Rental Guests Demand Refund

smw2014

I had an issue with my rental apartment and could not have guests come to stay. I contacted guests the day before they were due to arrive and offered the guests a full refund, or else to change their rental dates - both offerings were declined by the guests.

I next offered to assist them find alternative accommodation - which proved to be extremely difficult as it was the August Bank Holiday Weekend. I spent an entire evening into the early hours of the morning and the following next morning searching for accommodation for the guests as they were adamant on still travelling to the holiday destination even though I could not accommodate them.

I managed eventually to secure a substandard house that could accommodate the guests in the vicinity they wanted to stay - as also the guests would not move to a different area. I advised the guests that the house was not of equal standard to my accommodation and it had not been used for 3+ years - they accepted my rental offer and never mentioned any request for a refund - then 4 days into their holiday they requested a 50% refund - they are persistent in there request for the refund.

I offered the guests alternative better standard accommodation in different locations and also accommodation on different dates but the guests would not accept any of my suggestions I feel I did my best to re-accommodate the guests at short notice at the busiest time of the year and I should not have to give a refund due to their acceptance of the re-accommodation. Do I need to still give a refund? Is 50% refund a reasonable demand from the guests or should this be less? Appreciate advise and guidance as I have no experience of this situation... thanks

Lmklad

I advised the guests that the house was not of equal standard to my accommodation and it had not been used for 3+ years - they accepted my rental offer and never mentioned any request for a refund

They accepted your rental offer.

goz83

Do you have proof of the accepted sub standard re-accommodation in written form? This, I imagine would be critical.

However, they must have had specific reasons for insisting on the same location and 1 days notice is not exactly adequate and was not their problem, so perhaps, as they may have felt somewhat forced into a lower quality accommodation, you might consider some refund, making sure that you are not out of pocket of course. Changing dates may not have been a possibility either. Flights, time off work etc etc. Just my thoughts.

smw2014

Hi goz83, thanks for your response. Unfortunatley I dont have written confirmation in email/letter format as the offer/acceptance was all done over the phone. The guests were actually on their way to the original holiday destination when I confirmed the alternative accommodation - The alernative accommodation was the closet accommodation I could get to where they were due to stay - it was 5km away. Original accommodation was a 2 bedroom apartment on the beach the alternative accomodation was a 4 bed house overlooking the same beach and out to the ocean - the house was in need of modernisation - i had prewarned the guests of this. The rental price for the house for the week was the same price as the rental price for my accomommodation for the week. So any refund is going to put me out of pocket - I think a 50% refund is steep...

Phil_Lives

Fleadh? I'd be pissed off if accommodation was made unavailable in a town where every property is booked for that one week/weekend?

trishasaffron

Sounds like you do owe them something - precise amount could only be a matter of negotiation.

BTW why couldn't you accommodate them as committed? That could be relevant.

smw2014

Hi Phil_Lives - no not the Fleadh - and I sorted alternative accomodation within the same area for the guests

SpaceTime

Cancelling at one day's notice is quite unreasonable. I think you'll quite likely have to take it in the pocket OP.

It sounds like they were very unimpressed with the whole situation and you've no paperwork or proof of agreement.

trishasaffron

smw2014 wrote: »

Hi Phil_Lives - no not the Fleadh - and I sorted alternative accomodation within the same area for the guests

Why did you break your contract?

smw2014

Hi trishasaffron, I couldn't accomodate the guests as I had a flooding problem in my main bathroom. At first the guests were determined to come stay eventhough the main bathroom would be out of bounds and they could only use the ensuite - I did not want the family to stay in the apartment as they had children and I did not want to be liable if they were to injure themselves if work had to be done during their stay. So I offered a full refund and an alternative stay - but the family rejected this.

The family are persistant in their request for a full refund - I think if I have to give a refund the equivalent of a 2 night stay would be enough - especially since I did so much for the family to still have their holiday in the same location and not to dissapoint the kids..

jimd2

If it was me I think I would also expect some refund. Whether or not you are out of pocket is frankly no real concern of theirs. They booked your accomodation for a specific weekend and its obvious that they were not going to a general area but it was a specific location or event that they booked. They probably would have had the opportunity to book somewhere else had yours not been available at the start.

You are renting out as a business / make a profit and these are sometimes the risks that you take in so doing. Just like there are associated costs such as maintenance etc etc.

They ended up staying in a sub standard accomodation to what they had booked. I think that, considering you had to pay a similar amount for the other place, then a 30% reduction would be appropriate. Another option would be to offer them your own accomodation at 50% off at some stage in the future.

Edit: offer them something like the 30% now or the 50% off future renting as a take it or leave it. To me that sounds fair. They could be playing hardball. Give them 1 week to accept the offer or the offer is off the table.

smw2014

Hi trishasaffron, I couldn't accomodate the guests as I had a flooding problem in my main bathroom. At first the guests were determined to come stay eventhough the main bathroom would be out of bounds and they could only use the ensuite - I did not want the family to stay in the apartment as they had children and I did not want to be liable if they were to injure themselves if work had to be done during their stay. So I offered a full refund and an alternative stay - but the family rejected this.

The family are persistant in their request for a 50% refund - I think if I have to give a refund the equivalent of a 2 night stay would be enough - especially since I did so much for the family to still have their holiday in the same location and not to dissapoint the kids..

super_furry

Cancelling at one days notice just isn't on. You should give them a full refund.

jimd2

super_furry wrote: »

Cancelling at one days notice just isn't on. You should give them a full refund.

Unless the accomodation was really substandard I think that there should be give and take here. Some reduction, yes but if they were accommodated in a reasonably similar place in a close enough location then I dont think a full refund is fair on the OP.

As they say **** happens and a full refund was offered.

goz83

OP, as nothing is in writing, you could be walking into a bit of a mine field. I respect that any refund would be a hit, but as mentioned by another poster, it is a risk you take in business. I would have allowed the family to stay and made the bathroom off limits and offered a 25% discount for the inconvenience.

In your current position, you could try offer them free accommodation for a week, or two in the future, or if pushed, give the 50% refund, while insisting they send you an email that such a refund will be the end of the matter. The flood is not your fault, but it's certainly not theirs either and they were really put out by the situation.

In this situation, the correct thing to do, is also the right thing to do.

piperh

I'm with the others I'm afraid and would say it's one of the pitfalls of running a rental business. You might feel you did your best by offering full refund or postponement but you don't really know what plans or arrangements they might have had for their holiday in the area. By your own admission the only alternative accomodation was inferior and everything else was booked because of the short notice so they really had little choice but to accept it.

If you booked a holiday in a 5 star hotel through a travel agent and the day before you travelled you were told you had the choice of cancellation or staying in a 2 star 5km away would you not expect at least a partial refund?

whippet

I'm going tongi against the grain here.

The OP was unable to perform on his side of the contract due to circumstances beyond his control. He informed the guests and offered alternatives, including a full refund.

The customer decline ld a full refund and the OP sourced alternative accommodation. The customer agreed despite the warning about the standard.

I would be of the opinion the OP has no further responsibility and should mot offer any further compensation.

The OP says the alternative cost him the same that he received, so offering any compensation would actually cost him money.

The customers could look at taking a case in the Small Claims Court .. however the max of their claim would be the monies actually paid; and as the OP has provided a service, offered a full refund (which was declined) I would be of the opinion that the SCC would probably not actually make an award.

In the hospitality sector stuff goes wrong that is out of the control of the service provider .. unless there is penalty clauses in the booking contract I don't see how the OP owes any further to the customer.

smw2014

Thanks. This is still my gut feeling.

I'm not a letting agent. I just rent our family holiday home when we don't use it ourselves. I think I went above and beyond to help out the guests when I couldn't have then stay in my place. I'm sure if the time of year the incident happened was different I could have sourced better standard accommodation but it was the August Bank Holiday week.

I offered a full refund and the offer was declined. I then used their rental monies to secure a house at the busiest time of the year. There was absolutely nothing else available for the dates they wanted but they still wouldn't take my full refund offer and accepted the house knowing it wouldn't match my accommodation.

Renting my place out doesn't earn me money it just helps cover my extreme overheads

Any refund to the renters will come from my personal pocket.

whippet wrote: »

I'm going tongi against the grain here.

The OP was unable to perform on his side of the contract due to circumstances beyond his control. He informed the guests and offered alternatives, including a full refund.

The customer decline ld a full refund and the OP sourced alternative accommodation. The customer agreed despite the warning about the standard.

I would be of the opinion the OP has no further responsibility and should mot offer any further compensation.

The OP says the alternative cost him the same that he received, so offering any compensation would actually cost him money.

The customers could look at taking a case in the Small Claims Court .. however the max of their claim would be the monies actually paid; and as the OP has provided a service, offered a full refund (which was declined) I would be of the opinion that the SCC would probably not actually make an award.

In the hospitality sector stuff goes wrong that is out of the control of the service provider .. unless there is penalty clauses in the booking contract I don't see how the OP owes any further to the customer.

Phil_Lives

you are in breach of contract. the other party may have hired a car or lost the use of annual holidays or hired a babysitter or anything and you were only offering to pay for the cost of rental.
if you are not prepared to behave in a business-like manner and observer contract law then get out of the business of hiring out properties for holiday rental.

dixiefly

smw2014 wrote: »

Thanks. This is still my gut feeling.

I'm not a letting agent. I just rent our family holiday home when we don't use it ourselves. I think I went above and beyond to help out the guests when I couldn't have then stay in my place. I'm sure if the time of year the incident happened was different I could have sourced better standard accommodation but it was the August Bank Holiday week.

I offered a full refund and the offer was declined. I then used their rental monies to secure a house at the busiest time of the year. There was absolutely nothing else available for the dates they wanted but they still wouldn't take my full refund offer and accepted the house knowing it wouldn't match my accommodation.

Renting my place out doesn't earn me money it just helps cover my extreme overheads

Any refund to the renters will come from my personal pocket.

No no, it is still a profit making venture for you. You are using it to fund the family holiday home so it is a business. The "extreme" costs are all part of owning a holiday home. I have looked at buying one several times but have always considered the other costs / benefits and I haven't been able to justify it to date.

I think the vast majority of respondants stated here that the correct thing to do was to provide at least a partial refund. yet you only seem to agree with the one stating that you don't need to give any refund.

I definitely think you should give some refund to compensate for the reduced quality to what was originally agreed or give them an option of a more substantial reduction from the rent in futire.

dixiefly

smw2014 wrote: »

Thanks. This is still my gut feeling.

I'm not a letting agent. I just rent our family holiday home when we don't use it ourselves. I think I went above and beyond to help out the guests when I couldn't have then stay in my place. I'm sure if the time of year the incident happened was different I could have sourced better standard accommodation but it was the August Bank Holiday week.

I offered a full refund and the offer was declined. I then used their rental monies to secure a house at the busiest time of the year. There was absolutely nothing else available for the dates they wanted but they still wouldn't take my full refund offer and accepted the house knowing it wouldn't match my accommodation.

Renting my place out doesn't earn me money it just helps cover my extreme overheads

Any refund to the renters will come from my personal pocket.

I am not sure if the word GUESTS is the appropriate description here. To me they were your CUSTOMERS in that they expected a product/ service for a sum of money paid.

whippet

Phil_Lives wrote: »

you are in breach of contract. the other party may have hired a car or lost the use of annual holidays or hired a babysitter or anything and you were only offering to pay for the cost of rental.
if you are not prepared to behave in a business-like manner and observer contract law then get out of the business of hiring out properties for holiday rental.

The OP has no responsibility to the customer outside of the services for accommodation. The OP went above and beyond his duty to the customer by sourcing alternative accommodation.

You can argue the morals, ethics and goodwill all you want; however, the fact is clear, once the OP offered a full refund his obligations were fulfilled. The customers chose not to take the refund and to avail of the alternative service offered.

Unless you can point to some legislation showing where OP is duty bound to give the customers compensation I contend that he is best placed to politely tell the customers that this is the end of the matter.

goz83

whippet wrote: »

The OP has no responsibility to the customer outside of the services for accommodation. The OP went above and beyond his duty to the customer by sourcing alternative accommodation.

You can argue the morals, ethics and goodwill all you want; however, the fact is clear, once the OP offered a full refund his obligations were fulfilled. The customers chose not to take the refund and to avail of the alternative service offered.

Unless you can point to some legislation showing where OP is duty bound to give the customers compensation I contend that he is best placed to politely tell the customers that this is the end of the matter.

I'd bet an arm and a leg that the customers would win a claim if they brought the OP to court. "Yeah, Judge. I offered them a full refund when they were on the way to the apartment and they refused to ask the pilot to turn the 747 around, because I had plumbing issues".

The customers were not given reasonable notice. Infact, I would say it was astonishingly short notice, considering the customers were enroute to the apartment at that stage. They were also willing to use the ensuite, but that didn't suit the OP. They had very little choice and had to accept what the OP was generous enough to find, or risk having no accommodation. Seems like a strong case for a full refund.

whomitconcerns

That's what travel insurance is for. It's crap but circumstances beyond op's control. Refund was offered and alternative was accepted.

whippet

goz83 wrote: »

Seems like a strong case for a full refund.

But they were offered a full refund and chose not to accept it ... And chose to accept an alternative service.

The time scale was unfortunate but out of the control of the OP and there was a serious health and safety hazard which would have been irresponsible of the OP to ignore.

The OP has acted in a very responsible and fair manner here and as far as I can see from the evidence he has done everything he was obliged to do plus more

Phil_Lives

whippet wrote: »

The OP has no responsibility to the customer outside of the services for accommodation. The OP went above and beyond his duty to the customer by sourcing alternative accommodation.

You can argue the morals, ethics and goodwill all you want; however, the fact is clear, once the OP offered a full refund his obligations were fulfilled. The customers chose not to take the refund and to avail of the alternative service offered.

Unless you can point to some legislation showing where OP is duty bound to give the customers compensation I contend that he is best placed to politely tell the customers that this is the end of the matter.

Google "consequential damages"
The only thing the innocent party has done to undermine their case is accept the offer of the inferior accommodation which turned out to much more inferior than they had been led to believe.

whippet

Phil_Lives wrote: »

Google "consequential damages"
The only thing the innocent party has done to undermine their case is accept the offer of the inferior accommodation which turned out to much more inferior than they had been led to believe.

I'm well aware of special damages .. Can you identify what special damages you can see in this case?

Phil_Lives

They undermined themselves by accepting the inferior alternative so didn't incur the consequential damages. They've painted themselves in to the corner so as the OP isn't decent/reasonable/moral(delete as appropriate) he/she is going to exploit it.
OP is on here looking for a way to welch on their responsibilities/obligations to their victim.

whippet

Phil_Lives wrote: »

They undermined themselves by accepting the inferior alternative so didn't incur the consequential damages. They've painted themselves in to the corner so as the OP isn't decent/reasonable/moral(delete as appropriate) he/she is going to exploit it.
OP is on here looking for a way to welch on their responsibilities/obligations to their victim.

What obligations? He provided accomodation which while not to the decorative standard as the apartment .. But a 4 bed house costing the same. That is what was in the contract.

I

Phil_Lives

whippet wrote: »

What obligations? He provided accomodation which while not to the decorative standard as the apartment .. But a 4 bed house costing the same. That is what was in the contract.

A Dacia Sandero is the same size roughly as an Audi A1, in fact slightly larger. You'd be peeved if arriving at the rental desk to be handed the keys to a Dacia for the duration of your holiday when you had booked an Audi A1 or similar. If warned a day before arriving that you were going to receive a Dacia you'd have no time to cancel flights, would have difficulty securing a refund on same and cancelling your vacation days in work when your manager had already arranged cover for those days.

Beano

whippet wrote: »

What obligations? He provided accomodation which while not to the decorative standard as the apartment .. But a 4 bed house costing the same. That is what was in the contract.

I

the provided accomodation was not in the same location as the accomodation booked. If you booked a hotel in the city center and were put in a hotel in killester would you be happy?

goz83

whippet wrote: »

But they were offered a full refund and chose not to accept it ... And chose to accept an alternative service.

The time scale was unfortunate but out of the control of the OP and there was a serious health and safety hazard which would have been irresponsible of the OP to ignore.

The OP has acted in a very responsible and fair manner here and as far as I can see from the evidence he has done everything he was obliged to do plus more

I believe it would be viewed differently inside a court room. I agree that the OP went to great effort (if the OP was telling the full truth) to find alternative accommodation for his customers, but it does not change the fact that the customers were already on the way to their agreed accommodation and must have been under great pressure (contract agreed under duress) to accept sub standard accommodation.

The time scale was unfortunate and does not nullify the contract, or give the OP a get out of jail free card. Adequate notice was not given and the fact that the customers were on the way already, made it extraordinarily difficult to accept anything other than what the OP offered. Had the main bathroom been locked and marked as "off limits", the h&S issue would be a non issue. The customers were willing to accept this and it puts them in a stronger position. The op could have stipulated that a plumber be able to access the property to complete repairs and offer some discount for the inconvenience. Problem solved.

I believe the OP did not act responsibly, as he offered accommodation, which had not been occupied for 3 years. That would be more of a health and safety concern to me, than a leaky bathroom. If I were the customer, I would be fuming about the whole situation.


I will say again. The OP might best avoid having to pay compensation if he contacts the customers and offers them a free stay at the property for maybe double the time they were supposed to have. If he explains that the property they stayed in was not his and cost the same as what he was paid, they might be understanding.

goz83

Phil_Lives wrote: »

A Dacia Sandero is the same size roughly as an Audi A1, in fact slightly larger. You'd be peeved if arriving at the rental desk to be handed the keys to a Dacia for the duration of your holiday when you had booked an Audi A1 or similar. If warned a day before arriving that you were going to receive a Dacia you'd have no time to cancel flights, would have difficulty securing a refund on same and cancelling your vacation days in work when your manager had already arranged cover for those days.

I would view it more like booking an Auto Mercedes E class and having to pick up a VW minibus with shot gearbox.

whippet

Phil_Lives wrote: »

A Dacia Sandero is the same size roughly as an Audi A1, in fact slightly larger. You'd be peeved if arriving at the rental desk to be handed the keys to a Dacia for the duration of your holiday when you had booked an Audi A1 or similar. If warned a day before arriving that you were going to receive a Dacia you'd have no time to cancel flights, would have difficulty securing a refund on same and cancelling your vacation days in work when your manager had already arranged cover for those days.

not the same ... more like .. he booked a Audi A1, this wasn't available so was offered a Dacia Duster. (both cost about the same new) ... the dacia is bigger, 4x4 but doesn't look as nice inside and isn't as luxurious.

Phil_Lives

whippet wrote: »

not the same ... more like .. he booked a Audi A1, this wasn't available so was offered a Dacia Duster. (both cost about the same new) ... the dacia is bigger, 4x4 but doesn't look as nice inside and isn't as luxurious.

No.

joeguevara

If the customers had cancelled the holiday let a day before, would the landlord have refunded all of the money? If not, the landlord would be liable for consequential damages that the customer had incurred. The fact that alternative accommodation was offered does mitigate the damages somewhat, in that the customers did have accommodation but not to the same standard and without the same facilities (i.e. location to the beach).

Some sort of refund should be offered, and I don't think it is suitable to offer free accommodation at a later date, as they would have to spend money on travel etc., and whose to say that you won't cancel that. Offer 25% discount as a full and final resolution of the matter (without prejudice) i.e not admitting fault and liability. If they don't accept that, they may bring you to court, but the judge may look at their rejection of the offer in an unfavourable light.

whippet

joeguevara wrote: »

If the customers had cancelled the holiday let a day before, would the landlord have refunded all of the money? If not, the landlord would be liable for consequential damages that the customer had incurred. The fact that alternative accommodation was offered does mitigate the damages somewhat, in that the customers did have accommodation but not to the same standard and without the same facilities (i.e. location to the beach).

Some sort of refund should be offered, and I don't think it is suitable to offer free accommodation at a later date, as they would have to spend money on travel etc., and whose to say that you won't cancel that. Offer 25% discount as a full and final resolution of the matter (without prejudice) i.e not admitting fault and liability. If they don't accept that, they may bring you to court, but the judge may look at their rejection of the offer in an unfavourable light.

Why would he do that ? There is little or no chances of special damages been awarded in court considering they were offer a full refund and took the alternative accom as was described

Phil_Lives

whippet wrote: »

There is little or no chances of special damages been awarded in court

Your opinion and if they come to court with receipts for goods/services which were purchased in expectation of the trip the Judge would be awarding damages.

joeguevara

whippet wrote: »

Why would he do that ? There is little or no chances of special damages been awarded in court considering they were offer a full refund and took the alternative accom as was described

Read the quote. I never mentioned special damages. I stated that a refund on the accommodation would have left the customer out of pocket due to the other costs.

The OP can do what they want. The OP has no proof that they told the customer of the sub par accommodation or the customers acceptance of sub par accommodation. I think they should tread carefully and consider offering a refund.

whippet

Phil_Lives wrote: »

Your opinion and if they come to court with receipts for goods/services which were purchased in expectation of the trip the Judge would be awarding damages.

but they were not out of pocket .. they completed their trip. So this is of no consequence

schemingbohemia

I presume the OP is on tripadvisor or something like that. For the sake of a very bad review I'd make some sort of offer, perhaps half the rental cost.

whippet

joeguevara wrote: »

The OP can do what they want. The OP has no proof that they told the customer of the sub par accommodation or the customers acceptance of sub par accommodation. I think they should tread carefully and consider offering a refund.

The Customer has no proof that they were not told (unless a text / email chain exists)

So you are advising someone to stump up compensation country to their obligation as it is a matter of who believes who rather than based on the evidence presented by the OP here?

Phil_Lives

whippet wrote: »

but they were not out of pocket .. they completed their trip. So this is of no consequence

They were under duress.

whippet

Phil_Lives wrote: »

They were under duress.

you could argue that the OP was under duress also .. as he was pressurised by the customers to source an alternative after the original contract was cancelled.

Phil_Lives

You may be tenacious in maintaining your opinion but the OP failed to deliver the contracted service and the remedy they proposed was unsatisfactory. The Customer fulfilled their side of the contract and are blameless.

partyguinness

It's amusing to terms like 'special' and 'consequential' damages floating around as if the authors know what they are talking about. Clearly you have never seen the inside of the District Court.

A DJ would be less than amused to see this in front of his Court.

whippet

partyguinness wrote: »

It's amusing to terms like 'special' and 'consequential' damages floating around as if the authors know what they are talking about. Clearly you have never seen the inside of the District Court.

A DJ would be less than amused to see this in front of his Court.

It's bordering on freeman type nonsense !

Phil_Lives

google consequential damages site:irishstatutebook.ie

if it is there it isn't freeman nonsense.

goz83

whippet wrote: »

you could argue that the OP was under duress also .. as he was pressurised by the customers to source an alternative after the original contract was cancelled.

I'm afraid the duress of the landlord would be of little consequence, as he was the person who breached the contract.

Lets look at a flip side here.

Lets say that a volcano erupted and the customers were unable to reach the accommodation, due to flight cancellations. This would be certainly unforeseeable and outside the control of the customers. Let us then add, that the customers said they could come another time of the year, that it was out of their control. If that didn't suit, lets say they knew of a related couple already at the location who needed accommodation for the week, but the catch is that the couple are raging alcoholics and coke addicts, who are well known in the area.

I wonder if the landlord might accept these changes.

whippet

Phil_Lives wrote: »

google consequential damages site:irishstatutebook.ie

if it is there it isn't freeman nonsense.

you missed my point ... the term is a legal term alright but just like the freemen they take legal terms and totally misinterpret their meaning and place within the legal system

whippet

goz83 wrote: »

I'm afraid the duress of the landlord would be of little consequence, as he was the person who breached the contract.

Lets look at a flip side here.

Lets say that a volcano erupted and the customers were unable to reach the accommodation, due to flight cancellations. This would be certainly unforeseeable and outside the control of the customers. Let us then add, that the customers said they could come another time of the year, that it was out of their control. If that didn't suit, lets say they knew of a related couple already at the location who needed accommodation for the week, but the catch is that the couple are raging alcoholics and coke addicts, who are well known in the area.

I wonder if the landlord might accept these changes.

that is just gibberish