of the imminent discontinuation of the service by SMS.

I don't think you have a contract OP. Therefore I don't think you have to be notified about changes.

I'm open to correction as I'm no legal eagle. Just going by my own work.

We have contracts and terms and conditions but they are two separate things. The terms and conditions are basically what we offer and the circumstances we offer them in. We can change these whenever we want.

However, when someone agrees to a 12 month contract with us, they agree the contract based on the terms and conditions at the time they enter the contract. We can only change the t&c for them when their contract expires, even if the t&c have changed in the meantime.

As it's prepay I don't think you have much hope in terms of arguing that they should have notified you of the change of t&c. I'd imagine that somewhere in the t&c it says they are subject to change.

I think you'd fare better by asking them to refund the money that was paid as it was paid in good faith and explain the situation to them.

FamousBelgian

Paulw wrote: »

I think you're missing something here - everything is automated.

You put through an ATM topup - your bank sends money to Vodafone bank, with a mobile number tag. The banking system sends an update to the billing system with the mobile number. If the mobile number isn't active, then the topup fails. The whole transaction hasn't failed though.

If your phone is inactive or not topped up regularly, then the services are revoked, and eventually, the credit cleared. After a further period of the number being disabled, the number is recycled.

Your path - complain to Vodafone. If no success, complain to ComReg, and after that Small Claims Court.

I understand that the ATM payment is automated but somewhere along the way in the Vodafone system the payment is accepted but it is not applied to the account. However, they say that in order to re-activate an account you must top up; this is how it is in store and through the website if you make a credit card payment.
When I raised the issue they just said that the money is not applied to the account. No mention of a refund. Just kept. You can't do that in a developed country. When I pressed the issue they eventually made a goodwill gesture of the same amount as the ATM payment but without ever acknowledging the payment. They refused to confirm this in an email. That is not goodwill.

I've pursued the issue on the Vodafone forum here but I've had no reply when I called them out on the exact text of their T's+C's. Depending on time available I may just go straight to Comreg.

Had I done the topup with my credit card and the same thing happened I would have simply filed a fraud report and Vodafone would now have all the explaining to do and I would have a refund.

FamousBelgian

ash23 wrote: »

I think the issue though is that because it's pre-pay, it's not a contract.
If you were bill pay, you would have signed or agreed to a contract with Vodafone and they would not be able to change the terms and conditions without notifying you in that instance.

However, because it's pre-pay, you're using a service and agreeing to the terms and conditions of the company providing that service. Much like if your local salon puts up their prices, or your dentist brings in a cancellation fee for appointments.
They are entitled to make changes to the t&c of their service and they probably made the changes to their published t&c online. They also notified the user of the service of the imminent discontinuation of the service by SMS.

I don't think you have a contract OP. Therefore I don't think you have to be notified about changes.

I'm open to correction as I'm no legal eagle. Just going by my own work.

We have contracts and terms and conditions but they are two separate things. The terms and conditions are basically what we offer and the circumstances we offer them in. We can change these whenever we want.

However, when someone agrees to a 12 month contract with us, they agree the contract based on the terms and conditions at the time they enter the contract. We can only change the t&c for them when their contract expires, even if the t&c have changed in the meantime.

As it's prepay I don't think you have much hope in terms of arguing that they should have notified you of the change of t&c. I'd imagine that somewhere in the t&c it says they are subject to change.

I think you'd fare better by asking them to refund the money that was paid as it was paid in good faith and explain the situation to them.

I see your point but their T's+C's online are out of date and they cancelled the service two weeks after the ATM payment. They have never ever once informed my any changes to the T's+C's. I would also think that there is an implied contract based on the T's+C's in force at the moment of payment but the question here is how much can a company imply with such vague, variable terms, and how much can a company invoke 'policy'.

For instance I have a very advantageous phone subscription in Holland. It was such a good deal that the company stopped selling it during the crisis. However, it was grandfathered for all existing subscribers so I keep the same deal, on a month to month basis, probably because there was something in the nature of the subscription that made it difficult for them to cancel. If I try to change the subscription I immediately move to a worse deal. I didn't even think I had anything after the initial contract expired so I am a happy camper. just wish I could get a mortgage like that...

Paulw

FamousBelgian wrote: »

I understand that the ATM payment is automated but somewhere along the way in the Vodafone system the payment is accepted but it is not applied to the account. However, they say that in order to re-activate an account you must top up; this is how it is in store and through the website if you make a credit card payment.

Maybe up to a certain date after deactivation it is possible to topup to reactivate it, but after that date it is not, so the payment topup can't be applied, and the account is in a holding phase, before it's removed. Just guessing here.

It's not a payment being accepted, as such, it's you sending them money, to apply credit to your account.

slimjimmc

FamousBelgian wrote: »

I understand that the ATM payment is automated but somewhere along the way in the Vodafone system the payment is accepted but it is not applied to the account. However, they say that in order to re-activate an account you must top up; this is how it is in store and through the website if you make a credit card payment.
When I raised the issue they just said that the money is not applied to the account. No mention of a refund. Just kept. You can't do that in a developed country. When I pressed the issue they eventually made a goodwill gesture of the same amount as the ATM payment but without ever acknowledging the payment. They refused to confirm this in an email. That is not goodwill.

I've pursued the issue on the Vodafone forum here but I've had no reply when I called them out on the exact text of their T's+C's. Depending on time available I may just go straight to Comreg.

Had I done the topup with my credit card and the same thing happened I would have simply filed a fraud report and Vodafone would now have all the explaining to do and I would have a refund.

Have they even received the ATM transaction? They can't be expected to offer a refund if their system doesn't show payment was made. This is why I previously advised you to check with your bank, you need to establish where the money went. Without this knowledge you cannot even be certain the problem lies with Vodafone, the money could be stuck at your bank and if that is the case what VF have done is very much a gesture of good will.

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

Have they even received the ATM transaction? They can't be expected to offer a refund if their system doesn't show payment was made. This is why I previously advised you to check with your bank, you need to establish where the money went. Without this knowledge you cannot even be certain the problem lies with Vodafone, the money could be stuck at your bank and if that is the case what VF have done is very much a gesture of good will.

The money was deducted from the account after the ATM transaction and never refunded. I PM'ed all the details from the ATM receipt (on Vodafone's request) and when I called them up on the phone they never said they didn't receive the money. But they were so quick to make a goodwill gesture for the same amount I can only assume that they did indeed find the transaction. Later they said in the Vodafone support forum that such payments are not applied to the account when the account is inactive (but payments by cc and in-shop are, apparently). Not once did they ever say that they didn't receive the money. And another customer had the same problem in the forum so my logical deduction is that if I sent them the money then they got it.