Advice needed! New puppy

D8 Saint

Hello all,

I'm hoping someone with a good knowledge of puppies/dogs can give some advice to make things go a bit smoother for us.

On Saturday we brought home a new puppy, a Cocker Spaniel who is 11 weeks today. He's great and very playful. But the real problem we have is when it's time for him to go to asleep for the night.

We've been using a kennel downstairs in the sitting room. The kitchen isn't really an option at the minute. We've been taking the roof off it and putting him inside and locking the door. The first night he pretty much cried all night. We expected this so weren't too concerned. When I went down to him in the morning he had crapped and urinated in the kennel.

The second night we did the same, he cried for a long time again. When I went down to him the next morning he was asleep on the mat in the sitting room. He had somehow jumped out, which is dangerous. Last night, he did the same - cry alot and then when I went down to him in the morning he had again managed to jump out.

The reason we don't want him upstairs yet is that we want him to get used to being by himself. In September he will be alone for a few hours at a time as I'm starting a new job.

He's been here 3 nights now so should be getting used to sleeping alone at night but putting him in the kennel isn't really working. Putting the roof on and locking the door is also not going to work.

Should we keep putting him in the kennel like we have been or just bring his bed upstairs? If we do, he'll find it hard being alone in the future. He's not toilet trained yet but is getting there.

andreac

Ok firstly, stop locking him in a kennel all night. The poor puppy is probably bursting for the toilet. At 11 weeks their bladder is still weak and they cannot hold it in all night.

If you want him in the kennel, then you must get up at least once if not twice and let him out to the toilet, as you are being very unfair doing what you are at the moment to him.

What time do you feed him at night and does he get a little walk and toilet before bedtime?

Hooked

I personally wouldn't have a dog (we have 2) upstairs. Here's a thread that discusses puppies, crate training and toilet training...

Others will be along soon with more info. I'm on me lunch, typing on the phone.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057258468/1/#post91479637

cocker5

D8 Saint wrote: »

Hello all,

I'm hoping someone with a good knowledge of puppies/dogs can give some advice to make things go a bit smoother for us.

On Saturday we brought home a new puppy, a Cocker Spaniel who is 11 weeks today. He's great and very playful. But the real problem we have is when it's time for him to go to asleep for the night.

We've been using a kennel downstairs in the sitting room. The kitchen isn't really an option at the minute. We've been taking the roof off it and putting him inside and locking the door. The first night he pretty much cried all night. We expected this so weren't too concerned. When I went down to him in the morning he had crapped and urinated in the kennel.

The second night we did the same, he cried for a long time again. When I went down to him the next morning he was asleep on the mat in the sitting room. He had somehow jumped out, which is dangerous. Last night, he did the same - cry alot and then when I went down to him in the morning he had again managed to jump out.

The reason we don't want him upstairs yet is that we want him to get used to being by himself. In September he will be alone for a few hours at a time as I'm starting a new job.

He's been here 3 nights now so should be getting used to sleeping alone at night but putting him in the kennel isn't really working. Putting the roof on and locking the door is also not going to work.

Should we keep putting him in the kennel like we have been or just bring his bed upstairs? If we do, he'll find it hard being alone in the future. He's not toilet trained yet but is getting there.

Please tell me locking him inside the kennel at 11 weeks (or infact locking him in at all) is a joke? Please tell me this is a wind up?

I have a cocker spaniel and if I did this to him now (he’s 9) he too would crap and urinate the whole kennel… the fear, anxiety, the stress, i am at all loss as to why any sane person would do this i really am.

I am lost for words im sorry, I actually am sad here trying this thinking of your puppy….

Milly33

Yep stop putting him the kennel.. Have you had puppies or dogs before? as whoever told you to do this right now id say was wrong..

Like that sure he cant get out to go pee if you lock him in there.. and the crying sure his just lonely, he is a puppy after all. Get rid of the kennel for now and leave him in the room for the night nothing wrong with that bit. Get him a nice cosy bed, if he doesn't settle try getting some sort of teddy that has a heartbeat..Sounds odd but the teddy bear factories you can get them there. it might soothe him or leave music on in the backround so he knows he isn't alone..

dharma200

Op don't go down the road of the outraged crying replies... You sound like you care a lot for your puppy and want to do what is best for him...
please look into crate training, a kennel inside with a closed door won't do, a crate is much more effective. Also look into taking puppy out for pee poo in middle of night for a few weeks... It should help.
kennel won't work, get a large crate from a pet store and begin to crate train the puppy. Good luck, there is plenty online on crate training and it is very effective.

D8 Saint

Like I said I'm here looking for some advice. I'm trying to do things a better way. Instead of being so critical, can you give me some suggestions? How did you train your puppy in this situation?

Thanks for the useful replies, I'm trying to do the right thing.

Whispered

D8 Saint wrote: »

How did you train your puppy in this situation?

Get a dog crate or a puppy pen. Set it up in the room. Make it a really fun place to be during the day, have him eat in there and get nice treats when he goes in etc. Do not put him in, encourage him by tossing tasty bits in. Make it really comfy and at first don't close the door. Wait until he's happy to rest in there before locking it. Then build up to him being left alone in it for short periods of time.

At night, puppy will need a nice little walk before bed, make sure he is very tired (playing and some obedience training will tire him out), is not hungry and has gone to the toilet. Set your alarm for 3 hours later. Get up, wake pup, go outside and stand there until he goes to the toilet again. No interaction or anything, until he goes, then gentle praise and back to bed. Once back to bed, set alarm for 3 hours later again, and repeat. Once he's comfortable doing 3 hours without dirtying his crate you can increase it to 4, then 5, then overnight, but it takes time and by trying to rush it you will only slow the process down. (you don't want him learning to toilet in his bed!)

gimmick

Don't lock the door on him. If he wants to ramble around the kitchen at night, so be it.

I have a 2 year old cocker. Luckily he was a star when it came to night time, but for the first few nights we still went down at least once just to make sure he was ok. Im sure we were sure enough after around 2/3 weeks of having him that there was no longer any ned to go down as he was not soiling.

Make sure his last feed is 3-4 hours before bedtime and always take him out for a "constitutional" just before bed time, be it 5 minutes up the road and back or just out the back garden so he can be as empty as possible.

It takes a while. He is only learning and accidents happen (my fella had one last night for the first time in over a year).

Hooked

D8 Saint wrote: »

Like I said I'm here looking for some advice. I'm trying to do things a better way. Instead of being so critical, can you give me some suggestions? How did you train your puppy in this situation?

Thanks for the useful replies, I'm trying to do the right thing.

Keep the faith OP. There will be plenty of advice as well as those getting irate. Like you, I had no clue when we got doggy number one.

Got to get back to work... But one thing I would not change is... CRATE training!

Properly introduced. Get a puppy KONG. I'll update this reply later...

cocker5

D8 Saint wrote: »

Like I said I'm here looking for some advice. I'm trying to do things a better way. Instead of being so critical, can you give me some suggestions? How did you train your puppy in this situation?

Thanks for the useful replies, I'm trying to do the right thing.

well firstly without trying to sound like a smart ass, google training methods, buy yourself a good “first puppy” book, there is lots of information out there all your need to do is look.

You must know deep down locking him in like that is just plain cruel, stop it. Im not being over critical im actually shocked that someone would actually do it – I honestly am. The puppy is a baby just taken away from his mother and this is how he spends his first few nights away….

Get him a decent plastic bed with some blankets and get up every 3 hours for 3-4 weeks to let him out each night, pick a word i.e. “wee’s” or “toilet” and each time he goes outside say the word and praise him or give him a small treat, this will encourage him to go outside,
but it does mean you letting him out each, its hard but its work a lot quicker than puppy pads, newspapers etc.

Here is some information directly from the dogs trust website – please read it, it will help you make better decisions for your dog.

there are numerous information sheets, please download and read

http://www.dogstrust.ie/az/factsheetsanddownloads/default.aspx

Nody

Please look into socialisation asap as well; your time window for it is rapidly shrinking and that has life long implications if not done properly.

D8 Saint

Once more I appreciate the useful replies. But I want to clarify that the kennel he's in is very spacious and he's not covered in urine/poo each morning. He's been cared for really well but we're struggling with his sleeping arrangements and that's why I came on here - some replies here almost suggest he's being abused which is certainly not the case. We really mean well. We're going to look into the crate training, thanks.

cocker5

D8 Saint wrote: »

Once more I appreciate the useful replies. But I want to clarify that the kennel he's in is very spacious and he's not covered in urine/poo each morning. He's been cared for really well but we're struggling with his sleeping arrangements and that's why I came on here - some replies here almost suggest he's being abused which is certainly not the case. We really mean well. We're going to look into the crate training, thanks.

Locking him in anything at 11 weeks, large kennel or not is cruel... its a fact

My reply was useful....I attached a link from dogs trust that has lots of fact sheets on how to train, toilet train, socialising your dog and how to look after your dog, you should actually click on the link, it has lots of good useful information.

muddypaws

Having a spacious kennel or crate can actually make toilet training more difficult, as he has room to go to the toilet away from his bed, but still in that enclosed space. Read the link above about crate training. Either way, you have to get up and take him outside throughout the night, he is just not physically able to hold it in all night, take him outside, wait until he has gone, lots of fuss and a treat, and back in again. The breeder should also be able to give you advice.

Sorry but, this is the animal and pet forum, so yes, you will get animal lovers who consider it cruel to lock a small puppy into a kennel for the whole night on their own, especially after just being taken away from his mother and litter mates.

Out of interest, when he has climbed out of the kennel, has he dirtied in the house? Did you get the kennel so that you can put him outside in it when he is older?

D8 Saint

cocker5 wrote: »

Locking him in anything at 11 weeks, large kennel or not is cruel... its a fact

My reply was useful....I attached a link from dogs trust that has lots of fact sheets on how to train, toilet train, socialising your dog and how to look after your dog, you should actually click on the link, it has lots of good useful information.

I now acknowledge that and am doing my best to fix it.

Your link was useful, I never said different.

D8 Saint

muddypaws wrote: »

Having a spacious kennel or crate can actually make toilet training more difficult, as he has room to go to the toilet away from his bed, but still in that enclosed space. Read the link above about crate training. Either way, you have to get up and take him outside throughout the night, he is just not physically able to hold it in all night, take him outside, wait until he has gone, lots of fuss and a treat, and back in again. The breeder should also be able to give you advice.

Sorry but, this is the animal and pet forum, so yes, you will get animal lovers who consider it cruel to lock a small puppy into a kennel for the whole night on their own, especially after just being taken away from his mother and litter mates.

Out of interest, when he has climbed out of the kennel, has he dirtied in the house? Did you get the kennel so that you can put him outside in it when he is older?

Thanks for the tip, we're researching crate training. I can understand your second point too.

He did the first time but not last night. Yes because he'll be alone for periods when he's older.

cocker5

D8 Saint wrote: »

I now acknowledge that and am doing my best to fix it.

Your link was useful, I never said different.

you can fix it by getting him a proper dog bed, and getting up every 3 hours for a few weeks, letting him out, rewarding him for going outside, 3/4 weeks and he will be toilet trainied.

My sister recently got a golden cocker, used this method, worked after 3 weeks, the pup now pee's when she says the word toilet, hasn't gone in the house in nearly 7 weeks (touch wood), its tough but worth it.

Look into puppy socilation classes asap

Try crate training (no experience myself but have heard great reviews).

Get him some toys to keep him entertained i get everything from beds , to toys, to food to treats, here on :

http://www.zooplus.ie/

DBB

I've been away from the computer all day, had I seen the tone of some replies sooner I'd have intervened much earlier.
Cocker5, outraged you might be, but how do you expect anyone to heed any advice given to them on this forum after you berating them like you did the OP here?
Instead of educating the op, you have created hostility, and I've just seen to much of this here lately...
Bear in mind that people are looking for help when they post here. The fact that some may not understand the nuances of dog training should not be used to belittle them, rather it should be seized as an opportunity to help them, and to make life better for their dog as a result.
There's some great advice and help being given here otherwise. We all have to start somewhere.
Do not reply to this post on thread. If you'd like a discussion about it, please pm me.
Thanks,
DBB

Whispered

I'm not sure what the difference is between using a wire crate and using an indoor kennel is TBH. When crate training mine, we had a cover on the crate and they preferred it that way. They slept better at least. Can someone clarify why a kennel (inside) is worse than a covered crate?

As far as I know there has been a recent movement towards using a puppy pen rather than a crate. For us the crate worked very well, but I could afford the time to take it really slowly with the first guy and the second was so sick he slept for much of the day and really appreciated his space. If I got a new pup I'd have to do more research on which method is best. You might want to look at that too OP.

Another thing I recently learned is that while it's a good idea to have the pup go to the toilet before bed, it's also a good idea to give a tiny meal just before too so they have a full belly and are feeling dozy and content.

DBB

Whispered wrote: »

I'm not sure what the difference is between using a wire crate and using an indoor kennel is TBH. When crate training mine, we had a cover on the crate and they preferred it that way. They slept better at least. Can someone clarify why a kennel (inside) is worse than a covered crate?

I think a lot of dogs would panic in a kennel or a covered crate, unless they're gradually acclimatised to either over time. Obviously, it's not the same with all dogs, but sticking a new puppy into a kennel, or indeed a normal crate with or without a cover, without gradual acclimatisation, is a risky strategy and almost bound to cause a lot of anguish and noise from the pup.
Taking pup away from mother and siblings is traumatic for them no matter what way you look at it, and whilst the traditionalists would have you just ignore the pup and let it cry itself to sleep over several nights, I think many a behaviourist would agree that making this transition a lot gentler than the traditionalists would allow seriously reduces the risk of anxiety-related issues in the short- and longer-term. To that end, I'm all for crating new pups in the bedroom, then as they settle, moving them gradually to sleep on their own in another part of the house. Everyone, pup and human, gets better sleep too!

As far as I know there has been a recent movement towards using a puppy pen rather than a crate.

I've been using puppy pens in preference to crates for years! They're not as claustrophobic but almost the same end is met... controlling where the pup toilets and minimising the chances of them toileting in unwanted places. Plus, I can't help but feel that they're less open to abuse, even inadvertent abuse... and owners with a *thing* against crating their pup tend to be much more open to the idea of a playpen

Another thing I recently learned is that while it's a good idea to have the pup go to the toilet before bed, it's also a good idea to give a tiny meal just before too so they have a full belly and are feeling dozy and content.

Having fostered a LOT of pups over the years, not feeding them just before bedtime is a major mistake!
Empty bladder+full tummy = more sleep

Whispered

DBB wrote: »

I think a lot of dogs would panic in a kennel or a covered crate, unless they're gradually acclimatised to either over time. Obviously, it's not the same with all dogs, but sticking a new puppy into a kennel, or indeed a normal crate with or without a cover, without gradual acclimatisation, is a risky strategy and almost bound to cause a lot of anguish and noise from the pup.

Oh god I didn't mean just putting them in there - sorry if it sounded like that - I mean if the pup is "kennel" trained in the same way as crate trained. Is there a problem with using an indoor kennel instead? I'm asking because the idea of using a kennel seemed to really upset some people while in the same post they were suggesting crate training.

I did it myself in my own post; I started with "get a crate" but could the OP use the current kennel and go back to crate training basics?

With Harley and his brother and sister we went very slowly and it took a while, I think it helped that they slept in a pile though and the crate was the centre of their world during the day, games, feeds etc were all done in the crate, like a little base camp for the three terrors. He still loves it.

Phoe on the other hand had to adjust very quickly to being crated as he was so sick and just didn't have the energy to be out and about. Because he had no energy though he loved it from the start, anywhere with a cushion was good enough for him. He still regularly rests in it during the day.

In saying that I do like the idea of a puppy pen. I would look into it if/when I get another dog, it just so happened that at the time I got each of them I had the crates and it suited us.

muddypaws

Whispered wrote: »

Oh god I didn't mean just putting them in there - sorry if it sounded like that - I mean if the pup is "kennel" trained in the same way as crate trained. Is there a problem with using an indoor kennel instead? I'm asking because the idea of using a kennel seemed to really upset some people while in the same post they were suggesting crate training.

From my perspective, I guess it was the thought of it being dark and closed in, whereas with a crate, the pup could see out of it, and feel in semi-familiar surroundings. I've never managed to completely cover a crate, there's always been a bit left at the bottom that the dog can see out of if they really want to

paddydriver

Bite the bullet and get up during the night to bring them out. We had a 12 week old lab house trained in less than 2 weeks by doing this. Just like raising kids..:eek:

Read all sorts about their bladders not being able to hold for long etc. but the reality was that once they knew where they were meant to wee they were well able to hold for about 6 hours within a few weeks.

Bring them out last thing at night, get up twice during night and then out first thing in the morning. Soon you'll be down to once a night and then they'll be sleeping in the whole night with few accidents.

lulu1

OP i would suggest putting your puppy in the utility room or somewhere that he cant do much damage if he gets board. Put his bed and a few toys in aswell and as others have suggested get up a few times during the night and let him out it really wont take long.

DBB

muddypaws wrote: »

From my perspective, I guess it was the thought of it being dark and closed in, whereas with a crate, the pup could see out of it, and feel in semi-familiar surroundings. I've never managed to completely cover a crate, there's always been a bit left at the bottom that the dog can see out of if they really want to

@ Whispered,
Muddypaws' post is the main reservation I'd have for using indoor kennels, or indeed fully covered crates... she just said it better than I
I know you know what I meant too, I was more posting for the OP and others who are looking into crate training

DBB

Folks,
This thread is locked at OP's request.
Thanks,
DBB