Irish government jet

k artrald

Looks like the Irish governments largest jet the gulfstream GIV 251 will be no more.
Seems keeping the jet maintained is getting too expensive. Currently at a gulfstream facility in the United States, it appears the budget has finally ran out.
Officials from the department of finance are currently deciding whether the aircraft can be saved, sold as is or scrapped. I have it on good authority that a department official has traveled to the maintenance facility in America to decide the best course of action. More to follow

Idbatterim

pretty embarrassing a very wealthy country and we present ourselves as paupers! Replace the bloody thing with something reliable, the cost would probably run the place here for a few minutes anyway, but the government are probably worried about this potential show of reckless largesse would look close to election time. :rolleyes:

arubex

Not too surprising. Wasn't it originally justified on the basis of holding the EU Presidency? Even that was a bit of a flimsy excuse, a GIV was overkill.

Using it for a hop over to London this year was an example of style-before-sense. It burns as much fuel in cruise as a Fokker 70... for a handful of passengers.

I can see them trading-in the cramped LJs as well and settling on a couple of stand-up cabin mid-tier bizjets. Perhaps used Challengers or similar.

tayto lover

Idbatterim wrote: »

pretty embarrassing a very wealthy country and we present ourselves as paupers! Replace the bloody thing with something reliable, the cost would probably run the place here for a few minutes anyway, but the government are probably worried about this potential show of reckless largesse would look close to election time. :rolleyes:

We are paupers.
Didn't the mis-management of the country ensure that we had to apply for a bail-out which has to be paid for by the workers of Ireland who are paupers now.

Let them fly in the same manner as other workers.

Idbatterim

We are paupers.
Didn't the mis-management of the country ensure that we had to apply for a bail-out which has to be paid for by the workers of Ireland who are paupers now.

Let them fly in the same manner as other workers.

I think image and presentation is very important! Should they be driving around in 8 or 9 year old mondeos too? There is a lot of scandalous waste here, that should be cut out, including their pensions and perks, but this area shouldn't be one in my opinion.

To use an analogy, we are like a millionaire who claims he is broke because he spends what he earns or slightly more. A lack of money here isn't the problem, the appalling mismanagement of it is...

Irish Steve

Not particularly new news, http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-jet-may-be-grounded-by-lack-of-repair-budget-1.1812976 from May of this year highlighted that there is no budget for other than routine maintenance, and it's not a new jet any more, BA are in the middle of a process of scrapping most of their 747's of similar vintage, and other aircraft of that vintage are also being parted out.

Depending on what's happened, it's altogether possible that something like a bird strike has damaged an engine, and if it's not on a maintenance contract or similar, that could be a large bill, which clearly is not funded right now.

The G IV has a reputation of being a very reliable aircraft, but we have no way to know at present what the issues are with the Irish one.

we shall just have to hope that more specific information will become available before too long.

tayto lover

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think image and presentation is very important! Should they be driving around in 8 or 9 year old mondeos too? There is a lot of scandalous waste here, that should be cut out, including their pensions and perks, but this area shouldn't be one in my opinion.

To use an analogy, we are like a millionaire who claims he is broke because he spends what he earns or slightly more. A lack of money here isn't the problem, the appalling mismanagement of it is...

Why should the Govt travel in luxury while we have ambulances, garda cars and fire brigades breaking down on a regular basis. Those vehicles are far more important than a Govt jet in my opinion as the people rely on them.

Idbatterim

Why should the Govt travel in luxury while we have ambulances, garda cars and fire brigades breaking down on a regular basis. Those vehicles are far more important than a Govt jet in my opinion as the people rely on them.

I absolutely agree about the ambulances, garda cars etc, I just dont agree on where the savings should come from. Some services have been and are being run into the ground (beyond a disgraceful situation) because some sacred cows couldnt possibly be asked to stump up their "fair share"...

Strumms

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think image and presentation is very important! Should they be driving around in 8 or 9 year old mondeos too? There is a lot of scandalous waste here, that should be cut out, including their pensions and perks, but this area shouldn't be one in my opinion.

To use an analogy, we are like a millionaire who claims he is broke because he spends what he earns or slightly more. A lack of money here isn't the problem, the appalling mismanagement of it is...

I think leading by example is more important then image and presentation. Something that has always been systematically lacking in the people who end up erm.. representing and working for the people in this country. I am not informed enough to make a judgement if it is more prudent to keep the GIV or otherwise but when politicians from the president down can travel on commercial they should...

the VP of our district. one of the most respected and revered organizations in the world will travel cheapest fare ie. ryanair and stay in Premier Inn hotels.. he requires and demands the same all the way down the chain depending on the duration of the project and one or two other variables... that's leadership..

Irish Steve

If it was 8 or 9 years old, there might be a case, it's 25 years old, and there are not many 25 year old jets in daily use at this stage, and the maintenance costs on those that are don't bear thinking about.

There are good reasons for having the flexibility of being able to transport Government representatives (not just ministers) at short notice. The hourly operating cost of the G IV are not unreasonable, and getting a jet of that size at short notice is not always easy, and some of the trips that have to be taken cannot be planned with much advance notice.

The begrudgers will make noise about the country having a government jet, but the reality is that pretty much all democratic countries have similar systems, and dictators for sure do, but that last is no recommendation for continuing the practice.

The big issue is going to be how to move forward, there would appear to be a number of options.

1. Dispose of the G IV.
2. Replace the G Iv with something similar,
3. Enter into some form of sharing arrangement for a similar jet
4. Make arrangements to have a jet available for hire at short notice.

Given the age of the present machine, option one looks a sensible plan. Option 2 as a follow on would appear to be realistic, albeit that finding the funding will be problematic. That's their problem, and I'm sure that it will generate reams of paper, and inconvenience millions of electrons, especially in places like this forum and after hours, but like it or not, there are some things that require face to face meetings, and those meetings can't always be scheduled a long time ahead and in places where scheduled airline services operate, and like it or not, Ireland is an island, so getting pretty much anywhere in a sensible time scale requires some form of air transport.

Option 3 has possibilities, and serious limitations, one of which is that the G IV is at present operated by the Air Corps, which has some advantages. The first is that they are trained to deal with operations in hostile areas, and the other, albeit less significant, is that they can if necessary operate in ways that "commercial" operators are not allowed to do.

Option 4 also has possibilities, but the reality is that it will probably end up costing more than owning and operating a G IV replacement, in that the nature of the task is that it has to be available to go pretty much anywhere in the world at short notice, so the costings of a "private" jet hired in are going to be massive, and the operator of such a service will want to make a profit from providing it.

This thread could be a serious contender for popcorn thread of the year by the time its run its course. Where's me comfortable slippers?

Idbatterim

I think leading by example is more important then image and presentation. Something that has always been systematically lacking in the people who end up erm.. representing and working for the people in this country. I am not informed enough to make a judgement if it is more prudent to keep the GIV or otherwise but when politicians from the president down can travel on commercial they should...

the VP of our district. one of the most respected and revered organizations in the world will travel cheapest fare ie. ryanair and stay in Premier Inn hotels.. he requires and demands the same all the way down the chain depending on the duration of the project and one or two other variables... that's leadership..

I agree and fair play to him and commercial should be taken where its an option... Was just taking a look at Gulf Steams competitors i.e. Cessna and Bombardier and was Beechwood another one?! The below looks pretty cool!

http://www.cessna.com/en/citation/longitude

Sorry we can't attend this very important short notice meeting in the middle of the night we have no way of getting there.

Governments are not 9-5 Monday to Friday or to an airline schedule.

The world WON'T wait while we await the arrival of the only weekly scheduled flight to wherever.

They won't re-schedule or delay a meeting till we can get there.

What will happen though is the Learjet 45 and there is only one will be used till it breaks down and then a replacement in the next electoral term WILL have to be found.

roundymac

Was the G4 the one that "Bertie" was nervous about flying on because it was always going tech?

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry we can't attend this very important short notice meeting in the middle of the night we have no way of getting there.

Governments are not 9-5 Monday to Friday or to an airline schedule.

The world WON'T wait while we await the arrival of the only weekly scheduled flight to wherever.

They won't re-schedule or delay a meeting till we can get there.

What will happen though is the Learjet 45 and there is only one will be used till it breaks down and then a replacement in the next electoral term WILL have to be found.

But we will vote the way we're told to vote anyway.

logie101

If my memory serves me right the government spent a crazy amount of money putting two new engines in the Gulfstream a couple if years ago instead of replacing the jet.
Common sense would have resulted in the jet being replaced. I think Gulfstream and a number of aircraft manufacturers provided cost effective replacement options.
But the government did not want to been seen to be buying a new jet even if it was cheaper than throwing money at the Gulfstream.

Crazy!

Idbatterim

If my memory serves me right the government spent a crazy amount of money putting two new engines in the Gulfstream a couple if years ago instead of replacing the jet.
Common sense would have resulted in the jet being replaced. I think Gulfstream and a number of aircraft manufacturers provided cost effective replacement options.
But the government did not want to been seen to be buying a new jet even if it was cheaper than throwing money at the Gulfstream.

Crazy!

yeah typical Ireland! why invest 10 million when you can send 1 or 2 up in smoke, but hey, its better for optics right! Why dont we put the government jet decision to a referendum, arent we specialists at consensus here?

You would actually swear Enda was going to be flying about in a new A380 "EirForce a hain" its pathetic!

logie101

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah typical Ireland! why invest 10 million when you can send 1 or 2 up in smoke, but hey, its better for optics right! Why dont we put the government jet decision to a referendum, arent we specialists at consensus here?

You would actually swear Enda was going to be flying about in a new A380 "AerForce a hain" its pathetic!

Two new engines for the Gulfstream would of cost around €18 million.
They should of traded the old jet back to Gulfstream and leased a new one. That would of been what was logical.

eusap

At least the Learjet can be changed into an Air Ambulance at short notice, i think lots of people do not agree with the expense for ministerial transport if a Government jet can save one life its worth it.

EchoIndia

An online production list for the Gulfstream IV records none of the 825 built to date as having been scrapped to date and the type is still in production in developed form as the G-450. http://rzjets.net/aircraft/?page=1&typeid=122

These aircraft do not see anything like the amount of usage that an airliner does and calendar age is not very meaningful as a measure of their reliability or value. If anything, I suspect that the Irish Gulfstream has seen less use under this Government than previous ones, for political rather than operational reasons. It has made a good few visits to Shannon for circuit training, presumably to maintain crew proficiency.

If the Government decides not to retain the aircraft, barring some major structural problem it would be sold, as have previous transport types such as the King Airs and the HS125.

barney4001

do away with them and let the gov travel like the rest of us do,they are paying themselves well enough to do that anyway

ted1

barney4001 wrote: »

do away with them and let the gov travel like the rest of us do,they are paying themselves well enough to do that anyway

And if they need to get to meetings on places where scheduled flights don't go. At times that scheduled flights don't go. There's a very good case for them having access to a jet.

tayto lover

ted1 wrote: »

And if they need to get to meetings on places where scheduled flights don't go. At times that scheduled flights don't go. There's a very good case for them having access to a jet.

Tele-conferencing is the way to go.

EchoIndia

tayto lover wrote: »

Tele-conferencing is the way to go.

You obviously have a lot of experience in international business and diplomacy.:eek:

logie101

barney4001 wrote: »

do away with them and let the gov travel like the rest of us do,they are paying themselves well enough to do that anyway

While this might be a populist statement to make. The reality is that a significant proportion of TD's are very talented individuals with many coming from successful professional careers in finance, law, business etc. Many take significant pay cuts when entering politics and are always working.
In regards the Government jet I believe that it is an essential tool that used correctly can save Ministers & High ranking civil servants time and therefore "get more business done" for Ireland.

tayto lover

EchoIndia wrote: »

You obviously have a lot of experience in international business and diplomacy.:eek:

Most of the tools we send over to Europe should be sent in horseboxes.

ted1

tayto lover wrote: »

Tele-conferencing is the way to go.

Tele conferencing has its place, but you need to meet the person in the real world. To build up a rapport and relationship especially when dealing with different cultures. You need to press the flesh

Captain Chaos

EchoIndia wrote: »

You obviously have a lot of experience in international business and diplomacy.:eek:

How do the Uk government get around then. They use BA or the RAF.

ted1

Captain Chaos wrote: »

How do the Uk government get around then. They use BA or the RAF.

The RAF have a huge fleet of planes available. The aer corps don't .

man98

Why do we need a big fuel burning private jet? What we need is something like a Casa 235 or Embraer 135. The Casa would be cheap, and the Air Corps already have 2 of them. If speed is really an issue, an Embraer 135 could do just fine. VIP Configured of course to each. 20 passengers could comfortably fly in each.

Terrontress

ted1 wrote: »

And if they need to get to meetings on places where scheduled flights don't go. At times that scheduled flights don't go. There's a very good case for them having access to a jet.

What sort of places do ministers go that scheduled airlines don't go but have a secured airfield to land a Gulfstream? Presumably any Irish military deployment has troop transport etc going there so a private jet isn't necessary

syklops

Presumably any Irish military deployment has troop transport etc going there so a private jet isn't necessary

Troop transport? :rolleyes:

Half the time we use the RAF. Or BA.

0lddog

Perhaps the local aircraft leasing fraternity would be able to offer the use of something gratis ?

Its not as if the Govt & Dep of Fin dont bend over backwards ( not to say forwards ) to make them happy.

Terrontress

So would one of the justifications for the private jet be a minister going out to Lebanon when troops are stationed there?

I'd imagine the majority of ministerial transit is to Brussels and there are plenty of flights, hotels, first class train travel.

logie101

The Government Jets are also used to transport the President of this Republic. The president who is elected directly into office by the people not like Ministers.

I for one wouldn't like the idea of the President, while on state business, queuing for commercial flights.

I would prefer for the government to sell the PC-9s (which are abit over the top for what they are used for) and buy a new Government Jet.

Tenger

logie101 wrote: »

The Government Jets are also used to transport the President of this Republic. The president who is elected directly into office by the people not like Ministers.

I for one wouldn't like the idea of the President, while on state business, queuing for commercial flights.

But he himself has travelling several times on commercial flights as he realises the negative PR that can develop around the use of the 'govt jet'.

The Govt needs to have access to some form of private transport as last minute changes happen, being reliant of the vagaries of the European aviation industry is not good in international politics.

Terrontress

logie101 wrote: »

The Government Jets are also used to transport the President of this Republic. The president who is elected directly into office by the people not like Ministers.

I for one wouldn't like the idea of the President, while on state business, queuing for commercial flights.

I would prefer for the government to sell the PC-9s (which are abit over the top for what they are used for) and buy a new Government Jet.

Certainly at Dublin there is a VIP facility with no need to queue through security.

Do his minders carry firearms when he travels? That could show things up.

christy c

logie101 wrote: »

The Government Jets are also used to transport the President of this Republic. The president who is elected directly into office by the people not like Ministers.

I for one wouldn't like the idea of the President, while on state business, queuing for commercial flights.

I would prefer for the government to sell the PC-9s (which are abit over the top for what they are used for) and buy a new Government Jet.

Google Michael D Higgins on Ryanair flight

logie101

christy c wrote: »

Google Michael D Higgins on Ryanair flight

Yes I know the President has flown Ryanair and indeed goes Aer Lingus while holidaying in Lanzarote.

But as I said while on state business representing Ireland Inc and maybe even helping to develop foreign direct investment I for one would prefer the President to travel in an Aer Corp executive jet.

syklops

Terrontress wrote: »

So would one of the justifications for the private jet be a minister going out to Lebanon when troops are stationed there?

I'd imagine the majority of ministerial transit is to Brussels and there are plenty of flights, hotels, first class train travel.

Its an unpopular opinion I know, but our ministers do travel a lot, and commercial flights take it out of you. Do we want our ministers travelling and then taking a day on either end of the journey to recover from the flight? With the relative luxury of a jet, they can work and rest efficiently. Absenteeism is high in the back benches, but back benchers rarely see the inside of the jet. The high level ministers work practically seven days a week in many cases.

Another unpopular opinion is there is a PR element to it. If you are trying to impress upon Silicon Valley that we are a high tech, modern nation with a high skilled workforce (knowledge economy), do we want the Minister for Jobs and Enterprise stepping off a commercial plane? While it is easy to say instead of the jet we could hire 1000 more gardai, but really the 40Million or so a jet costs is a drop in the ocean compared to our expenditure, plus we run the very real risk of not replacing the jet and saying we are "saving" the money, and having the money eaten up by other expenditure, resulting in no jet and nothing tangible to show for it.

folbotcar

Slightly bemused by some of the comments here on this thread. Clearly some of you haven't heard of private jet charter companies of which Netjets is only the most famous. No less a person than the Queen arrived in Ireland in a chartered jet.

There is no logical reason or need for the government to own a something the size of a GIV when they can call up a suitably sized jet in less than a few hours from most corporate jet operators.

Most of the arguments against this are specious. Operating into hostile areas for example. Since when has this happened ever? If there's a genuine threat then the GIV have no business being there. Commercial operators operated into Baghdad and Kandahar regularly. Definitely hostile!

The supposed high cost of short notice charters. Netjets offer 24 hours notice as standard. I'm quite sure others offer shorter times. After all their clientele are the rich, famous and powerful who are not used to hearing no. Any competition from the government will attract competitive tenders. A prestigious contract like that will be snapped up.

Another advantage is that aircraft can be tailored to the number of people needing to travel. Lots of people = big plane. Small numbers = a 'cramped' Learjet. (Well, cry me a river!). This will cut costs automatically. Remember too that training and currency will now be the responsibility of the operator. No need to be burning money keeping the crews current during a quiet periods.

As for the PR element of the minister stepping out of a jet marked with the tricolour and harp. Corporations care nothing for symbolism, hard cash is what counts.

Other arguments around confidentiality are moot, corporate operators offer exactly that as a matter of course.

There is nothing wrong with flying commercial when appropriate and the reality is that it's more common than many realise.

Flying commercial combined with the use of the Learjet (cramped or not) and hiring in when needed makes a great deal more sense than keeping something like a GIV on permanent standby?

The GIV was bought in the grand old days of Fianna Fail government excess. It's a relic of that period. There is no justification in replacing like with like.

The only risk as I see it is that the government does nothing at all and relies on ad hoc charters combined with commercial flights and the Learjet until that wears out. That wouldn't surprise me at all.

Irish Steve

tayto lover wrote: »

Tele-conferencing is the way to go.

Absolutely NO WAY.

Do you really want fundamental critical decisions being made when the people making the decision can't see the whites of the eyes of the others in the room?

We're not talking cosy little chats over what flavour of tea should be served at the next committee meeting, or what colour to paint the office corridors, the sorts of meetings that happen at 0 dark hundred in some obscure town in the middle of nowhere are decisions about fundamental things like the EU response to the MH17 shootdown in Ukraine, or decisions about how to deal with something like the Ebola virus, or how to implement and fund a massive aid programme to help a country rebuild after a massive natural disaster,

These sorts of things are the highest level of political pressure, and absolutely requires that the people making those decision are in the room, and can both see and sense the real opinions of the rest of the participants.

Do that by teleconferencing? No thanks, the potential for Ireland being even more screwed than we already are would be massive if we were relegated to having to be second tier participants in crisis talks.

We're not talking about a massive trans continental jet here, it's an executive jet that is designed to get people to places that they need to be at in a sensible timescale and in an acceptable physical and mental state that allows them to fully participate in the meeting.

In the same vein, would you really expect a minister to perform adequately in a high level meeting shortly after having spent 8 hours in an economy seat with 2 or 3 screaming kids climbing the back of his seat for the entire flight?

EchoIndia

Irish Steve wrote: »

In the same vein, would you really expect a minister to perform adequately in a high level meeting shortly after having spent 8 hours in an economy seat with 2 or 3 screaming kids climbing the back of his seat for the entire flight?

Judging by several of the contributions to this discussion, clearly the answer is "yes"! Thankfully, government by internet discussion board has not yet become a reality.

Bsal

Can they not have a 'lend' of Mr. O' Briens G650 or Mr. Goodmans Falcon 7X how many times have they gotten a freebie from the government :P:P :pac::pac::rolleyes:

Blue Punto

I think it would be a shame to let it go ,but who knows at the moment


251 by niallsaviation, on Flickr

debabyjesus

They should charter a wx avro. Or buy one off them altogether for about three fiddy! If its good enough for lizzy surely our lads could potter around in one!

Landing in fields all over the country opening shops rezoning land collecting tax or whatever it is governments do.

suasdaguna2

logie101 wrote: »

Yes I know the President has flown Ryanair and indeed goes Aer Lingus while holidaying in Lanzarote.

But as I said while on state business representing Ireland Inc and maybe even helping to develop foreign direct investment I for one would prefer the President to travel in an Aer Corp executive jet.

Well it didnt stop the pres using AL recently to Chicago where he was treated like royalty. The sooner we get off the stage the better thinking we are a nation able to swan around in a clapped out Gulfstream. Ire has more or less come through bankruptcy and should act accordingly.

Rawr

Would a possible option be to have an Aer Lingus airliner available for state use as a short-notice wet lease?

I can easily be wrong here, but I think some states opt to use their flag-carrier for government flights. A shiny green Aer Lingus jet kind of shouts out 'Irish-ness' and I feel would be an appropriate means of transporting the president etc...

L1011

suasdaguna2 wrote: »

The sooner we get off the stage the better thinking we are a nation able to swan around in a clapped out Gulfstream. Ire has more or less come through bankruptcy and should act accordingly.

With the exception of the US, the crapper the ministerial transport the wealthier the country seems to be the case. UK hasn't got any. Merkel had a wrecked A310 until a while ago...

Micky D usually has a full day before any actual 'work' on his trips abroad, something ministers don't have the benefit of.

SpaceTime

Whether it's practical or not, the problem is a public perception that it's an unnecessary perk for overpaid politicians.

There were too many incidences of the government jet bring abused by ministers for quasi personal use in the Tigre era.

No one batted an eyelid when the irish navy spent €150 million on three navy ships.

suasdaguna2

So we keep a Learjet type? Not comfy but point and squirt. It'll put off the jolley merchants but will get a minister on site if required . Surely the govt to can lower itself and be a net jets client?