Teacher Pension Calculator

newfrontier

Found this link online http://www.cspensions.gov.ie and it is for calculating your pension if you are in the civil service, is this applicable to us teachers and has anyone used it to calculate their pension entitlements? Also allows you to purchase AVCs to bring up your pension to a decent standard? Is it actually worth paying money in now for a higher benefit in the future? (If you had any money would you do it?)

TheDriver

It doesn't take into account the 55/35 rule but is a good indicator all the same

evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

It doesn't take into account the 55/35 rule but is a good indicator all the same

whats the 55/35 rule?

...briefly, as I bet its probably more complicated than its supposed to be knowing the dept

rainbowtrout

Retire at 55 with 35 years completed. That's 33 years teaching plus 2 years allowed for professional qualifications.

I dunno does it apply to post 2004 teachers.

TheDriver

Doesn't apply to post 04 employees, only pre 04.

Redo22

What are the terms for post 2004 teachers but before 2011 changes?

rainbowtrout

Redo22 wrote: »

What are the terms for post 2004 teachers but before 2011 changes?

Work until 65 I think.

TheDriver

I think they can go at 60 but need to read into it. Everyone can have an actuarial adjusted pension at certain age ranges....

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

I think they can go at 60 but need to read into it. Everyone can have an actuarial adjusted pension at certain age ranges....

The cost neutral early retirement thing?

TheDriver

That's the one i think. It can be taken at 50 or over.....

spurious

TheDriver wrote: »

That's the one i think. It can be taken at 50 or over.....

Yes it can. I went after 27 point something reckonable years.
I have a very small pension, but am allowed work, which is a big plus as I don't intend to sit around doing nothing. I'm also a long way off paying tax at the moment.
I don't regret it in the slightest, even if money is a bit tight.

TheDriver

Its amazing how we have presumptions about each others ages!! I am still recovering from my 30th!

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

Its amazing how we have presumptions about each others ages!! I am still recovering from my 30th!

:-D 30! I made the assumption that you were older than me cos you were DP!

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

:-D 30! I made the assumption that you were older than me cos you were DP!

Think he means he's still recovering from his 30th year as DP....wakka wakka (although he probably won't get the wakka wakka thing if he is only 30...).

Just wondering does pension count full years only, so basically is it pro rata..e.g. 2years of 11hrs = 1 year service for pension?..

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Think he means he's still recovering from his 30th year as DP....wakka wakka (although he probably won't get the wakka wakka thing if he is only 30...).

Just wondering does pension count full years only, so basically is it pro rata..e.g. 2years of 11hrs = 1 year service for pension?..

Brain is on holidays until August 25th!!!


I think 11 hours only counts as half a year. I remember one of the teachers I work with went on job share for two years and her saying something about it each of the years only counting for half a year, so she was going to look into buying back a year, or an extra year on her AVC down the line.

solerina

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Retire at 55 with 35 years completed. That's 33 years teaching plus 2 years allowed for professional qualifications.

I dunno does it apply to post 2004 teachers.

I like the sound of that....didn't know it existed !!

rainbowtrout

solerina wrote: »

I like the sound of that....didn't know it existed !!

Ya you would obviously be going on a smaller pension 35/40 * 1/80 and same deal on lump sum but a lot in my staff room feel it would be worth it in terms of free time maybe just working part time in a less stressful job if money was needed.

TheDriver

Its great and you can go after 33 years as it counts 2 college years. However you get 33/40 of half your final salary as pension so about 23k maybe? Not bad if u have no mortgage or kids in college

2011abc

They REALLY screw you if you go early .Based on some pretty quick casual calculations for me Id get 28k at around 60/max contributions dropping around two to three grand per year if I left early until by the time you were 50 youd be not much better off than standard non contributory OAP(10k).(Would a Class D PRSI person even get this !?Scarey to think that there are thousands of teachers , myself included, with a couple of decades of service under their belts , WHO WOULD GET NO DOLE if unemployed in the morning!) (Interesting info from Spurious that youre allowed work)

Of course all this is for someone twenty years into their careers .For the poor unfortunates only starting out ...well...best of luck.(Sincerely)

And lest I sound smug the government may decide on a whim now apparently to raise the pension 'contribution' .Race to the bottom !Do you remember when we used to feel sorry for people who retired ?!Oh man !

2011abc

TheDriver wrote: »

23k maybe? Not bad if u have no mortgage or kids in college

Big IF for most folks around the age that would want to avail of it alas.

rainbowtrout

2011abc wrote: »

They REALLY screw you if you go early .Based on some pretty quick casual calculations for me Id get 28k at around 60/max contributions dropping around two to three grand per year if I left early until by the time you were 50 youd be not much better off than standard non contributory OAP(10k).(Would a Class D PRSI person even get this !?Scarey to think that there are thousands of teachers , myself included, with a couple of decades of service under their belts , WHO WOULD GET NO DOLE if unemployed in the morning!) (Interesting info from Spurious that youre allowed work)

Of course all this is for someone twenty years into their careers .For the poor unfortunates only starting out ...well...best of luck.(Sincerely)

And lest I sound smug the government may decide on a whim now apparently to raise the pension 'contribution' .Race to the bottom !Do you remember when we used to feel sorry for people who retired ?!Oh man !

What do you mean by they really screw you? You work less years, you make less contributions, you get a smaller pension.

Class D pay lower PRSI contributions than Class A hence not being eligible for social welfare, probably stemming from the fact that public sector jobs were traditionally permanent and people don't get fired or made redundant. So no need for dole payment.

Class D PRSI teachers are pre 1995. I'd find it hard to believe at this stage that there were any teachers working for 20+ years and not permanent.

solerina

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya you would obviously be going on a smaller pension 35/40 * 1/80 and same deal on lump sum but a lot in my staff room feel it would be worth it in terms of free time maybe just working part time in a less stressful job if money was needed.

I def think it would be worth it, our conditions have disimproved so much in the last 5 years I dread to think what might happen in the next 10-20. I am paying AVCs ( I know some think that's a bad idea, but its my choice to keep paying, at the moment anyway) so I can retire at 58...so hopefully I wont be too badly off as I will still have mortgage repayments to make (unless the lump sum could help with that).

2011abc

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What do you mean by they really screw you? You work less years, you make less contributions, you get a smaller pension.

Class D pay lower PRSI contributions than Class A hence not being eligible for social welfare, probably stemming from the fact that public sector jobs were traditionally permanent and people don't get fired or made redundant. So no need for dole payment.

Class D PRSI teachers are pre 1995. I'd find it hard to believe at this stage that there were any teachers working for 20+ years and not permanent.

You make slightly less contributions and get significantly less pension .

" 'Traditionally' people dont get fired or made redundant ."Even ten years ago there were always a certain number of teachers who were struggling (or being made to struggle) who were as good as forced to take early retirement .With changing societal attitudes and weakening or non existent 'defences'(Unions , TC etc ) this will snowball .You dont need a crystal ball -just look at England and you can be fairly sure thats where we will be at in five years time .

A permanent teacher has by no means a 'job for life' anymore .

rainbowtrout

solerina wrote: »

I def think it would be worth it, our conditions have disimproved so much in the last 5 years I dread to think what might happen in the next 10-20. I am paying AVCs ( I know some think that's a bad idea, but its my choice to keep paying, at the moment anyway) so I can retire at 58...so hopefully I wont be too badly off as I will still have mortgage repayments to make (unless the lump sum could help with that).

I'm similar. Have an AVC, mainly so that if I want to go early I have the choice and a back up plan.

rainbowtrout

2011abc wrote: »

You make slightly less contributions and get significantly less pension .

" 'Traditionally' people dont get fired or made redundant ."Even ten years ago there were always a certain number of teachers who were struggling (or being made to struggle) who were as good as forced to take early retirement .With changing societal attitudes and weakening or non existent 'defences'(Unions , TC etc ) this will snowball .You dont need a crystal ball -just look at England and you can be fairly sure thats where we will be at in five years time .

A permanent teacher has by no means a 'job for life' anymore .

You're rolling early retirement in with unemployment. They're not the same thing.

TheDriver

Don't forget a prsi gets a supplementary pension until you can get the contributory oap so all works out the same

solerina

TheDriver wrote: »

Don't forget a prsi gets a supplementary pension until you can get the contributory oap so all works out the same

One pension broker came into our school and panic ensued as she neglected to mention this bit and everyone who wanted to go early thought they couldn't as they wouldn't have this 'top up'...I didn't some research and found out that she had misled us. Relief all round !!

spurious

2011abc wrote: »

They REALLY screw you if you go early .Based on some pretty quick casual calculations for me Id get 28k at around 60/max contributions dropping around two to three grand per year if I left early until by the time you were 50 youd be not much better off than standard non contributory OAP(10k).(Would a Class D PRSI person even get this !?Scarey to think that there are thousands of teachers , myself included, with a couple of decades of service under their belts , WHO WOULD GET NO DOLE if unemployed in the morning!) (Interesting info from Spurious that youre allowed work)

I would be on slightly more than the non-contributory, but I haven't heard casual and aggressive bad language since January 1st and it was a delight I could have heard a couple of hundred times a day during the years I spent at my 'vocation'.

There mightn't be much money, but still no regrets. Hoping to take up work as a dispatcher part-time, doing hours that suit me. No having to bring work home, none of all the teaching add-ons.

I do realise not everyone teaches in the sorts of places I did, but almost 30 years was enough, thanks.

TheDriver wrote: »

Don't forget a prsi gets a supplementary pension until you can get the contributory oap so all works out the same

This. I just have to get A stamps, which the dispatcher job will provide.

PeteFalk78

I'm a real novice with this sort of stuff. I started in December 2000.

How do I know which PRSI category I am in?
Would I be entitled to social welfare old age pension also?

rainbowtrout

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

I'm a real novice with this sort of stuff. I started in December 2000.

How do I know which PRSI category I am in?
Would I be entitled to social welfare old age pension also?

Anyone who started after 1995 is Class A PRSI.

When you get your pension it will include the old age pension.


The going at 55 thing will apply to you or anytime before 65, if you don't have the 40 years done then you will get your pension as a fraction of that.



Simple calculation:

If you started at 22 and taught to 62 you would get full pension.

Each year is 1/80 of final salary multiplied by number of years worked.

So 1/80 * 40 = 40/80 ; pension equals half final salary.

Lump sum payment calculated same way, but calculated as 3/80 for each year worked, so max lump sum is 1.5 times final salary.

So if your final salary is 60 k, 40 years working will provide an annual pension of 30k and a lump sum of 90k.

This 30k includes the OAP of 12k.

The OAP portion is only paid out at 66 (or will be 68 by the time we retire). So if you went at 62, then your pension would be 18k as OAP won't be paid out until you are of age. But those paying the Class A PRSI are entitled to what is called the supplementary pension, which is paid in place of the OAP until you are of age. So essentially it's the same thing and you would have your pension of 30k - 18k from public service pension and 12k from supplementary pension, until you are entitled to OAP.

If you go before 40 years, you work out the fraction of that. Going to assume final pay is still the same.


35 years (going at 57 from above example) 35/80 * 40 of 60 k which would be pension of €26250 and lump sum of 78750.



I started in 2001 so would be similar.

PeteFalk78

Thank you very much rainbow. Much appreciated.

man_no_plan

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Anyone who started after 1995 is Class A PRSI.

When you get your pension it will include the old age pension.


The going at 55 thing will apply to you or anytime before 65, if you don't have the 40 years done then you will get your pension as a fraction of that.



Simple calculation:

If you started at 22 and taught to 62 you would get full pension.

Each year is 1/80 of final salary multiplied by number of years worked.

So 1/80 * 40 = 40/80 ; pension equals half final salary.

Lump sum payment calculated same way, but calculated as 3/80 for each year worked, so max lump sum is 1.5 times final salary.

So if your final salary is 60 k, 40 years working will provide an annual pension of 30k and a lump sum of 90k.

This 30k includes the OAP of 12k.

The OAP portion is only paid out at 66 (or will be 68 by the time we retire). So if you went at 62, then your pension would be 18k as OAP won't be paid out until you are of age. But those paying the Class A PRSI are entitled to what is called the supplementary pension, which is paid in place of the OAP until you are of age. So essentially it's the same thing and you would have your pension of 30k - 18k from public service pension and 12k from supplementary pension, until you are entitled to OAP.

If you go before 40 years, you work out the fraction of that. Going to assume final pay is still the same.


35 years (going at 57 from above example) 35/80 * 40 of 60 k which would be pension of €26250 and lump sum of 78750.



I started in 2001 so would be similar.

good work!

if you go early is your pension not actuarially reduced as you'll be drawing it for longer? I'm post 04 even though I'm embroiled in a row with a different vec over subbing i did in 2002 while on TP (worth a try!)

it really os a minefield. I have found a lot of so called financial advisors to be not fantastic.

does the actuarial reduction only apply to post 04 people?

rainbowtrout

man_no_plan wrote: »

good work!

if you go early is your pension not actuarially reduced as you'll be drawing it for longer? I'm post 04 even though I'm embroiled in a row with a different vec over subbing i did in 2002 while on TP (worth a try!)

it really os a minefield. I have found a lot of so called financial advisors to be not fantastic.

does the actuarial reduction only apply to post 04 people?

Well it is in the sense that you don't have the full years done. If you only do 30 years then you've only completed three quarters of what is considered to be full service so you would only get 3/4 of what would be full pension.



As far as I know post 2004 have to work to 65 and then will get pension based on whatever service years are complete at that stage. More pertinent given that people are going into teaching slightly older - doing the dip a few years after their degree, changing careers and of course the lack of employment, hard to work up years at the start.

I don't know the full ins and outs of the actuarial reduction to post 04 as it doesn't apply to me so I haven't read up on it fully.

blueberrypie

Hi guys
I enrolled in h dip in 2003-2003. I subbed Sept-March.
I secured a mat leave contract in March 2004.
Am I classified as pre or post 2004 for retirement purposes?

I took a one year career break I assume I will have to work on an extra year.

rainbowtrout

blueberrypie wrote: »

Hi guys
I enrolled in h dip in 2003-2003. I subbed Sept-March.
I secured a mat leave contract in March 2004.
Am I classified as pre or post 2004 for retirement purposes?

I took a one year career break I assume I will have to work on an extra year.

I just looked this up blueberry pie. If you google 'post 2004 pension' it's the first link that comes up.

Post 2004 applies to anyone employed after 1st April 2004. It says post 2004 public sector workers will not be paid a pension until they are 65 and there is no compulsory retirement for them.

Looks like you are pre 04 by the skin of your teeth.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I just looked this up blueberry pie. If you google 'post 2004 pension' it's the first link that comes up.

Post 2004 applies to anyone employed after 1st April 2004. It says post 2004 public sector workers will not be paid a pension until they are 65 and there is no compulsory retirement for them.

Looks like you are pre 04 by the skin of your teeth.

What about the 1 year break though? I was told if I dropped contact with dept. paycheck for longer than 6months id be thrown into new pension scheme (like if I got employed by school privately paid).. Or is career break exempt?

newfrontier

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/lump-sums-of-over-150-000-for-five-pension-teachers-1.1891821

more teacher pension bashing ..anybody care to estimate the final salaries and how many years it took to get there!!!!

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

What about the 1 year break though? I was told if I dropped contact with dept. paycheck for longer than 6months id be thrown into new pension scheme (like if I got employed by school privately paid).. Or is career break exempt?

I think career breaks are exempt. I'd have to check. I'm on my phone I'll put up the link later. Because essentially you are still in the employment of the dept/ ETB but receiving no pay for no work for one year and an option to return to your job the following year where you left off on payscale, same contractual terms, resume a post of responsibility (where applicable). So I would assume you also retain your pension rights because you're not classed as unemployed during this time.

You are right about being put into the new scheme if you lose your job at the end of the school year and don't pick up another one for 6 months. Which is incredibly harsh the way the jobs market has gone.

Edit: if you google 'career break teacher pension' it's the first link that comes up. Point 12 in the document

http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/OverviewofPublicServicePensionSchemes.pdf

Moody_mona

Career break, maternity leave, secondments, are all exempt because they're approved leave, so you wouldn't be on the new pension scheme because of that

rainbowtrout

newfrontier wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/lump-sums-of-over-150-000-for-five-pension-teachers-1.1891821

more teacher pension bashing ..anybody care to estimate the final salaries and how many years it took to get there!!!!

I'll bite.

Ya that's easy. Plug the numbers into the calculation I did earlier on the thread.

Lump sum 150k

I'm gonna assume full service as so many teachers that are retiring now would be at full service or close to it

So lump sum is 1.5 x final salary

Salary = 100k

It's impossible to be on 100k as a regular teacher even with an A post, a degree allowance, a dip allowance, a long service allowance, a teaching in the Gaeltacht allowance and an island allowance. They do not add up to anywhere near 100k.
That would be the ultimate best case scenario I reckon!

So that means the retiring teacher has to be a DP or principal.

Assuming top of the payscale if they are at the point of retirement: 59359

Dip allowance (hons) : 1236

Degree allowance. I'm assuming hons masters here as many principals have done masters. Difference is only approx €500 anyway : 5496

Long service allowance for working 35 years : 2324

All of this adds up to 68415

Nowhere near 100k even if an A post was added in

So that indicates management. Top possible allowance for a DP is 27217 so that doesn't add up


That indicates principal. A principal in a school of 27-30 whole time staff has an allowance of 31520


So 31520 + 68415 = 99935

For back of an envelope calculations that's close enough for me

Of course the article failed to mention that only a principal could have earned such a wage and lump sum

For allowances to be taken into account for final pension and lump sum a person has to be in receipt of said allowances for 3 years. So no taking a principals job at 64 and baling out with a substantially improved pension a year later.

So that goes back to my original point. They need to be at full service or very close to it (min 38 years to make the long service payment count and in a substantially bigger school to increase principals allowance to make up for 2 year shortfall) with all those allowances to get that sort of pay out

mirrorwall14

I absolutely hate the lack of research that goes into these articles. It's ridiculous to call that person a teacher when they have to be managing a substantial school to get that salary

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I absolutely hate the lack of research that goes into these articles. It's ridiculous to call that person a teacher when they have to be managing a substantial school to get that salary

Ya and there's no point even fighting back and replying with a break down like I have done above as the response would not be 'we didn't realise it was a principal' it would be 'oh look at all the extra allowances teachers are getting '

newfrontier

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'll bite.

Ya that's easy. Plug the numbers into the calculation I did earlier on the thread.

Lump sum 150k

I'm gonna assume full service as so many teachers that are retiring now would be at full service or close to it

So lump sum is 1.5 x final salary

Salary = 100k

It's impossible to be on 100k as a regular teacher even with an A post, a degree allowance, a dip allowance, a long service allowance, a teaching in the Gaeltacht allowance and an island allowance. They do not add up to anywhere near 100k.
That would be the ultimate best case scenario I reckon!

So that means the retiring teacher has to be a DP or principal.

Assuming top of the payscale if they are at the point of retirement: 59359

Dip allowance (hons) : 1236

Degree allowance. I'm assuming hons masters here as many principals have done masters. Difference is only approx €500 anyway : 5496

Long service allowance for working 35 years : 2324

All of this adds up to 68415

Nowhere near 100k even if an A post was added in

So that indicates management. Top possible allowance for a DP is 27217 so that doesn't add up


That indicates principal. A principal in a school of 27-30 whole time staff has an allowance of 31520


So 31520 + 68415 = 99935

For back of an envelope calculations that's close enough for me

Of course the article failed to mention that only a principal could have earned such a wage and lump sum

For allowances to be taken into account for final pension and lump sum a person has to be in receipt of said allowances for 3 years. So no taking a principals job at 64 and baling out with a substantially improved pension a year later.

So that goes back to my original point. They need to be at full service or very close to it (min 38 years to make the long service payment count and in a substantially bigger school to increase principals allowance to make up for 2 year shortfall) with all those allowances to get that sort of pay out

Good detective work !!! Could be easy enough to see which principals but that does not make as good a headline does it!!! Proof of spin/teacher basher journalism for all who can do their sums!!!

aunt aggie

Armelodie wrote: »

What about the 1 year break though? I was told if I dropped contact with dept. paycheck for longer than 6months id be thrown into new pension scheme (like if I got employed by school privately paid).. Or is career break exempt?

I've been wondering the exact same thing as I just moved back from England and discovered the changes to my pension.

Would you be changed over to the new pension scheme if you work for an ETB for a year and then were employed by the Department in future role?

Really hitting teachers who have no job security already and teachers who are hoping to return to teaching profession from abroad.

rainbowtrout

aunt aggie wrote: »

I've been wondering the exact same thing as I just moved back from England and discovered the changes to my pension.

Would you be changed over to the new pension scheme if you work for an ETB for a year and then were employed by the Department in future role?

Really hitting teachers who have no job security already and teachers who are hoping to return to teaching profession from abroad.

There would be no difference moving from an ETB job to dept job or vice versa once there isn't a break of more than 6 months. You're still employed as a teacher within the state.

Going to England for a year (not on career break) and coming back will put anyone on the old pension scheme before they left into the new one on their return

aunt aggie

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There would be no difference moving from an ETB job to dept job or vice versa once there isn't a break of more than 6 months. You're still employed as a teacher within the state.

Going to England for a year (not on career break) and coming back will put anyone on the old pension scheme before they left into the new one on their return

That makes sense. Previous poster mentioned "dropping contract with dept. paycheck" which made me question the situation in ETBs.

It's a change which will definitely discourage me from applying for management roles in the future. Why take all that extra stress and workload if you're going to come out with basically the same pension as someone who chose to remain primarily a classroom teacher. That's the only bit of the job I like anyway.

rainbowtrout

aunt aggie wrote: »

That makes sense. Previous poster mentioned "dropping contract with dept. paycheck" which made me question the situation in ETBs.

It's a change which will definitely discourage me from applying for management roles in the future. Why take all that extra stress and workload if you're going to come out with basically the same pension as someone who chose to remain primarily a classroom teacher. That's the only bit of the job I like anyway.

It depends on the size of school you're on on which allowance you get. To make a substantial difference financially it would want to be a big enough school .

Also smaller school has a smaller allowance but the principal is also going to be teaching. I wouldn't say it was worth it in that situation.

evolving_doors

Just thinking..(sorry!)..could the Irish times example be a principal in primary?

Darwin

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya and there's no point even fighting back and replying with a break down like I have done above as the response would not be 'we didn't realise it was a principal' it would be 'oh look at all the extra allowances teachers are getting '

Don't want to drag this off-topic too much, but I'm sure Mr Fielding has a history (like his IBEC counterparts) of pontificating at every opportunity against public servants. Our 'rolls royce' pensions also happen to have rolls royce contributions which are never mentioned of course. We should not forget that he is speaking on behalf of small and medium sized enterprises who no doubt have many public servants as customers - something worth thinking about.
Back on topic, it would be very prudent of anyone doing some advance retirement planning (say 10+ years) not to assume the final lump sum will be there (or there in it's current form) - it's an obvious target in the face of the future pensions crisis this country is facing (good read here)

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Just thinking..(sorry!)..could the Irish times example be a principal in primary?

yes, because the salary scales are the same for primary and secondary. There is a difference in the scale for the principal's allowance as the top level allowance for a principal at primary level is 29776 but that's for a school with 36+ teachers and there wouldn't be a whole pile of those schools around.

But it could be a principal of a large primary school.

On the other end of that scale the allowance for a principal in a 1-5 teacher school is 9310.

blueberrypie

Thanks for answering my question on page 3.