French politician angered by veiled Muslim at beach

crazyderk

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/life-style/art-and-culture/2014/08/19/Nadine-Morano-.html

A conservative French politician sparked a debate after she posted Monday a picture of a veiled Muslim woman on a beach in France and the cover of Le Figaro magazine portraying former French sex icon Brigitte Bardot.

Nadine Morano, who published the picture on her personal Facebook account, wrote: “When one chooses to come to secular, France... one must respect our culture and the freedom of women. If not, go elsewhere!”

In France, women wearing full-face veils in public spaces can be fined up to 150 euros ($205) following a ban passed in 2010.

France, which is home to Europe's largest Muslim community, said the ban is necessary for security reasons and to uphold the country’s secular traditions.

I'm not sure how I feel about this, on one hand if you immigrate to a country you should integrate to that countries traditions however on the other side of the argument if you wants the freedoms then you should also be respecting how other people want to live, is that not the core of democracy?

Do you agree with what she has said or do you think she is wrong?

Edit: Apologies I messed up the title perhaps a mod could fix it? Should read "French politician angered by veiled Muslim at beach"

pickarooney

one must respect our culture and the freedom of women

except for the freedom of women born in France to wear veils, naturally

HurtLocker

Well I cant wear a motorcycle helmet or balaclava into a bank, restaurant or supermarket. If I wore a balaclava on a public street or a motorcycle helmet with no bike in sight Id have the gards out to me. The key to a democracy is everyone is treated equally not one segment given exemptions from our social norms due to their social norms back home and their religion. Of course I dont care about having other cultures within our society as we are anation of immigrants ourself but being allowed to cover ones face making oneself anonymous is really up to each country to decide whether they wish to accept this. Try and enter a bank here wearing a face cover for non religious reasons and see how far you get. Secular society should treat every individual the same regardless of background or culture period.

Edit: I presume we are talking about the full face (burka) cover and not the hijab.

jimgoose

crazyderk wrote: »

...you should also be respecting how other people want to live, is that not the core of democracy?...

Most certainly, I wouldn't dream of interfering with anyone's right to wear a burka. They are most welcome to do so, and more, in their own countries.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

crazyderk wrote: »

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/life-style/art-and-culture/2014/08/19/Nadine-Morano-.html



I'm not sure how I feel about this, on one hand if you immigrate to a country you should integrate to that countries traditions however on the other side of the argument if you wants the freedoms then you should also be respecting how other people want to live, is that not the core of democracy?

Do you agree with what she has said or do you think she is wrong?

Edit: Apologies I messed up the title perhaps a mod could fix it? Should read "French politician angered by veiled Muslim at beach"

Whevever I hear that a law is being passed or a right is being revoked for "security reasons", I automatically get skeptical. It's like they just want to restrict a freedom, have no good reason, and just lazily try to frighten people into thinking that it's needed.

Core democracy is letting people choose - is she saying people should 'integrate' or people should 'conform'? How does she know this woman does not integrate in other ways?

Panthro

French Politician causes what, causes what?!
Arrrgghhh!!

pickarooney

A beach is a bit different though, no? You can't really go topless into a bank either.

comongethappy

Another France/Veil thread?

Panthro

Thinly veiled France bitchin' thread.

pickarooney

Thinly veiled muslim bashing thread?

edit: dammit, seconds too late

jimgoose

comongethappy wrote: »

Another France/Veil thread?

Worse - another veiled France thread! And I'm not ruddy-well falling for it!! Allez! :cool:

Panthro

pickarooney wrote: »

Thinly veiled muslim bashing thread?

edit: dammit, seconds too late

You know what happens if you snooze?....
http://t.qkme.me/3saz6n.jpg
:pac:

wretcheddomain

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Whevever I hear that a law is being passed or a right is being revoked for "security reasons", I automatically get skeptical. It's like they just want to restrict a freedom, have no good reason, and just lazily try to frighten people into thinking that it's needed.

Core democracy is letting people choose - is she saying people should 'integrate' or people should 'conform'? How does she know this woman does not integrate in other ways?

The veil is a symbol of oppression - irrespective of personal choice.

France is standing up for its secularism by banning such oppressive symbols.

Should we, for example, tolerate other symbols of oppression? No.

Personal choice doesn't come into it when you look at it from this perspective.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The veil is a symbol of oppression - irrespective of personal choice.

France is standing up for its secularism by banning such oppressive symbols.

Should we, for example, tolerate other symbols of oppression? No.

Personal choice doesn't come into it when you look at it from this perspective.

Is it a symbol of opression though? Is a wedding ring a symbol of oppression? A school uniform? A suit?

Smiles35

The 'Safety' charge is obvoisly trumped up. But don't the French like to get in your face socially?

The_Valeyard

No need to worry, im sure France will soon surrender.

FloatingVoter

Someone said "topless banks". I'm for this.

Mr. CooL ICE

Still haven't forgiven them for Thierry Henry

El Weirdo

jimgoose wrote: »

Most certainly, I wouldn't dream of interfering with anyone's right to wear a burka. They are most welcome to do so, and more, in their own countries.

And what about French women who wish to wear a burqa?

MS.ing

El Weirdo wrote: »

And what about French women who wish to wear a burqa?

the muslims are french

jimgoose

El Weirdo wrote: »

And what about French women who wish to wear a burqa?

As soon as I am allowed to hide my face going into a bank.

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

Most certainly, I wouldn't dream of interfering with anyone's right to wear a burka. They are most welcome to do so, and more, in their own countries.

You know theres been a large muslim population in France since the late 19th century.......?

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

You know theres been a large muslim population in France since the late 19th century.......?

Yes. And?

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

Yes. And?

And France therefore is their country. And their parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc. Thus

They are most welcome to do so, and more, in their own countries

is rather a stupid statement to make.

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

And France therefore is their country. And their parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc. Thus


is rather a stupid statement to make.

I don't think so. France is a secular democracy which, like here, regulates the public obfuscation of facial features.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jimgoose wrote: »

I don't think so. France is a secular democracy which, like here, regulates the public obfuscation of facial features.

Doesn't matter what it is. If they grew up there it's their country. Just because you disagree with it doesn;t mean that somewhere else is yoru country.

Also, we don't instruct people to show their faces in public. Private, yes, but not public.

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

I don't think so. France is a secular democracy which, like here, regulates the public obfuscation of facial features.

Hang on a tic and move those goalposts back. You specifically stated

They are most welcome to do so, and more, in their own countries

(my bold and underline)

These people are French. Many of them have French roots going back well over a century. Telling them they're welcome to do something "in their own countries" is conflating ethnic origin with nationality, devaluing citizenship based on a persons religion, and xenophobic cack of the worst order.

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

Hang on a tic and move those goalposts back. You specifically stated



(my bold and underline)

These people are French. Many of them have French roots going back well over a century. Telling them they're welcome to do something "in their own countries" is conflating ethnic origin with nationality, devaluing citizenship based on a persons religion, and xenophobic cack of the worst order.

I actually am a xenophobic, right-wing asshole, and sometimes we are needed. And quit claiming monopoly on Righteousness!

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

I actually am a xenophobic, right-wing asshole, and sometimes we are needed.

I've no idea. However you're straying into their territory, and no, they aren't needed at all.

K-9

Tbh I don't see the issue about wearing a burka at a beach! Must be pretty uncomfortable but as long it's what she wants to do, fine.

I was reading recently that less women in France are going topless so maybe that has something to do with it, or maybe nothing at all!

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

I've no idea. However you're straying into their territory, and no, they aren't needed at all.

We'll see what the non-spineless people of La Belle France think in due course.

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

We'll see what the non-spineless people of La Belle France think in due course.

Well obviously some French people have no problem with it.

What's this "non-spineless people" thing?

Amirani

What is French culture (or indeed Irish culture for that matter)?

As an Irish person, I feel I differ a huge amount culturally to lots of other Irish people. I'm not a big fan of Irish sports, have absolutely no association with Catholicism, the food I eat is for the most part asian, I don't see the pub as a mainstay of my social life and I'm fine with people wearing veils/masks if they so choose. If an immigrant chooses to do exactly what I do, surely they're following Irish culture? Or is my culture not Irish?

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Egginacup

HurtLocker wrote: »

Well I cant wear a motorcycle helmet or balaclava into a bank, restaurant or supermarket. If I wore a balaclava on a public street or a motorcycle helmet with no bike in sight Id have the gards out to me. The key to a democracy is everyone is treated equally not one segment given exemptions from our social norms due to their social norms back home and their religion. Of course I dont care about having other cultures within our society as we are anation of immigrants ourself but being allowed to cover ones face making oneself anonymous is really up to each country to decide whether they wish to accept this. Try and enter a bank here wearing a face cover for non religious reasons and see how far you get. Secular society should treat every individual the same regardless of background or culture period.

Edit: I presume we are talking about the full face (burka) cover and not the hijab.

The whole veil ban is rubbish. It's purely to demonise and subjugate Muslims. The excuse given is that France is secular yet I haven't heard any cases of crucifixes being yanked off christians or skullcaps being banned on Jews or turbans being outlawed. And if you want to go down the farcical security route then outlaw sunglasses, women with big floppy hats, outlaw everything that obscures your identity. And even then, who has the right to see my face. It's my fcuking face, I can hide it if I wish.
Stupid French racist cow who has nothing better to do than vilify some girl at a beach whose culture preaches modesty.

Egginacup

HurtLocker wrote: »

Well I cant wear a motorcycle helmet or balaclava into a bank, restaurant or supermarket. If I wore a balaclava on a public street or a motorcycle helmet with no bike in sight Id have the gards out to me. The key to a democracy is everyone is treated equally not one segment given exemptions from our social norms due to their social norms back home and their religion. Of course I dont care about having other cultures within our society as we are anation of immigrants ourself but being allowed to cover ones face making oneself anonymous is really up to each country to decide whether they wish to accept this. Try and enter a bank here wearing a face cover for non religious reasons and see how far you get. Secular society should treat every individual the same regardless of background or culture period.

Edit: I presume we are talking about the full face (burka) cover and not the hijab.

The French have actually banned a simple head scarf if it covers the ears and neck.

titan18

Why go a beach and wear a veil? Seems kind of pointless

Packrat

pickarooney wrote: »

except for the freedom of women born in France to wear veils, naturally

Lol at all the 'right on' people thanking this tripe. Wonder how you'll feel in the not so far off day when we have our own "Irish" suicide bombers exploding outside 'Trinners'

El Weirdo wrote: »

And what about French women who wish to wear a burqa?

Simples: The law in France says that they can't. There are a couple of hundred countries where the law either doesent have an opinion, or mandates burkas. Plenty of room in one of those countries, which I assume was the point of that law. I'd support a similar law here.

Eta: Looking at the poll results so far, it appears most people agree.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jimgoose wrote: »

I actually am a xenophobic, right-wing asshole, and sometimes we are needed. And quit claiming monopoly on Righteousness!

You could argue that xenophobic right-wing people who are educated and intelligent may be needed, but such people tend to be extremly rare indeed. And even then, their arguements are easily picked apart.

handlemaster

Egginacup wrote: »

The whole veil ban is rubbish. It's purely to demonise and subjugate Muslims. The excuse given is that France is secular yet I haven't heard any cases of crucifixes being yanked off christians or skullcaps being banned on Jews or turbans being outlawed. And if you want to go down the farcical security route then outlaw sunglasses, women with big floppy hats, outlaw everything that obscures your identity. And even then, who has the right to see my face. It's my fcuking face, I can hide it if I wish.
Stupid French racist cow who has nothing better to do than vilify some girl at a beach whose culture preaches modesty.

Check you on this relgious imblem s are banned in public building s in france

Shakespeare's Sister

Packrat wrote: »

Lol at all the 'right on' people thanking this tripe. Wonder how you'll feel in the not so far off day when we have our own "Irish" suicide bombers exploding outside 'Trinners'

Just because a person doesn't agree with the veil being banned, doesn't mean they're also ok with suicide bombers.
Any muslim customs that harm people should obviously be banned, but the veil, while imbued with vile ideology, is just a garment. Criticise it, yes - it deserves a lot of criticism, but banning the wearing of a garment is what happens in repressive countries - France should be above that.

dirtyden

Its a pretty repressive law for a country that once preached liberty, fraternity and equality.

Nodin

dirtyden wrote: »

Its a pretty repressive law for a country that once preached liberty, fraternity and equality.

Sarkozy was losing votes to the far right at the time. Then all of a sudden he has an idea about banning these things, despite the fact that only around 2,000 women wear it, from a muslim population of 5 - 6 million.

wendell borton

There's currently a fad in China where women are wearing balaclavas to the beach.

Spanish Eyes

Wear veils. No problem.

Wear the total cover face thing with only eyes showing...big problem

Why?... Well covering the head was a big thing for Catholics.. No longer the case.

But what the heck, it was only a hat or a scarf.

But not showing your face except for your eyes....

No thanks. It's not part of our culture. So it's unusual. And weird. And strange.

Ban it. Here now.

Spanish Eyes

dirtyden wrote: »

Its a pretty repressive law for a country that once preached liberty, fraternity and equality.

There are plenty of Muslim countries these fanatics can go to live as they wish. Burkas and all.

But no... They want to impose their wishes on non Muslim cultures.

I'm sure I would be welcomed if I went onto a beach in Saudi in a bikini. Not ever.

why are we pandering to their wishes here and elsewhere?

We need to grow a pair. Really.

Nodin

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There are plenty of Muslim countries these fanatics can go to live as they wish. Burkas and all.

But no... They want to impose their wishes on non Muslim cultures.

I'm sure I would be welcomed if I went onto a beach in Saudi in a bikini. Not ever.

why are we pandering to their wishes here and elsewhere?

We need to grow a pair. Really.

Do us a favour, and explain to me where the 'imposing their wishes on non Muslim cultures' comes into this.

Spanish Eyes

Nodin wrote: »

Do us a favour, and explain to me where the 'imposing their wishes on non Muslim cultures' comes into this.

Well. Can I wear a bikini in Saudi Arabia? NO.

Can a Muslim wear a horrible Burka here? YES.

Should be a quid pro quo at least.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well. Can I wear a bikini in Saudi Arabia? NO.

Can a Muslim wear a horrible Burka here? YES.

Should be a quid pro quo at least.

Yeah let's show them how bad repression is by repressing them

Wat

(also yes you can
http://www.expatwoman.com/saudiarabia/monthly_saudiarabia_out_about_Beaches_in_saudiarabia_11687.aspx
)


If a woman wants to wear a headscarf on a beach let her. If she doesn't want to swim so what! It's not like they don't have burkini swimsuits if she actually wanted to go in the water.
Jaysus

I might wear a flipping headscarf on a beach, stop sunstroke ...

Nodin

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well. Can I wear a bikini in Saudi Arabia? NO.

Can a Muslim wear a horrible Burka here? YES.

Should be a quid pro quo at least.

Only a small number of the worlds muslims are from Saudi Arabia.

Why should we base our laws for attire on what a seemingly randomly chosen country does or does not do?

And again - explain to me where the 'imposing their wishes on non Muslim cultures' comes into this.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There are plenty of Muslim countries these fanatics can go to live as they wish. Burkas and all.

But no... They want to impose their wishes on non Muslim cultures.

I'm sure I would be welcomed if I went onto a beach in Saudi in a bikini. Not ever.

why are we pandering to their wishes here and elsewhere?

We need to grow a pair. Really.

There's an Irish woman, lived in the town I'm from all her life, wears the full burqa. Which of the "Muslim countries" would you send her off to?