Price for SWA

creedp

Hi Im looking to put in a 4x1.5 or 4x2.5 cable from the garage to the front gate - not sure of the distance but would be aprox 50m - before some driveway/landscaping work is done.

I understand the 3x1.5 would be sufficient for the gate but using 4x1.5 would allow a plug be installed at gate to run Christmas lights/other light usage. What would this cable cost per m and would it be worth the additional cost to put in the 4x1.5? I already will have a swa cable installed for lights which is linked to a light switch at the front door.

Thanks

.G.

Ring up a few electrical wholesalers and ask them. Some charge more than other's.

brightspark

creedp wrote: »

Hi Im looking to put in a 4x1.5 or 4x2.5 cable from the garage to the front gate - not sure of the distance but would be aprox 50m - before some driveway/landscaping work is done.

I understand the 3x1.5 would be sufficient for the gate but using 4x1.5 would allow a plug be installed at gate to run Christmas lights/other light usage. What would this cable cost per m and would it be worth the additional cost to put in the 4x1.5? I already will have a swa cable installed for lights which is linked to a light switch at the front door.

Thanks

Who told you that 4x1.5 would be suitable for a "plug" (I take it you mean a socket, but that's not my concern)

creedp

superg wrote: »

Ring up a few electrical wholesalers and ask them. Some charge more than other's.

OK will do .. any comment how about whether 4x1.5 cable would be suitable to run a socket (thanks bright spark!) as well as gate. Run is 60 meters from gate to fuse board in garage.

By the way I was advised it would be OK by a gate automation expert as long at socket only used for light electrical loads. An alternative option advised was to use existing sma 3x1.5 cable which is wired to light switch inside front door. The lights could be left on the cable but put on pir as could no longer be operated using switch.

.G.

That's the problem though, if a socket is around people tend to plug stuff into them with no regard to what the cable it's fed with is capable of supplying . In your case it probably would only be suitable for a small lighting load but it's not permissible to use 1.5sq for sockets and you also have to consider volt drop on a 60m run. If you want a socket I'd size up.

creedp

superg wrote: »

That's the problem though, if a socket is around people tend to plug stuff into them with no regard to what the cable it's fed with is capable of supplying . In your case it probably would only be suitable for a small lighting load but it's not permissible to use 1.5sq for sockets and you also have to consider volt drop on a 60m run. If you want a socket I'd size up.

OK thanks. So if I went for 4x2.5mm i would be able to run gates and install a socket to use for light loads - question is what use could be made from the socket other than for Christmas lights? Maybe i would be better off not installing it and avoid the risk of someone plugging in something that would cause damage.

Any comment on using the existing 3x1.5mm cable to run gates and a couple of external lights - I understand cable is not run directly from fuse board but is part of the house light circuit.

.G.

To understand exactly what cable should be used you'd need to know the exact loading required at the end of it along with other factors too. Presumably the gate automation fella is an electrician and has calculated what you need. Although him suggesting a socket will be fine would call that into question.

wildefalcon

If the socket is fused to 3 amps then the 1.5 may be ok, but it's a heck of a drop over 60m - esp on a 220 v supply.

creedp

wildefalcon wrote: »

If the socket is fused to 3 amps then the 1.5 may be ok, but it's a heck of a drop over 60m - esp on a 220 v supply.

Ok I'll price the difference between 1.5 and 2.5mm and if not substantial will go with 2.5mm. At least then have the option of installing a socket and maybe avoid the need for cables runnig across drive at Christmas. Thanks

Paul_Mc1988

wildefalcon wrote: »

If the socket is fused to 3 amps then the 1.5 may be ok, but it's a heck of a drop over 60m - esp on a 220 v supply.

Volt Drop=((29*3*60))/1000=5.22 Volts.
The volt drop would be acceptable but i would still recommend against using 1.5mm^2. 2.5mm^2 should be used as at some stage due to the ease of plugging into the socket in the garden for tools etc something with a decent load will be plugged into it (This is mere speculation but from experience i have seen it happen too often)

Sir Arthur Daley

There is such little difference in price between the 2 i would go for 2.5 sq cable.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

There is such little difference in price between the 2 i would go for 2.5 sq cable.

On a related point I want to run swa across the drive for lights before I surface it. What depth should I have the swa at? Would running the swa through a duct mean I could keep it shallower? Finally, for now! what is the most appropriate ducting to use which obviously won't crush under the weight of the tarmacing process or heavy traffic in the future?

larchill

creedp wrote: »

On a related point I want to run swa across the drive for lights before I surface it. What depth should I have the swa at? Would running the swa through a duct mean I could keep it shallower? Finally, for now! what is the most appropriate ducting to use which obviously won't crush under the weight of the tarmacing process or heavy traffic in the future?

@ home years ago we put everything 18" (approx ½mtr) down. When your doing driveways etc that's the time to do all these things - get them deep enough & avoid fellas with shovels etc!

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

On a related point I want to run swa across the drive for lights before I surface it. What depth should I have the swa at? Would running the swa through a duct mean I could keep it shallower? Finally, for now! what is the most appropriate ducting to use which obviously won't crush under the weight of the tarmacing process or heavy traffic in the future?

I would bury it 600mm deep and warning tape at 300mm. Use the 2 inch red esb ducting, can buy it off the roll in some builders merchants or can buy by the length and various bends, joiners etc.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I would bury it 600mm deep and warning tape at 300mm. Use the 2 inch red esb ducting, can buy it off the roll in some builders merchants or can buy by the length and various bends, joiners etc.

Thanks for that ... didn't realise it would have to be so deep. At my gate there is a duct which is only about 150mm below surface but I suppose you would expect to find it there so would be careful if ever excavating in future. However, I have a swa cable going from front and back of house house into the garden which is at most 200mm under the surface, less in places! These were installed by builder/electrican.

brightspark

The current regulations has a table for minimum depths according to location and method of installation. (But if there is a high risk of damage etc, you need either additional measure or go even lower)

Which best describes you location?

Agricultural
Industrial or Commercial
Domestic gardens, paths, drives.
Urban pathways
Vehicular traffic bearing areas
Grass margins (roadside) and footpaths.

Method of installation?

SWA or NYCY cable laid directly in the soil

Non armoured cable in a suitable pipe in the soil

SWA or NYCY in a pipe in the soil.




Acceptable types of pipe are

High Density polythene pipe to IS 135, Class B. Coloured Red

PVC pipes having a high impact resistance. Coloured Red and in accordance with I.S. EN 50086-2-4 (Thin wall PVC pipe is not acceptable).

Spigot red concrete pipes.




As Sir Arthur Daley has already said, suitable indication should be provided at about 300mm below the completed surface.


Not specifically stated in the Regs but you should dig even deeper and provide a layer of sand below the cable, as soil would contain sharp stones which will press into the cable from underneath.


I still don't understand how you can supply two seperate circuits with just 4 cores?
Gate using three cores live, neutral, earth.
Socket using live and ???

creedp

brightspark wrote: »

The current regulations has a table for minimum depths according to location and method of installation. (But if there is a high risk of damage etc, you need either additional measure or go even lower)

Which best describes you location?

Agricultural
Industrial or Commercial
Domestic gardens, paths, drives.
Urban pathways
Vehicular traffic bearing areas
Grass margins (roadside) and footpaths.

Method of installation?

SWA or NYCY cable laid directly in the soil

Non armoured cable in a suitable pipe in the soil

SWA or NYCY in a pipe in the soil.




Acceptable types of pipe are

High Density polythene pipe to IS 135, Class B. Coloured Red

PVC pipes having a high impact resistance. Coloured Red and in accordance with I.S. EN 50086-2-4 (Thin wall PVC pipe is not acceptable).

Spigot red concrete pipes.




As Sir Arthur Daley has already said, suitable indication should be provided at about 300mm below the completed surface.


Not specifically stated in the Regs but you should dig even deeper and provide a layer of sand below the cable, as soil would contain sharp stones which will press into the cable from underneath.


I still don't understand how you can supply two seperate circuits with just 4 cores?
Gate using three cores live, neutral, earth.
Socket using live and ???

Setting is domestic gardens, paths drives - I want to run a swa - 2.5mm (5 core!! - I want to install a socket at the gate control box) from garage to gate (approx 60m) which I was considering running it along the inside the driveway kerb as I would know exactly where is is located. This cable will cross under the driveway at the gates. The driveway lad did some levelling work and buried (at 150mm depth) what looks like a white 50mm plumbing waste pipe across the drive at the gates to carry the swa and any communication cables. Of course the pipe is 150mm short on each side the drive - this was 'sorted' by sticking a 25mm black plastic pipe into each end to extend under kerbs. The gate man was happy with this set up.

I am proposing to dig up that pipe and install an ESB grade 50mm duct across the full width of the drive to carry the SWA and other cables - minimum depth for this pipe - given that I will know exactly where it is. Also what should be the minimum depth of the swa running along inside the kerb which borderd drive/garden?

I am also proposing to install a 2nd ESB grade pipe across the drive to allow an swa 1.5mm (3core) to be run across the drive to provide power for lights. There is an existing swa cable on one side which is linked to a light switch inside front door and I plan to join these 2 cables together and install lights on both sides of the drive which will be located in flower beds. These light fittings will be located close to the kerb and the end of the ducting on each side.

brightspark

Your earlier post mentioned heavy traffic in the future?

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

Thanks for that ... didn't realise it would have to be so deep. At my gate there is a duct which is only about 150mm below surface but I suppose you would expect to find it there so would be careful if ever excavating in future. However, I have a swa cable going from front and back of house house into the garden which is at most 200mm under the surface, less in places! These were installed by builder/electrican.

200mm or less is unacceptable and hazardous, hire in a machine and do the cable installation properly and you will never have an issue with it in future.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

200mm or less is unacceptable and hazardous, hire in a machine and do the cable installation properly and you will never have an issue with it in future.

Unfortunately some of that cable is already paved over ....

creedp

brightspark wrote: »

Your earlier post mentioned heavy traffic in the future?

I meant potential traffic such as the machines laying the tramac and delivery trucks etc. It is a dometic house driveway so nothing more than that should be using it.

brightspark

The white plumbing pipe isn't adequate.

Your SWA along the drive would be OK at 450mm, indication tape at approx half way.

Across your driveway (I'm guessing the odd oil tanker etc will be using it) 750mm, tape at 300mm below the finished surface.

http://www.etci.ie/docs/stds&rules.pdf

Page 18, Table 52B is as current regs. (Other parts of that document may not be as it dates from 2005)

Is your "gateman" a registered electrical contractor?

Also especially given the length of the run ensure an earth loop impedance test is carried out.

creedp

brightspark wrote: »

The white plumbing pipe isn't adequate.

Your SWA along the drive would be OK at 450mm, indication tape at approx half way.

Across your driveway (I'm guessing the odd oil tanker etc will be using it) 750mm, tape at 300mm below the finished surface.

http://www.etci.ie/docs/stds&rules.pdf

Page 18, Table 52B is as current regs. (Other parts of that document may not be as it dates from 2005)

Is your "gateman" a registered electrical contractor?

Also especially given the length of the run ensure an earth loop impedance test is carried out.

Wow 750mm or 30" in old money .. how can experienced people then think it's sufficient to have a piece of plumbing pipe at 150mm as a duct for the swa? By the way if running the swa through a esb grade duct could that figure be reduced?

I don't know if he's a registered electrician or not but he's quoting to install electrical connections. I was dubous about plumbling pipe withstanding the weight required but he said in his experience of 25 years he has never seen one of those pipes collapse. I'd be in a right fix if I had that duct in and it collapsed during the laying of the tarmac wtih no means to get the wiring across the drive afterwards not to mention the fact that the wiring would be too shallow in any case.

I'll check out about carrying out an earth loop impedence test!

Sir Arthur Daley

For Vehicular traffic-bearing areas and to use swa alone its 750mm and to use it in HD polythene in the soil in pipe its still 750mm. No incentive whatsoever to use swa in pipe imo here. Disagree with their guides on that one.

brightspark

It's not a guide, it's in the regulations.

Sir Arthur Daley

Misuse of a word there, disagree with their regulation.

frankmul

Would this not come under "domestic garden, paths and drives"?

creedp

frankmul wrote: »

Would this not come under "domestic garden, paths and drives"?

A little bit confusing - 'domestic garden, paths and drives' is 250mm in duct while 'vehicular traffic bearing areas' 750mm. Given that driveway and gate lads currently have a white plastic duct at 150mm I think that using the electricity grade duct at 250mm would be a sigbificant improvement.

As a matter of interest S.A.D. why would you think that running swa in appropriate grade ducting doesn't offer any greater protection? is is because it still doesn't provide sufficient clearance in case someone in future was digging in that area or because the weight of traffic would damage the cable in the duct at 250mm?

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

As a matter of interest S.A.D. why would you think that running swa in appropriate grade ducting doesn't offer any greater protection? is is because it still doesn't provide sufficient clearance in case someone in future was digging in that area or because the weight of traffic would damage the cable in the duct at 250mm?

I feel if one uses swa in ducting in Vehicular traffic-bearing areas the depth could be reduced to 600mm.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I feel if one uses swa in ducting in Vehicular traffic-bearing areas the depth could be reduced to 600mm.

OK thanks. Like everything in this country it seems regulations are ignored by many. I must tackle my juys again and ask them why they arent complying with regulations? Or maybe Im unlucky in that many of the juys I get seems to have a health disregard for the rules in their respective fields. I always feel that I need to become an expert in the field before I hire an expert so I can advise them what it is they are obliged to do!

As a matter of interest what is the difference between 'vehicular traffic-bearing area' and 'domestic garden, paths and drives'

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

As a matter of interest what is the difference between 'vehicular traffic-bearing area' and 'domestic garden, paths and drives'

Vehicular traffic bearing area would be a yard or a drive way then again isnt the drives in the domestic garden, paths and drives also a drive way?

brightspark

IMHO a domestic driveway would be just supporting a family car, not delivery trucks etc.

frankmul

Are you talking about the oil been delivered or a courier dropping off things. I would consider these to be part of a normal traffic for a domestic drive. If a business was been run from the premises with multiple deliveries per day, I would go the 750mm. A large vehicle once a week, I would consider that a drive.

2011

frankmul wrote: »

Are you talking about the oil been delivered or a courier dropping off things. I would consider these to be part of a normal traffic for a domestic drive. If a business was been run from the premises with multiple deliveries per day, I would go the 750mm. A large vehicle once a week, I would consider that a drive.

If you have a digger available it would be no harm to go a little deeper.
In reality SWA cables are frequently direct buried without any issues.

brightspark

The OP is hopefully using a REC as this installation should be considered to be controlled works.

creedp

brightspark wrote: »

The OP is hopefully using a REC as this installation should be considered to be controlled works.

I'm not using a REC directly. I am getting gates automated and have selected what seems to a reputable outfit to carry out the works. He's certainly not cheap and has been installing automated gate systems for over 25 years. Presumably as installing automated gates means working with electricity he should know his obligations in this area and use a suitably qualified electrician.

This guy inspected the white plastic pipe which will be a maximum of 150mm under the surface and gave it the OK. Its me that is not happy with it because it seems like a plastic plumbing waste pipe and therefore not very strong and it does not go full way across the drive being about 150mm short on each side. I am planning to dig up this pipe and lay proper 50mm electricity ducting across ths drive to take the sma to control box and electricity feed back to each motor and poly poly cables.

While it looks like I should be considering a min depth of 250mm for this duct it is also argued I should go deeper to 600mm of 750mm which is a hell of alot deeper than I planned or considered necessary by both electrian and driveway person. Nothing is easy in life it seems!!

Tuco88

I take it there is a poly/poly to be installed also?

creedp

Tuco88 wrote: »

I take it there is a poly/poly to be installed also?

The poly poly was installed in a separate duct by the builder from the gate to the telecom box on the house wall. Only problem there seems to be that the cat 5 from the box into the house can't be located .. its not in the attic and its possible it was routed up the cavity across the first floor floor hollow core and down under the stairs to where the telephone was to be located. If thst is the case the cable can't be found and could actually under the plaster! One of the many legacy issues related to my rather tempestous build experience. Of course in reality the cable should have been routed into attic where all the internal cat5s are routed ... but there you are .. I certainly dropped the ball on that one!!