NPPR has not been declared

nunn351

Friend of mine was with solicitor today , and was told that he has to declare his 2nd residence .
He has never paid NPPR , and needs to register by 31st August deadline .

Can anyone tell me how much is outstanding at this stage , and what type of easy payments will the Local Authority accept ?

dori_dormer

When you register online, you tick all the boxes and it adds it up for you. A friend missed 2012 and 2013 and owed 1000. 620ish for 2012 and 380ish for 2103. It gets massively expensive quickly.

The_Morrigan

Go here then go to the FAQ section - there is a table of Charges & Late Payment Fees noted and further down the list there is Late Payment Fees section;

A person who does not pay a NPPR charge by the payment date leaves themselves open to prosecution by the Local Authority to whom the payment is due. A late payment fee will also arise if payment is not made by the payment date - see above. Furthermore, both the NPPR charge and any accumulated late payment fee will be a charge against the property concerned and will continue to be such for twelve years after the charge or late payment fees concerned became due. Any NPPR charges or late payment fees due on a residential property will have to be discharged, in full, before a transfer or sale of the property can be completed.
The table below outlines the NPPR charge and the corresponding late payment fees for each year at monthly intervals.

Only the local authority can advise on a payment plan, so I would suggest you contact them directly.

nunn351

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Go here then go to the FAQ section - there is a table of Charges & Late Payment Fees noted and further down the list there is Late Payment Fees section;


Only the local authority can advise on a payment plan, so I would suggest you contact them directly.

After reading through the FAQ above , it looks like the amount outstanding to December 2013 is 3920 euro .

I see it seems to have ended there .

sunnysoutheast

nunn351 wrote: »

Friend of mine was with solicitor today , and was told that he has to declare his 2nd residence .
He has never paid NPPR , and needs to register by 31st August deadline .

Can anyone tell me how much is outstanding at this stage , and what type of easy payments will the Local Authority accept ?

If never paid it will be €4220 if paid or a payment plan agreed with LA before August 31.

If not paid or agreed, it will be fixed at €7230 with a charge against the property for 12 years (not sure if that's from the original date or Sep 1st 2014).

It's all over the papers and radio now:
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/property-owners-risk-penalty-of-7-230-as-amnesty-ends-1.1894607

I am curious as to what happens if the property isn't sold or transferred before the 12 years is up. Not sure if the LAs will chase for it before that.

The_Morrigan

nunn351 wrote: »

After reading through the FAQ above , it looks like the amount outstanding to December 2013 is 3920 euro .

I see it seems to have ended there .

You've read it wrong. Ring the local authority and sort it out, you can't really escape it.

wmpdd3

There are 4 people on my road that will be hit, they are all nearly pensioners or pensioners.


Not 2nd homes as such but houses that were never transferred out of the previous owners name. The houses are only worth about €50,000, and need another 10k spent on them to make them warm.

if the fees and charges increase any further on the 12 years, the revenue will own the house.

bluemartin

You might find this thread on AAM interesting. As I am a new user I cant yet post links just put askaboutmoney before the following....

/showthread.php?t=188723

Tigger

wmpdd3 wrote: »

There are 4 people on my road that will be hit, they are all nearly pensioners or pensioners.


Not 2nd homes as such but houses that were never transferred out of the previous owners name. The houses are only worth about €50,000, and need another 10k spent on them to make them warm.

if the fees and charges increase any further on the 12 years, the revenue will own the house.

why weren't they transferred out of the previous owner's name ?
4 houses on one road where the houses are in the wrong name seems really weird

garhjw

Are owners now receiving letters advising them they have an outstanding NPPR charge?

nunn351

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Go here then go to the FAQ section - there is a table of Charges & Late Payment Fees noted and further down the list there is Late Payment Fees section;



Only the local authority can advise on a payment plan, so I would suggest you contact them directly.

Any idea what type payment plan could be arranged ? It will take at least 4 years to pay €4500

The_Morrigan

nunn351 wrote: »

Any idea what type payment plan could be arranged ? It will take at least 4 years to pay €4500

Ask the local authority

Samsgirl

The first we heard about this was on the news tonight. We rented out our house in sept 2013 while we moved to a different county & we now rent a house to live in ourselves. Does anyone know what we are liable for as the house was only rented for 3 months in 2013? Cheers

HeidiHeidi

Samsgirl wrote: »

The first we heard about this was on the news tonight. We rented out our house in sept 2013 while we moved to a different county & we now rent a house to live in ourselves. Does anyone know what we are liable for as the house was only rented for 3 months in 2013? Cheers

I don't know what you're liable for, but it's nothing to do with your original house being rented out - it's to do with owning it in the first place, while not living in it. Even if it's vacant you're liable.

The_Morrigan

Samsgirl wrote: »

The first we heard about this was on the news tonight. We rented out our house in sept 2013 while we moved to a different county & we now rent a house to live in ourselves. Does anyone know what we are liable for as the house was only rented for 3 months in 2013? Cheers

FAQ's are here

nunn351

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Ask the local authority

Have been talking to Local Authority they said drop it in next week ( the 4220 that is )

Now notice that another €20 is added on every month that the amount is outstanding and if you pay over the counter you pay a charge of €10 every time

The_Morrigan

nunn351 wrote: »

Have been talking to Local Authority they said drop it in next week ( the 4220 that is )

Now notice that another €20 is added on every month that the amount is outstanding and if you pay over the counter you pay a charge of €10 every time

The local authorities make up their own procedures, they are not standard across every LA across the country. The only people who can answer your questions in relation to payment of arrears & penalties is the LA you're dealing with.

dafooza

Hi, just to let you know in relation tonppr charge if u owned or owned a second property between 2009 and 2013 you are liable for this charge which was 200e annually.if you failed to pay this (LIKE I DID) you are now liable for 4220e payable on or bafore the last friday of this month.thereafter it increases to 7320e.if you contact your local councilthey will be more than happy to deal with you and come to an arrangement on payments to clear your bill.you can space it out over a number of years, say 100e a month as I have just done today.its up to you but I would not ignore this.if you choose to ignore it no one yet knows where this fine will stop over a period of years hope this is of benefit to you

wmpdd3

Tigger wrote: »

why weren't they transferred out of the previous owner's name ?
4 houses on one road where the houses are in the wrong name seems really weird

They are old houses and are small, when the original owners died other people took them over, they wouldn't have been seen as family homes at the time.

lifestooshort

can anyone clarify if local authorities have been given 11 years to collect outstanding NPPR charge liabilities and 31 March 2025 is the date that has been chosen that all charges will be defunct and the property is free to be sold/passed on with no charges attached?

The_Conductor

lifestooshort wrote: »

can anyone clarify if local authorities have been given 11 years to collect outstanding NPPR charge liabilities and 31 March 2025 is the date that has been chosen that all charges will be defunct and the property is free to be sold/passed on with no charges attached?

Please provide a reference to where you're getting this from.

Into The Blue

Samsgirl wrote: »

The first we heard about this was on the news tonight. We rented out our house in sept 2013 while we moved to a different county & we now rent a house to live in ourselves. Does anyone know what we are liable for as the house was only rented for 3 months in 2013? Cheers

If you had any bills posted to the rented address dated March or April of 2013 year that'll be enough to say you were living in the house for the full 12 months.

Unless you declared the rental income?

murphaph

wmpdd3 wrote: »

They are old houses and are small, when the original owners died other people took them over, they wouldn't have been seen as family homes at the time.

What other people? Family? If these other people were living in these properties then there us no NPPR liability

Arbiter of Good Taste

Into The Blue wrote: »

If you had any bills posted to the rented address dated March or April of 2013 year that'll be enough to say you were living in the house for the full 12 months.

Unless you declared the rental income?

But surely if they were living in the house on 31 March 2013, then it was their principal private residence at the relevant date and as such the charge wouldn't apply for that year?

NIMAN

I am sure there are plenty of folk who jumped on the "bugger them, I'm not paying that corrupt tax" bandwagon, egg'd on by the lefties who told everyone not to pay, and who are now up to their eyes in debt and are going to have to pay it someway.

lifestooshort

environ.ie - the following titled document appears
local government reform act 2014
nppr charge - outstanding liabilities
guidance note for city and county councils
dept of the environment, community and local government

then under section 2.9 titled certificates of discharge and exemption, you will see reference to the abolition of these charges.

also on the oireachtas.ie site, there is a document titled LOCAL GOVERNMENT REFORM BILL 2013 and under section 32 (3), you will again find reference to the 12 year time limit on these charges.

mrsbyrne

If you even remotely suspect that you may owe this tax you must contact your local authority before 31st August as the penalty is going to escalate on that date.

Tigger

wmpdd3 wrote: »

They are old houses and are small, when the original owners died other people took them over, they wouldn't have been seen as family homes at the time.

How do you mean "took them over" , are you saying that people died with no wills and other people took possession of these houses unofficially?
Well then either these houses are soo off the grid that revenue won't find them or they belong to someone
If that someone turns out to be the occupiers (squatters rights or whatnot ) then there is no nppr on the house and if the owner is someone else then they will vegetating a house they had forgotten about on didn't know about for cheap

The_Conductor

Link here

Note- just because it is not a charge against the property- does not mean it cannot be chased by the council or local authority- it simply means, its no longer a specific charge against the property.

If you want to play mind games with the council for the next 11 years- fine- do so- however- if you look at the other provisions- including using the sheriff to enforce dues and fines- you are setting yourself up for a torrid time.......

lifestooshort

But it may be of help to all the emigrants who lost their jobs and are trying to make a living for themselves in UK, Canada, Australia, Dubai etc and cannot afford to come home until 15 to 20 years time. I don't know how revenue can chase them outside of the Irish jurisdiction and at least its one less charge for them to worry about when they do return to retire?

The_Conductor

lifestooshort wrote: »

But it may be of help to all the emigrants who lost their jobs and are trying to make a living for themselves in UK, Canada, Australia, Dubai etc and cannot afford to come home until 15 to 20 years time. I don't know how revenue can chase them outside of the Irish jurisdiction and at least its one less charge for them to worry about when they do return to retire?

They can come back. They can still be pursued.
The lien is no longer on the property- the debt has not however been extinguished (its just that bit more difficult for the council/authority to chase it).

In any event- if they are going abroad for the period- are they going to leave the house to rack and ruin- you'd be amazed at how fast even a brand-new property will deteriorate in 10 years, if it has zero upkeep. Or if it is tended, and has occupants- whats the story with property tax, water rates etc etc? However bad it is having the councils and local authorities chasing you for unpaid NPPR dues- its a doosie compared to having the Revenue Commissioners on your back- and remember they compound @ 12%- ontop of all the penalties etc.

You're really whipping a dead horse on this one.

lifestooshort

always going to find a 'maintenance man' you can trust (everyone is trying to earn a bit of extra dough these days). You sell the house after 31 March 2025. You don't want to return to Ireland and you are happy and healthy enough to retire wherever else your heart desires. Too simpleminded?

The_Conductor

lifestooshort wrote: »

always going to find a 'maintenance man' you can trust (everyone is trying to earn a bit of extra dough these days). You sell the house after 31 March 2025. You don't want to return to Ireland and you are happy and healthy enough to retire wherever else your heart desires. Too simpleminded?

Ok- thats the NPPR (which doesn't even exist anymore). What about the Local Property tax- which is the remit of the Revenue Commissioners- and the new State Collection Agency- what you're proposing really doesn't stack up. Nice try though.

lifestooshort

Tigger wrote: »

True but Revenue wil collect before 12 years pass

Thanks Tigger. Re collecting NPPR before 12 years pass - do you mean the Revenue Section of the Local Authority or do you mean Revenue Commissioners? Revenue.ie state that the NPPR collection is the responsibility of the Local Authority. Or have things changed and the Local Authority is turning it over to Revenue Commissioners? I know the LPT is the responsibility of Irish Revenue.

Tigger

lifestooshort wrote: »

Thanks Tigger. Re collecting NPPR before 12 years pass - do you mean the Revenue Section of the Local Authority or do you mean Revenue Commissioners? Revenue.ie state that the NPPR collection is the responsibility of the Local Authority. Or have things changed and the Local Authority is turning it over to Revenue Commissioners? I know the LPT is the responsibility of Irish Revenue.

no i was thinking of the lpt
sorry

lifestooshort

Tigger wrote: »

no i was thinking of the lpt
sorry

Thanks, no worries.

jack_pearse

Am I right in saying that from 31st oct 2021 the charge and fines for 2009 will no longer apply to the property? And 31st march 2022 they will no longer apply for the 2010 charge etc?

lifestooshort

jack_pearse wrote: »

Am I right in saying that from 31st oct 2021 the charge and fines for 2009 will no longer apply to the property? And 31st march 2022 they will no longer apply for the 2010 charge etc?

Am not sure about that - from reading the report, I was under the impression that the years from 2009 to 2013 were going to be addressed collectively and the charges for all those years inclusively was going to be scrapped on the one date of 31 March 2025. The report suggests that it will be 12 years from the year the NPPR charged ended in 2013. Apologies if this sounds confusing - it took me about two days to find the information and then figure it out!! Also of note - revenue commissioners do not want to have anything to do with collecting this outstanding NPPR charge: they are adamant that its up to the local authority. Revenue commissioners are responsible for the LPT (local property tax) only.

The_Conductor

lifestooshort wrote: »

Also of note - revenue commissioners do not want to have anything to do with collecting this outstanding NPPR charge: they are adamant that its up to the local authority. Revenue commissioners are responsible for the LPT (local property tax) only.

Correct.
The current proposal is that the Local Authorities who are having difficulty in collecting payments will allowed pass the collection over to the new State Collection's Agency (who will handle all manner of payment collections- including delinquint A&E charges for the HSE etc etc etc).

lifestooshort

The_Conductor wrote: »

Correct.
The current proposal is that the Local Authorities who are having difficulty in collecting payments will allowed pass the collection over to the new State Collection's Agency (who will handle all manner of payment collections- including delinquint A&E charges for the HSE etc etc etc).

I didn't know there was a new State Collection Agency already set up - I was aware of discussions taking place about setting it up. I have tried to access its website regarding its policies and procedures but can't find same.

The_Conductor

Its not up and running yet- there are submissions being made by the State agencies at present.

Frust

DId anyone contact the authorities and try and do a deal with them. I owe the full wack and do not have the money to pay it. Thanks

lifestooshort

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not up and running yet- there are submissions being made by the State agencies at present.

ok, thanks. it will be interesting to see if this agency is sanctioned before the forthcoming general election - then again, what does any government (past or present) care? they still get their pensions after their little 'stints' in power and whatever communist regime we are governed by will still be bowing down to Europe. So lets pay all the money and taxes and fines and you never know - we may acquire the same lifestyles and health/welfare services as Germany, Sweden, Holland etc.

muggles

Frust wrote: »

DId anyone contact the authorities and try and do a deal with them. I owe the full wack and do not have the money to pay it. Thanks

I was wondering the same thing (not for myself thankfully) but for an elderly aunt living in UK who has a home here (not let). Not that the specifics are relevant. She was made aware of the charge and didn't pay it when she should have. I do however feel sympathy for her, and all others, who are now facing a liability of over €4,000. The penalty charges are without doubt severe.

Does anyone have any experience or heard on a settlement being reached with the local authorities. I don't mean in terms of a payment plan but rather a lump sum payment - say here's €3,000 as full and final liability??

garhjw

Frust wrote: »

DId anyone contact the authorities and try and do a deal with them. I owe the full wack and do not have the money to pay it. Thanks

did you receive any correspondance from the local authority recently about the outstanding NPPR or do you just know you owe it? i think they have to have people in place to work out payment plans etc.

good luck

jack_pearse

(2) The said property shall not, as against a bona fide purchaser for full consideration in money or money’s worth or a mortgagee, remain charged with or liable to the payment of such unpaid charge or late payment fee after the expiration of 12 years from the date upon which the amount concerned fell due.

This is what the legislation says (above), it's unclear to me wether the it's 12 years from 2009 for the first missed payment or 12 years from the year the NPPR charge ended in 2013 for the collective payment. How do other people interpret this?

The_Conductor

jack_pearse wrote: »

(2) The said property shall not, as against a bona fide purchaser for full consideration in money or money’s worth or a mortgagee, remain charged with or liable to the payment of such unpaid charge or late payment fee after the expiration of 12 years from the date upon which the amount concerned fell due.

This is what the legislation says (above), it's unclear to me wether the it's 12 years from 2009 for the first missed payment or 12 years from the year the NPPR charge ended in 2013 for the collective payment. How do other people interpret this?

When is the date of application of the last penalty or late payment fee applying to the payments due? Add 12 years to it. Its the date the last penalties are added to the unpaid NPPR- not the date on which the NPPR itself was due, +12 years.

Philcan

Anyone heard of local authorities sending out NPPR letters looking for an incorrect amount?

A person I know has 2 NPPR properties and did not pay the NPPR charge for either property. She received a letter recently looking for approx 20k (when it should be 4220 * 2).

Samsgirl

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

But surely if they were living in the house on 31 March 2013, then it was their principal private residence at the relevant date and as such the charge wouldn't apply for that year?

You are 100% correct there!! I registered on the nppr website & because we were still living there as our ppr on 31/03/13 we have no liability!!

Arbiter of Good Taste

Samsgirl wrote: »

You are 100% correct there!! I registered on the nppr website & because we were still living there as our ppr on 31/03/13 we have no liability!!

That is the view I took because to me it is very clear from the legislation that you look at the position at 31 March 2013. I emailed DCC to confirm and I got an automated response telling me that they are busy and will reply in 2 weeks!!!!:eek:

Not good enough.

garhjw

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

That is the view I took because to me it is very clear from the legislation that you look at the position at 31 March 2013. I emailed DCC to confirm and I got an automated response telling me that they are busy and will reply in 2 weeks!!!!:eek:

Not good enough.

based on my previous experience with questions on the household charge, I think 2 weeks is optimistic. I was waiting almost 6 week earlier thus year!