N5 - Westport to Turlough [open to traffic]

brianc89 · 16-03-2023 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364874#Comment_120364874

There was a comment about the hypocrisy of Greens supporting bypasses but not this project, which was summarised as a bypass of Castlebar.

@Pete_Cavan, in fairness you followed up and clarified your comment. I agree mostly with your view.

In general, I don't like this constant super critical attitude towards the Greens. Despite the fact that, finally, a party in government is prioritising medium-long term public transport, despite the backlash they receive.

Westernview · 16-03-2023 12:33pm

I agree the Greens have some good ideas such as bypassing towns and ensuring cycle tracks are incorporated alongside new roads from now on.

I think a problem is that they seem a bit disjointed with their message. It's hard to tell sometimes if their local representatives are delivering the party line or just going off on a solo run.

The N5 links 2 of Mayos 3 biggest towns and industry requires proper road infrastructure. The days of lorries stuck behind tractors on our main roads should be behind us.

DumbBrunette · 19-03-2023 12:17pm

https://westernpeople.ie/2023/03/18/action-demanded-at-new-underpass-that-poses-threat-to-pedestrians/

This is basically just fake news now. Councillors are literally denying reality.

prunudo · 19-03-2023 3:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375358#Comment_120375358

Any up to date photos or are they going to continue to use the one from a few months back when this issue was first raised. Lets see how it looks with final wearing course and cones removed.

DumbBrunette · 19-03-2023 5:16pm

Screenshot_20230319_161116_Samsung Notes.jpg

Map showing the redesignation of of the roads around Westport and Castlebar once the new road opens. Mostly as expected, including that the northern relief road in Westport will be part of the N5. Source is https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_docs.asp?PID=231986&LID=263958&AllowPrint=1

Pete_Cavan · 19-03-2023 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376087#Comment_120376087

Presumably if a southern relief road in Westport was ever built, both it and the northern relief road would both become N59.

veryangryman · 19-03-2023 9:07pm

Pretty much everything the Greens suggest outside of the pale can be taken with a pinch of salt. Single carriageway on a busy stretch, would ye fluck off.

Mayo is also one of the only counties that has not a single cm of dialler. Not that this on its own is a reason but the poor bass who has to travel from mayo to near the pale from time to time deserves a break.

Pete_Cavan · 19-03-2023 9:55pm

Like I said before, the statement from the Greens was a load of nonsense but I think this is an interesting hypothetical alternative scenario; would SC west of Castlebar with the saving spent instead on a Westport southern relief road (i.e. creating a full N59 Westport bypass) have been worth considering?

Westernview · 20-03-2023 11:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377478#Comment_120377478

If you consider it solely in economic terms then yes it would probably make sense but the route design is not in place for the the southern part of the westport bypass -only a general corridor has been reserved. So it is debatable whether the money saved from the N5 would be held until that was ready to go.

As somebody previously mentioned on this thread the part of the new N5 extending to Turlough village, including an overbridge, was cancelled and the money instead transferred to the Newport road as that road was ready to go in terms of design, CPO etc. I think what they have done has been the most sensible solution. Also it is debatable if an SC west of Castlebar would meet future (or even current) safety needs given growing traffic volumes.

KrisW1001 · 20-03-2023 11:59am

Yes, a lot of the reason for choosing 2+2 on these primary road schemes is for safety, not capacity. Once you decide to strictly limit accesses to the road on safety grounds, and eliminate right-turn hazards with compact grade-separated junctions, the extra step of going from wide single carriageway to a 2+2 with a central barrier isn’t that big, and it provides a lot of additional safety.

Westernview · 20-03-2023 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378660#Comment_120378660

That's right. I think a lot of people think of a SC versus a DC as being a huge cost saving. Now I dont have the figures but I'd be interested to see the cost comparison. It should be remembered that the DC hasn't a hard shoulder so it's effectively comparing two lanes versus a single lane plus full hard shoulder. So its not that much wider in terms of carriageway. Instead the extra costs are mainly the items you listed, which are worth it in my view as they relate to safety.

Pete_Cavan · 20-03-2023 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378521#Comment_120378521

I wasn't suggesting that that was a realistic alternative, just posing a hypothetical question on the trade off between getting more km of road v lower spec.

Regarding capacity, west of Castlebar has ADT of c.9,000 and 11,600 is design limit for SC. Not all traffic will transfer to the new road, some will be local only and some will have to use the original road heading east to get onto the new road to go further east. FWIW DC is one third wider than Type 1 SC.

Westernview · 20-03-2023 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379718#Comment_120379718

I presumed that you had posed it as a viable alternative when you asked if it would have been worth considering. Obviously a single lane road will stretch further than a dual carriageway for the same budget. Not sure what else there is to say about hypothetical proposals.

Based on the ADT figures you quoted the road is currently at 77% capacity of a SC so I would think that would add to the argument for the 2 lane option. Even allowing for some of the locals not using it the road it looks like it would need the higher spec road to service the area and increasing population for the next 30 or 40 years.

KrisW1001 · 20-03-2023 5:09pm

13,000 is the design limit for Single Carriageway, but yes, any road with 9000 AADT today would automatically be bumped up to a 2+2 for future-proofing. A 2+2 tops out at around 22,000 AADT, but that can be increased by using motorway-style junctions with long on and off-ramps.

In order of width, here are the likely cross-sections for a national primary road:

12.3 m Type 1 Single Carriageway (2.5 m shoulders + 3.65 m lanes)

15.0 m Pre-2007 “Wide Single Carriageway” (2.5 m shoulders + 5.0 lanes), rising to 16+ m at junctions (e.g. N25 Kilmacthomas). -- this road type is no longer permitted for new builds.

16.5 m Type 2 Dual Carriageway, not including offline cycle/pedestrian way. (e.g., N5 Westport-Turlough)

21.6 m Type 1 Dual Carriageway / Motorway (e.g., all the inter-urbans built since 2000, except M1).

23.0 m Wide Dual Carriageway Motorway, not including 7m unpaved median between carriageways. (e.g., M9 Kilcullen bypass, M7 north of Portlaoise, all of M1). The standard is still current, but realistically, there will be no more of this road-type built.

UsBus · 21-03-2023 1:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120361836#Comment_120361836

Got a good laugh reading that. Basically upgrade every road and rail in the county bypassing the chronic traffic problem in 'Balla'😄, while the two biggest towns in the county should not have been freed from gridlock. Time is ticking for these chancers at least..

pjordan · 21-03-2023 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376087#Comment_120376087

Quite a bit of rectifying of signage to be done round Castlebar and Westport and along the old road(s) in between according to that map. The existing signage has a lot of catching up to do to synchronise with the signage on the new N5. And I guess none of that can be done until the new road actually opens?

It also exposes what I consider to be a major flaw in the policy of TII/NRA of downgrading existing national routes to R classified regional roads when superceded by a dual carriageway or motorway. From what I recall the policy in UK and USA was to retain national route status for existing thoroughfare roads with slight name change such as A1A, whereas instead here in Ireland we have the scenario or the still heavily used former Galway Dublin road downgraded to regional status as the R446. One would presume that the traffic on these regional routes will still require maintainence regimes equivilant to national routes but will find it difficult to attract this level of funding allocation owing to their designation as regional routes - something I think will eventually come home to roost in the next decade or so with the detioriation surface quality of these routes

yew_tree · 21-03-2023 2:19pm

Great to have this road opening soon. Safety improved and built to a standard for future traffic increases as population and development (hopefully) grows.

As a south Mayo Resident I do think improvements on the road from Tuam to Ballinrobe are required urgently. The increase since the M17 motorway opened is huge. Everyone is south Mayo now goes to Dublin via Tuam. Even onto Westport (turning left at Partry).

KrisW1001 · 21-03-2023 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382923#Comment_120382923

The US and UK systems are a mess, with duplicate numbers for different routes. Considering both countries are places where route-numbers are displayed prominently on signage, it’s doubly stupid. (Yes, I know the UK motorway network is in its own separate number space, but really it’s not particularly helpful to the average driver, especially when you’ve got the whole A-road-under-motorway-restrictions category to further muddy the water: is it A1(M) or M1? ).

We have a clear and logical route-numbering system in this country, where the lowest-numbered routes are the most nationally significant. Roads 1-50 = roads of primary national importance; 51-99 = roads of secondary national importance; 100+ = roads of regional importance. A road can be busy without being nationally significant - the decision is down to journey distances, not capacity: the section of old N6 you mention is a busy road, but not for national-scale journeys. There are several dual-carriageway regional roads in the country too - that doesn’t mean they should be given a nationally significant number just because they’re big roads; they’re regional because they carry medium-distance traffic. There is also an idea that for a given long-distance journey, there shouldn’t be two parallel national roads: N6 is Galway to Dublin; there is no need for another primary road along that corridor.

(and yes, there are also some very short national roads like N29, but they get to be national primary routes because they connect ports and airports to the rest of the country)

The other reason for making a bypassed road regional is that regional routes are not funded by TII - only the primary roads get direct funding; maintenance of regional roads are funded by county councils. Once a road is downgraded, there are certain things that can be dropped from the maintenance if the traffic is sufficiently low: for instance, any wide single-carriageway route could have its hard shoulders and lane-width reduced to a more appropriate size at a future date in order to save on maintenance costs.

Westernview · 21-03-2023 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383205#Comment_120383205

It makes sense that some would be downgraded and others not depending on how busy they are. I can't see the existing N5 being too busy when the new road opens.

Also the opportunity to reduce the lane-widths on the old road may appeal to the council as I heard they were considering the option of having a greenway alongside it.

pjordan · 22-03-2023 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383064#Comment_120383064

I think plans are well afoot for upgrade works for the R332 between Tuam and Kilmaine. Personally I'd also like to see upgrade works on the R330 Partry to Westport road on which I live and which has seen a considerable increase in traffic since the M17 opened. There are numerous stretches of this road where two oncoming trucks or a bus and a truck cannot pass each other safely. Just this week I had yet another crash outside my house where one car swerved and braked to avoid another coming towards it over the white line and lost control and nearly demolished my shed!

DumbBrunette · 22-03-2023 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386352#Comment_120386352

I never understand why people from Westport travel to Tuam via Partry and Kilmaine, it's a horrific road. I always go via Claremorris - travel time is about the same and it's a much easier drive.

TnxM17 · 22-03-2023 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386352#Comment_120386352

Hopefully along the R330 will be quieter for you once the new N5 is opened.

I worked out earlier in the thread that it would be 22 minutes (22km) using the R330 versus 26 minutes (31.9 km) of pretty good road along the N84 & N5 to a point in the middle of Westport starting from Partry. I would think it makes sense to use n84 & N5 for any trip north of Westport including traffic using NCT etc

DumbBrunette · 22-03-2023 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387310#Comment_120387310

Hopefully once the new road opens it will be slightly faster to travel N5/N84 from Westport to Partry/Ballinrobe or N5/N60 to Tuam. At the moment Partry is 2 minutes slower using the N5, and Tuam is 5 minutes slower. The new road should save at least 5 minutes.

yew_tree · 22-03-2023 11:00pm

Ballinrobe next in line for a bypass? Long overdue. I remember Claremorris pre bypass days. Friday evening home on the school bus used to take 30-40mins to go through the town. Absolute bottleneck.

pjordan · 23-03-2023 9:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387310#Comment_120387310

It's a shame they didn't utilise this works opportunity to sort out the stretch of the N84 at Aughadrina adjacent to the new N5. Like I said earlier in the thread, not only did they fail to address that issue, they even compounded it by preserving the lack of a hard shoulder all the way in to Castlebar town boundary, making it a harsh and unwelcoming (not to mention very dangerous) territory for cyclists or pedestrians. It seems in TII's book that pedestrians don't (or shouldnt!) venture beyond town boundaries on national routes.

Westernview · 23-03-2023 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389752#Comment_120389752

Very badly needed. Strange it hasn't been given more priority on a National primary route between Castlebar and Galway.

Westernview · 23-03-2023 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390412#Comment_120390412

It's a pity alright although the fact that the bridge isn't wide enough for cycle lanes means that the hard shoulder would only be of limited use for cyclists.

I often notice when driving to Partry from Castlebar the amount of available room in the grass areas each side of the road. It really was a missed opportunity not to have a wider bridge linking to cycle paths on this road.