Cityjet Replacing Avro RJ85s

man98

That's right, yesterday it was announced Cityjet are retiring their older RJ85s in favour of CS100s, E-190s or Sukhoi SJ100s, purchased by Intro, their new parent company. While it is a pity to see these lovely unique aircraft go, it is undoubtedly an aim to make WX profitable again. So, what are your views? Which and how many aircraft will they go for? Are the F-50s next?
IMHO they'll choose about 25 E-190s as these are already cleared for LCY services, and if F-50s will face the axe it could be ERJ-145s, Q300s or ATR 42-500/-600s. BMI Regional have proven ERJs can make money, but fuel consumption is much higher, as Fairchild Dornier 328s could be replaced with ERJ-135s or Q200s unless there's runway issues in Dundee.
I'm probably overthinking this, but anything is possible and the poor Fokkers are aging.
Source: http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/intro-aviation-final-talks-replace-cityjet-s-avro-rj85-fleet?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+AtwDailyNews+(ATW+Daily+News)

This has been known for the last few months.

I think they will opt for the CSeries aircraft due to its power and range.

It doesn't take much or long to get type rated into LCY if manufacturers are interested.

b757

From what I have been reading the company will split into two. VLM Airways will be coming back and that is where the F50's will be heading, and then the Cityjet part will have the fleet replacement. The fleet is in dire need of replacing, the Avro's are fuel guzzlers and the recent incidents will not help the company at all.

All in all, it will be sad to see the Avro's go. But for Cityjet to move forward it is necessary to replace them with more efficient aircraft. My vote would be for the CSeries, mainly because the order will boost not just Cityjet but also Bombardier too. The extra seats over the Embraer and Sukhoi will help increase passenger numbers and possibly spread the cost over the passengers reducing fares. Plus the range will give Cityjet the option of flying to new destinations, increasing their market for profit.

man98

VLM reborn? I presume sold on to another company then? With Flybe now flying to many of their destinations, Cityjet is in need of new aircraft. Do you know what's happening with the Do 328s? I would love to fly with Cityjet some time, they sound nicer than EI or FR!

b757

man98 wrote: »

VLM reborn? I presume sold on to another company then? With Flybe now flying to many of their destinations, Cityjet is in need of new aircraft. Do you know what's happening with the Do 328s? I would love to fly with Cityjet some time, they sound nicer than EI or FR!

Yeah.

http://www.independent.ie/business/cityjet-cuts-losses-and-closes-london-office-amid-revamp-30437337.html
VLM, which CityJet acquired in 2007, will focus on providing wet lease services, where its aircraft and crew are rented out to other carriers, and on charter flights.

"They will work with each other, but also be independent," he said.

VLM will be responsible for marketing its own capacity. CityJet will use it as a capacity supplier on an arm's length basis when required. VLM aircraft have begun to be painted in a new livery.

L1011

Q300s are off the market - until the Tecnam appears l, ATR have >70 to themselves and even then it's no -42 rival

The 328s belong to Loganair and I suspect will long term be replaced with retired Saabs from the US.

man98

MYOB wrote: »

Q300s are off the market - until the Tecnam appears l, ATR have >70 to themselves and even then it's no -42 rival

The 328s belong to Loganair and I suspect will long term be replaced with retired Saabs from the US.

I believe Q300s stopped production in 2009, but that means there's still a few young ones doing the rounds. As I mentioned above, ERJs (and CRJs) do compete with ATR 42s, as well as Casa 235s to a certain extent. I doubt Loganair will acquire many more Saab's, we all know their days I'm the skies are nearing an end, with little more 35 seat props on the market, I don't know what will happen. It's a pity Q200s aren't in production, although Embraer 120s are available on one off orders.

I'm glad to see VLM are breaking away, a bit like Stobart Air. I do hope the F-50s stay on for a long time. On further reading about the RJ85 replacement, I'll put my money on CS100s as E190s appear to be out of the running. SJ100s don't really look cut out for LCY anyway but I see it as a 'Who can get an operating certificate for LCY first' race.

Stovepipe

At one stage, Cityjet was earning 10% of AF's profit with 5% of it's fleet. The French unions did not like it one bit and AF got quite a bit sniffy that a small Irish regional was getting above itself and working it's aircraft and crews hard and getting results......the RJs are obsolete and BAe don't give a damn about them and there's little or no demand for them. I'd say Bombardiers first, with E190s as a second choice.

suasdaguna2

Agree with stovepipe. Next stop for RJs is the bone yard. Sad I know, they have given sterling service but there's a shelf life for everything .

man98

Stovepipe wrote: »

At one stage, Cityjet was earning 10% of AF's profit with 5% of it's fleet. The French unions did not like it one bit and AF got quite a bit sniffy that a small Irish regional was getting above itself and working it's aircraft and crews hard and getting results......the RJs are obsolete and BAe don't give a damn about them and there's little or no demand for them. I'd say Bombardiers first, with E190s as a second choice.

From what I've read, SJ100s are well in the running, but neither plane has a European operator. I think the SJ100 may have problems landing packed in wet conditions in London. Of course, the French don't like the aviation industry working hard, they'll strike!
Anyway, here's a better link: http://airinsight.com/2014/08/04/intro-aviation-cityjet/#.U-U5L_ldUm4

Matthew Gleeson

b757 wrote: »

From what I have been reading the company will split into two. VLM Airways will be coming back and that is where the F50's will be heading, and then the Cityjet part will have the fleet replacement. The fleet is in dire need of replacing, the Avro's are fuel guzzlers and the recent incidents will not help the company at all.

All in all, it will be sad to see the Avro's go. But for Cityjet to move forward it is necessary to replace them with more efficient aircraft. My vote would be for the CSeries, mainly because the order will boost not just Cityjet but also Bombardier too. The extra seats over the Embraer and Sukhoi will help increase passenger numbers and possibly spread the cost over the passengers reducing fares. Plus the range will give Cityjet the option of flying to new destinations, increasing their market for profit.

It's definitely needed to remain competitive especially with BA cityflyer heading to Dublin now. Wish them all the best!

Matthew Gleeson

man98 wrote: »

From what I've read, SJ100s are well in the running, but neither plane has a European operator. I think the SJ100 may have problems landing packed in wet conditions in London. Of course, the French don't like the aviation industry working hard, they'll strike!
Anyway, here's a better link: http://airinsight.com/2014/08/04/intro-aviation-cityjet/#.U-U5L_ldUm4

Maintenance could also be trickier with the SJ. I really hope they get the Cseries

man98

Matthew Gleeson wrote: »

Maintenance could also be trickier with the SJ. I really hope they get the Cseries

The CSeries fits 110 and it seems more practical, according to Wiki the SSJ launch customers returned the aircraft within 4 months! The CS100 would fit in well with a little plan I have too...

smurfjed

Personally i would stay away from the SJ due to the lack of a proven aircraft or manufacturer track history, so that leaves the C-series and the E190. The last time that i dealt with Bombardier, they were extremely optimistic about what their -700/900 could do, but they couldn't show the actual figures, so i will be extremely interested to see how the aircraft performs once it enters service.

So I'm not curious, for those recommending the C-series, why?

Tenger

Matthew Gleeson wrote: »

Maintenance could also be trickier with the SJ. I really hope they get the Cseries

I think that is really, the SuperJet is still new and the manufacturer hasn't got a proven track record. Now is not the time for risks.

While Bombardier have a good record the aircraft itself is new. (personally I would like to see it but that just my opinion based on cosmetics)

Embraer seems like the most proven option with the E190/195 in use all over the world with many airlines. E190's are currently being upgraded at present. (You can see the canted winglets on the upgraded version)
There is also the long term path with the E2 series in development.

Matthew Gleeson

smurfjed wrote: »

Personally i would stay away from the SJ due to the lack of a proven aircraft or manufacturer track history, so that leaves the C-series and the E190. The last time that i dealt with Bombardier, they were extremely optimistic about what their -700/900 could do, but they couldn't show the actual figures, so i will be extremely interested to see how the aircraft performs once it enters service.

So I'm not curious, for those recommending the C-series, why?

E190 is proven at LCY as well which would make it perhaps more desirable plus maybe more order flexibility, also a more well established maintenance program on its frame and engines. Power by hour and all that good stuff. Personally I'd like to see the Cseries purely as an Avgeek, be cool to see at DUB.

Stovepipe

Given the debacle of the Q400's early service life, I'd take anything said from Bombardier with a pinch of salt. Like Embraer, they went from building small, tough regional-sized aircraft to building sophisticated hub-feeders and the Q400 bit them on the ass, yet Embraer seem to have got it right (although I thought the -135 was too small and too costly to work). Also, there's more to Cityjet than just LCY.

regards
Stovepipe

Matthew Gleeson

Stovepipe wrote: »

Given the debacle of the Q400's early service life, I'd take anything said from Bombardier with a pinch of salt. Like Embraer, they went from building small, tough regional-sized aircraft to building sophisticated hub-feeders and the Q400 bit them on the ass, yet Embraer seem to have got it right (although I thought the -135 was too small and too costly to work). Also, there's more to Cityjet than just LCY.

regards
Stovepipe

A very good point. Maybe they can grow a bit more in France. I've heard HOP is basically another 'High Ordinary Price' so if cityjet could get in there maybe an opportunity but I've no clue :pac:

smurfjed

http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.com/en/cseries/Flexibility/Range-Capabilities.html

Looking at the performance capabilities from London City, the aircraft loses about 1200 NM's of range, this is incredibly penalising and it doesn't state if they are including ANY takeoff obstacles, so it could be worse.

man98

smurfjed wrote: »

Personally i would stay away from the SJ due to the lack of a proven aircraft or manufacturer track history, so that leaves the C-series and the E190. The last time that i dealt with Bombardier, they were extremely optimistic about what their -700/900 could do, but they couldn't show the actual figures, so i will be extremely interested to see how the aircraft performs once it enters service.

So I'm not curious, for those recommending the C-series, why?

The CSeries is new, yes. But I've noticed efficiency is great, extra seats, STOL capabilties and it feels right for the airline. Like it or not, Russian aircraft still don't have a great reputation for some reason in the western world. The SSJ has already crashed twice (Yes, not the manufacturer's fault I presume), and the E190 seems to be out of the running according to an interview with someone in Cityjet. 1200 nautical miles is still more than the Avro. I don't know which E190 they'd use, but I willl presume Cityjet will be cautious towards French expansion, maybe focusing more on Brussels or Rotterdam? Air France - KLM territory is probably a no-go area for now. Might start flying to Frankfurt or Cologne either, but DUB is already saturated with cheap German flights. I have little interest as an avgeek, as Wexford is nowhere near a Cityjet airport, unless I get my way.

smurfjed

it feels right for the airline

Interesting criteria to use for an aircraft purchase I don't know why they have ruled out the E190, could this be a marketing ploy to encourage Embraer to offer excellent terms?

man98

smurfjed wrote: »

Interesting criteria to use for an aircraft purchase I don't know why they have ruled out the E190, could this be a marketing ploy to encourage Embraer to offer excellent terms?

While that may be the case, I don't think Intra are too MOL-ish when it comes to aircraft price. It's probably because Lufthansa (Swiss European), Malmo Aviation, Air Baltic and Privatair (which seems to be a glorified Swiss European). None of these will be flying into London City, or Britain very often and Swiss European are the only ones with substantial orders (30 CS100s). And then, the SSJ has no airline flying it in Europe. They probably want a different/ unique plane. And yes, the CS100 seems classy and pleasant, like Cityjet.

arubex

There have been a few VLM9xxx callsigns in the past few weeks and they have recently placed an aircraft with Vizion in the Netherlands, so it looks like they're finding business on their own which is promising.

We even had a charter into Belfast! F50s are lovely and I hope they never retire...