Kilmessan weekend

wav1

Details of this weekends Kilmessan programme
Sat evening 9th Beechmount Cup at 7pm
Sign on from 5.30 in Fergies Bar
Handicap event 42km
Sun 10th Collins Christle Memorial
12 Noon Leinster youths R/R Champs U12 U14 U16
2pm A1/A2/A3/J Handicap race 84km
2.03 A4 Race
Separate womens race subject to numbers
Sign on Sunday from 10.30 at Fergies Bar
All info from Noel at 087 2727801

Beasty

.... think I'll be giving this one a miss this year;)

Harrybelafonte

The Team Pursuit has had to be moved to that Saturday, so I won't make it either.

wav1

Beasty wrote: »

.... think I'll be giving this one a miss this year;)

Understood but im only the messenger on this one.

wirelessdude01

Any strava link for the route/lap?

bellinter

Is the lap the same for both races?

wav1

bellinter wrote: »

Is the lap the same for both races?

Yes 14 km lap.3 x laps handicap Sat and 6 x laps h/cap Sun.
A4 race on Sun is 4 x laps 56km.

bellinter

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Any strava link for the route/lap?

http://app.strava.com/routes/735407

killalanerr

A big thanks to Noel and all the Navan guys for a super weekends racing,I don't know how many events Navan promote but its a lot,without them and a few more like them it would be a very dull calendar,I would like to thank them for there efforts
Im still buzzing after our little cue on Saturday hard and fast and safe ,good fun

ht9zni1gs28crp

Pity the A4 crowd on Sunday didn't have the same guts or desire to race a bike. Why they turn up I don't get it!!! No wonder A3 is swollen with riders as the hide and seek game at 27km/h doesn't work there...


Very depressing to be part of it....

wirelessdude01

Oaklee Worried Velvet wrote: »

Pity the A4 crowd on Sunday didn't have the same guts or desire to race a bike.

Very depressing to be part of it....

Did you make a break?

Heard that two got away for the third and most of the fourth lap. Had over a minute at one stage. Were caught with about 1.5km to go.

ht9zni1gs28crp

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Did you make a break?

Heard that two got away for the third and most of the fourth lap. Had over a minute at one stage. Were caught with about 1.5km to go.

I wish they had got away and finished now with hindsight..... :mad:

I jumped at one stage and three of us were working with one wheelsucking, usual 'chasers' drag the pack across and then back down to 27km/h

I sat up, totally disillusioned on the third lap, went back to the commisaire behind us who informed me the break had 48secs and the women were catching. I tried to gee the field up and off the front with 6 maybe 8 of us working to reel in the breakaway. The usual back markers breezed past for the points in the end, fresh from their 27km/hr sunday leisure spin.

If I wanted to excel at hide and seek Id stay at home with my 5year old on Sundays......

wav1

killalanerr wrote: »

A big thanks to Noel and all the Navan guys for a super weekends racing,I don't know how many events Navan promote but its a lot,without them and a few more like them it would be a very dull calendar,I would like to thank them for there efforts
Im still buzzing after our little cue on Saturday hard and fast and safe ,good fun

Agreed fully.A lot came on here last yr to have a go with what happened last yr.Things tightened up big time this yr and its great that someone came on with compliments and thanks to the organisers.

tailendcharlie

Oaklee Worried Velvet wrote: »

I wish they had got away and finished now with hindsight..... :mad:

I jumped at one stage and three of us were working with one wheelsucking, usual 'chasers' drag the pack across and then back down to 27km/h

I sat up, totally disillusioned on the third lap, went back to the commisaire behind us who informed me the break had 48secs and the women were catching. I tried to gee the field up and off the front with 6 maybe 8 of us working to reel in the breakaway. The usual back markers breezed past for the points in the end, fresh from their 27km/hr sunday leisure spin.

If I wanted to excel at hide and seek Id stay at home with my 5year old on Sundays......

That was me in the break with a lad from Kilcullen, i was absolutely gutted, i was sure going out on the 4th lap that we had it!!!!!!! We had about a quarter of the 4th lap done and the lad in the lead car told us we had 48 seconds, we never lifted the foot of the gas though the two of us were averaging 38kph, not bad going for just 2 of us for the guts of 40 minutes on a windy day.
I was talking to him on the second lap and he was saying he was going to have another pop on the third lap and i said if you go i'll follow as i don't have a sprint but can TT quite well and it worked perfectly until about 1.5k from the finish

Why in the name of god didn't somebody else try to bridge across to us instead of pulling the bunch i will never know, typical a4 tactics, people will work for a bunch sprint instead of having a pop at a break away. GUTTED!!!!!

bwalsh1983

tailendcharlie wrote: »

That was me in the break with a lad from Kilcullen, i was absolutely gutted, i was sure going out on the 4th lap that we had it!!!!!!! We had about a quarter of the 4th lap done and the lad in the lead car told us we had 48 seconds, we never lifted the foot of the gas though the two of us were averaging 38kph, not bad going for just 2 of us for the guts of 40 minutes on a windy day.
I was talking to him on the second lap and he was saying he was going to have another pop on the third lap and i said if you go i'll follow as i don't have a sprint but can TT quite well and it worked perfectly until about 1.5k from the finish

Why in the name of god didn't somebody else try to bridge across to us instead of pulling the bunch i will never know, typical a4 tactics, people will work for a bunch sprint instead of having a pop at a break away. GUTTED!!!!!

People dont bridge in A4. they just up the pace to 'bring it back' and everyone follows. Swing out of the bunch and get your gap THEN bridge. Fair play for having a go, that'll stand to you!

tailendcharlie

bwalsh1983 wrote: »

People dont bridge in A4. they just up the pace to 'bring it back' and everyone follows. Swing out of the bunch and get your gap THEN bridge. Fair play for having a go, that'll stand to you!

They should definitely have a combativity prize in all A4 races, it would encourage breaks to form, otherwise it will just be sprinters paradise for the foreseeable future.

ht9zni1gs28crp

tailendcharlie wrote: »

That was me in the break with a lad from Kilcullen, i was absolutely gutted, i was sure going out on the 4th lap that we had it!!!!!!! We had about a quarter of the 4th lap done and the lad in the lead car told us we had 48 seconds, we never lifted the foot of the gas though the two of us were averaging 38kph, not bad going for just 2 of us for the guts of 40 minutes on a windy day.
I was talking to him on the second lap and he was saying he was going to have another pop on the third lap and i said if you go i'll follow as i don't have a sprint but can TT quite well and it worked perfectly until about 1.5k from the finish

Why in the name of god didn't somebody else try to bridge across to us instead of pulling the bunch i will never know, typical a4 tactics, people will work for a bunch sprint instead of having a pop at a break away. GUTTED!!!!!

the timing of the jump from the Kilcullen lad was perfect. I had only just bridged over to a quartet just before entering the village to see the pack bearing down on us, mainly because we had a guy who wouldn't work! The gap opened up too large too quickly to aid a bridge over of anything decent. It would have needed a three or four working to bridge over and that was never gonna happen with this group.

Looking at the finish I wish ye had stayed away. Would have taught a lesson to a few 'hide and Seek' champions

Like said above, it will stand to you in A3 when you do get there. With riding like that too it wont be long coming either....

tailendcharlie

Oaklee Worried Velvet wrote: »

the timing of the jump from the Kilcullen lad was perfect. I had only just bridged over to a quartet just before entering the village to see the pack bearing down on us, mainly because we had a guy who wouldn't work! The gap opened up too large too quickly to aid a bridge over of anything decent. It would have needed a three or four working to bridge over and that was never gonna happen with this group.

Looking at the finish I wish ye had stayed away. Would have taught a lesson to a few 'hide and Seek' champions

Like said above, it will stand to you in A3 when you do get there. With riding like that too it wont be long coming either....

yeah when i saw him going out of sight, i said if i can get across to him we have a chance. Glad i did it, much prefer to race that way, sitting in gets very boring, for a while yesterday i was cancellara (in my head) haha

I have no sprint though so i have to target stage races with a tt to get my points to get to A3, if i get there before the end of the season i would be over the moon, as i started the season by getting droped in about my first 8 races, That boyne GP i was out the back after about 5k

Welshkev

killalanerr wrote: »

A big thanks to Noel and all the Navan guys for a super weekends racing,I don't know how many events Navan promote but its a lot,without them and a few more like them it would be a very dull calendar,I would like to thank them for there efforts
Im still buzzing after our little cue on Saturday hard and fast and safe ,good fun

Agree with the above - thanks for putting it on. Given all the comments on here about last years race I wa a bit aprehensive about it (first year racing), but turned out fine in the end -to my knowledge anyway, and a good job done by the club. They put on a lot of races this time of year and it's always easy to knock it when things don't always go to plan.
Regarding the comments on the breakway / pace, I noticed it was VERY slow at parts yesterday, especially turning left out of the village. I would loved to have had a pop in a breakaway but I knew I didn't have the legs. Did take a turn when then Navan lads cracked the whip with the up-and-overs to reel them in, but I'd say there was only about 8 or so of us who did - and once we could see the break just ahead it seemed everyone else thought 'job done, I'll just sit back again'.

ht9zni1gs28crp

tailendcharlie wrote: »

That boyne GP i was out the back after about 5k

I finished top 15 that race and am still here lol :eek:

ht9zni1gs28crp

Kevinleeowen wrote: »

Agree with the above - thanks for putting it on. Given all the comments on here about last years race I wa a bit aprehensive about it (first year racing), but turned out fine in the end -to my knowledge anyway, and a good job done by the club. They put on a lot of races this time of year and it's always easy to knock it when things don't always go to plan.
Regarding the comments on the breakway / pace, I noticed it was VERY slow at parts yesterday, especially turning left out of the village. I would loved to have had a pop in a breakaway but I knew I didn't have the legs. Did take a turn when then Navan lads cracked the whip with the up-and-overs to reel them in, but I'd say there was only about 8 or so of us who did - and once we could see the break just ahead it seemed everyone else thought 'job done, I'll just sit back again'.

That was me. I sat up off the front and drifted down to the back totally fed up, our lad in the car behind gave me the times and not wanting to be caught by the women I moved back up and started shouting and roaring with another lad from our club....

Im beginning to love the handicap races more now, everyone arrives with an idea that they have to work....

LeoD

tailendcharlie wrote: »

i started the season by getting droped in about my first 8 races, That boyne GP i was out the back after about 5k

Fair play to you. Going by the reports that was a great effort yesterday.

bellinter

Great weekend thanks to all involved. After the negative reaction to last year it was great for the organisers that it was such a success this time. Looking forward to next year.

on the A4 comments above; is there no merit to a sprint victory, no?! Breakaway lads trying to play to their strengths (fair enough of course) and then begrudging other riders for doing the same thing.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Miller you missed a fast paced A4 race on the Saturday evening, no idling at all, i think the average finished around 41/42kmph.

ht9zni1gs28crp

bellinter wrote: »

Great weekend thanks to all involved. After the negative reaction to last year it was great for the organisers that it was such a success this time. Looking forward to next year.

on the A4 comments above; is there no merit to a sprint victory, no?! Breakaway lads trying to play to their strengths (fair enough of course) and then begrudging other riders for doing the same thing.

Oh there is plenty of merit to a sprint victory don't get me wrong if the whole race is ridden tactfully. Not negatively. Otherwise this 'race' was best started at the bridge and finishing at the pub, maybe 800 metres long.......

So you think im begrudging? Far from it, the actual winner was one who did a fair bit of work to reel in the breakaway so its well deserved.

Jackyback....gutted I missed it. The handicaps are the way forward to entertain yourself with a proper race......

bellinter

Oaklee Worried Velvet wrote: »

So you think im begrudging?

Maybe a little bit? wasn't referring just to you by the way, although I think these were by you?

The usual back markers breezed past for the points in the
end, fresh from their 27km/hr sunday leisure spin.

Would have taught a lesson to a few 'hide and Seek' champions

Anyway, its just a topic that seems to come up a lot on here. Also, negative riding is definitely not unique to A4 from what I've seen so far, plenty of it in the main race yesterday (long after the winning break got away, of course), but I'm still very wet behind the ears when it comes to tactics etc.

cipo

Have to agree 100% with Miller

H/caps are much more like races than a4 only races. I won yday but spent the day trying to get away with a group who wanted to ride. I got away twice solo & then in a group which only 6 (out of 15 or so) rode.

Sat night h/cap was fast with aggressive riding by a lot of the a4 group. Great thing about it was the ones who didn't ride got spat out the back as race went on& speed went up. I set up my club mate for the win there... He got away with around 4-5k to go& held a gap. A1s nearly had us it was a cracker of a race.

No idea why lads turn out for a race just to sit in & do zero then 'sprint' when they can't sprint. I won sprint sitting down. That says a lot I think. I had a good position but was thinking I'll place here -then lads just explode cos they go too early or just don't know how to sprint.

A4 only races are the only place we get a chance to get out & ride hard & get stronger ... We'll spend a lot of time getting our heads kicked in & getting dropped once up to a3 so why not try race aggressively, attack, attack attack... See what happens at least you know you've got a good workout - worked harder than you will in training & will improve from it.

Rolling at 27-30kmh is not racing ....

A massive thanks to Noel, Ger, Navan RC, marshals etc...

ht9zni1gs28crp

bellinter wrote: »

Maybe a little bit? wasn't referring just to you by the way, although I think these were by you?





Anyway, its just a topic that seems to come up a lot on here. Also, negative riding is definitely not unique to A4 from what I've seen so far, plenty of it in the main race yesterday (long after the winning break got away, of course), but I'm still very wet behind the ears when it comes to tactics etc.

Its not begrudging anyone, its a slab palm of hand on forehead at the attitude syndrome. Which is why I stated earlier on in this discussion that I now regret trying to rally anyone into doing any work and wish the Lucan and other fella stayed away. As it showed tactical heads and a desire to 'race' their bike

ht9zni1gs28crp

cipo wrote: »

A4 only races are the only place we get a chance to get out & ride hard & get stronger ... We'll spend a lot of time getting our heads kicked in & getting dropped once up to a3 so why not try race aggressively, attack, attack attack... See what happens at least you know you've got a good workout - worked harder than you will in training & will improve from it.

Rolling at 27-30kmh is not racing ....

This is it in a nutshell.

killalanerr

cipo wrote: »

I set up my club mate for the win there... He got away with around 4-5k to go& held a gap. A1s nearly had us it was a cracker of a race...

Good man how did you manage to hold off a field of a1s all by yourself........

cipo

killalanerr wrote: »

Good man how did you manage to hold off a field of a1s all by yourself........

Not me & not A1s chasing directly...

A4 group worked to stay away & were never caught... Club mate jumped away near finish & held 20sec or so gap to win ahead of A4 group closely followed by A1 group who weren't happy...!! ;-)

Saying that the group worked really hard! H/cap race on Saturday was much harder than a4 only race on Sunday.

FrankGrimes

wav1 wrote: »

Agreed fully.A lot came on here last yr to have a go with what happened last yr.Things tightened up big time this yr and its great that someone came on with compliments and thanks to the organisers.

Great to hear that there were no major incidents yesterday. And major kudos to the organisers for any of the tightening up you mention that contributed to reducing the chances of crashes or just enhancing any aspect of the races. I wasn't there to see it yesterday, but if organisers looked at what happened last year and thought about how to address certain things and did something, anything, to try to address it, that's very much to be applauded and all that anyone can reasonably ask of any organiser.

Not sure if it's the intention though, but your wording does suggest the comments last year were taken as people having a go at the organisers. That would seem to me a pity if so as I think it was more a case of people pointing out the need to try to make races in general (not just Kilmessan), particularly A4, safer and trying to find ways to help with that in a constructive manner. I'd suggest that's also something to be encouraged as everyone has the same goal of always trying to make our sport better and safer.

killalanerr

cipo wrote: »

I set up my club mate for the win there... He got away with around 4-5k to go& held a gap. A1s nearly had us it was a cracker of a race...

Good man how did you manage to hold off a field of a1s all by yourself........

Welshkev

Oaklee Worried Velvet wrote: »

That was me. I sat up off the front and drifted down to the back totally fed up, our lad in the car behind gave me the times and not wanting to be caught by the women I moved back up and started shouting and roaring with another lad from our club....

Im beginning to love the handicap races more now, everyone arrives with an idea that they have to work....

Yep, you seemed pretty p1ssed off!
It was a good effort by the breakaway - I've no doubt if they had only one or two others with them they'd have stayed away. And if nobody, unlike yourself, had said anything they'd have put more time in to us.
Being honest, this is my first year racing and I was always getting dropped earlier in the season. Recently I've been there for the sprints at the end - whether that's more 'me' or the groups easing up is up for debate (hopefully the former!), but I'm still getting up to speed on tactics. Suffice to say I'll be older and, hopefully, wiser next season.

FrankGrimes

Personally, I’d be in favour of some form of incentive to encourage breakaways in A4. At the highest levels sprint winners generally have very impressive sprinting power and their teams generally put in huge effort to control the race and setting up the sprint leadout is a very sophisticated skill so major credit is due. In my view, A4 sprints tend to be more opportunistic, not necessarily the result of working throughout the race, and often the crowded numbers mean the sprinters don’t actually hit top speed. As someone who hasn’t succeeded at it, don’t take my word on that, better to take those that have done well:

cipo wrote: »

No idea why lads turn out for a race just to sit in & do zero then 'sprint' when they can't sprint. I won sprint sitting down. That says a lot I think. I had a good position but was thinking I'll place here -then lads just explode cos they go too early or just don't know how to sprint.

A clubmate who came 2nd in a recent sprint on the hoods said to me ‘I was wondering when the sprint was going to start so I’d kick into full sprint mode and next thing I realise I’m 2nd and it’s over’. So I’d suggest that top-end sprint performances are the exception, not the rule at A4 level.

Not sure how many of those upgraded from A4 feature strongly in A3 sprints, but I’d suspect it’s more likely to be those that showed their strength in breakaways in A4. So given that my understanding is A4 is about developing beginner riders to be able to compete, or at least survive, at the next level, I’d be in favour of rewarding breakaways via reduced points for sprint victories in A4 compared to breakaway victories. Safety is a still a major priority for A4 races and I believe increasing the incentive to try breakaways would be the simplest but most effective way of reducing the risk of crashes in A4, given a high % of crashes happen in the last 5km. It may also have the bonus of encouraging more aggressive racing and give those riders that do get upgraded from breakaway wins probably a better starting point to compete in A3.

Genuinely interested to see what the downsides of this that I’m overlooking would be and maybe it’s a topic for another thread. One counter-point I can see is it would discriminate against dedicated sprinters but I guess I’m not sure there’s many of those at A4 level, or many that aren’t also strong enough to win by breakaway anyway. On the other hand, I’d argue that if there were upgrade points for standalone 25km or 40km A4 time-trials, 10 riders who got upgraded via that route would be more likely to be competitive at A3 than 10 who sat in the A4 pack and got upgraded via sprints. I was betting, I’d still put my money on 10 riders who got upgraded via breakaway wins being most likely to succeed at A3.

Note: as unfortunately many of these discussions tend to focus too much on the individual rather than the substance of the discussion, I’ll pre-empt it and say: hands up, after getting taken out of it by a swerving rider in a sprint in one of my first races, I haven’t had the nerve or tactical-nous to get into position to contest sprints effectively. I can produce pretty high wattage in sprints in training but that ain’t worth a dime if you can’t get into position to go full gas in a race. That’s on me and nobody else. Both as it’s the romantic notion I have in mind about how to win a race that got me into cycling in the first place, and as it aligns with the level of risk I’m willing to take, unless it feels like a very safe bunch on wide roads, I generally don’t compete in sprints. Instead, as time-trialling is my strength, I resolve to try at least one break in every race I do, hoping some day it’ll lead to a badass win, knowing it at least helps the fitness each time. So I acknowledge I’m biased against A4 sprints, but do think it would be good to hear thoughts about whether an incentive to encourage more aggressive A4 riding could work.

bwalsh1983

A problem is guys who handle themselves in the 'sprint' like Djamolidine Abdoujaparov but have the power of his mum (she was probably a powerful lady but you get me). I saw two guys crash last year sprinting for what would have been top 40 places at best. Silly season.

smurphy29

I'm never too convinced by these sorts of artificial methods of trying to shape the race. Bike racing is meant to be 'chess on wheels' and it's up to the sprinters to try and hang in when the racing gets tough, and it's up to the strongmen/climbers to try and get rid of the sprinters. If they aren't smart enough to lose the sprinters, then that's just tough.

In my experience there are plenty of strong lads in A4 who will have no problem doing well in A3, but there seems to be a lack of willingness to conspire with one another to get away. Often, the strong lads are up the front of the peloton doing up and overs and setting a high tempo, even when there is no break up the road. Then as soon as one breaks off, the rest shut down the move rather than waiting to see if a meaningful gap emerges and then making the bridge. That never made any sense to me; they are simply pulling the group along behind them.

bellinter

smurphy29 wrote: »

I'm never too convinced by these sorts of artificial methods of trying to shape the race. Bike racing is meant to be 'chess on wheels' and it's up to the sprinters to try and hang in when the racing gets tough, and it's up to the strongmen/climbers to try and get rid of the sprinters. If they aren't smart enough to lose the sprinters, then that's just tough.

Again maybe, as a first year novice, I am overlooking something but I really don't see how anyone could argue with this.

If someone decides that they are going to go for the sprint finish in A4, there is a little bit more to it than sitting in the pack, laughing and joking, rolling along at 27-30 kph until the very last second when they magically appear and steal the glory. As smurphy alludes to, if this is the case and it's all they are able for.... drop them!

killalanerr

cipo wrote: »

Not me & not A1s chasing directly...

A4 group worked to stay away & were never caught... Club mate jumped away near finish & held 20sec or so gap to win ahead of A4 group closely followed by A1 group who weren't happy...!! ;-)

Saying that the group worked really hard! H/cap race on Saturday was much harder than a4 only race on Sunday.

My version of saterday race is slitely different . A2.3 s vets with the help of the 2 stamullin a4s went for it from the drop of the flag 100/ committed .After much cajoling they got some help from the stronger a4s but even then you got the feeling they were not fully committed. but the vets drove on regardless even when it looked like we would be caught they still kept driving it . Good fun

cipo

killalanerr wrote: »

My version of saterday race is slitely different . A2.3 s vets with the help of the 2 stamullin a4s went for it from the drop of the flag 100/ committed .After much cajoling they got some help from the stronger a4s but even then you got the feeling they were not fully committed. but the vets drove on regardless even when it looked like we would be caught they still kept driving it . Good fun

Was the front group not made up of a4, vets over 50 & women only to begin..??

When I say group I mean the 10 or so that actually wanted to work & ride through... Both myself & my club mate rode until we had a quick chat on the 3rd lap & we agreed he'd sit up a bit, get ready to make a move after I did (I kept going turns)...

I'd agree not all the group rode & lots got spat out - it was 41-42 avg for an 61mins.

ht9zni1gs28crp

bellinter wrote: »

if this is the case and it's all they are able for.... drop them!

Just like that so? Amazing!

See you at the front the next time out, will watch with interest as you simply put....drop them.

Edit: This is all banter by the way A.... :0) Im finished now with this discussion....onto further training now!!!!

wav1

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Great to hear that there were no major incidents yesterday. And major kudos to the organisers for any of the tightening up you mention that contributed to reducing the chances of crashes or just enhancing any aspect of the races. I wasn't there to see it yesterday, but if organisers looked at what happened last year and thought about how to address certain things and did something, anything, to try to address it, that's very much to be applauded and all that anyone can reasonably ask of any organiser.

Not sure if it's the intention though, but your wording does suggest the comments last year were taken as people having a go at the organisers. That would seem to me a pity if so as I think it was more a case of people pointing out the need to try to make races in general (not just Kilmessan), particularly A4, safer and trying to find ways to help with that in a constructive manner. I'd suggest that's also something to be encouraged as everyone has the same goal of always trying to make our sport better and safer.

Not my intention at all frankgrimes.Its just nice to hear good news stories especially when there was a lot of grief last yr.The races went well this yr and this was down to a''tightening''of a lot of things.Helped too that's theres a new club in that village and they assisted in whatever way they could.Smaller fields also helped as the circuit could handle it no problem.
On the A4 issue,i did support for our riders yesterday in this race.First actual A4 race I followed this yr.T o be honest there was no need for spare wheels as they would have had time to stick in a tube yesterday[or maybe even stick on a tub]given the pace of things.Very negative to say the least.and A4 racing is not to be recommended as a spectator sport.What these races need is half a dozen guys going from the gun.to force a big chase and if their caught another half a dozen to go until the whole thing splits to pieces.There are riders in these races who will never be anything other than A4 im afraid.

bellinter

Oaklee Worried Velvet wrote: »

Just like that so? Amazing!

See you at the front the next time out, will watch with interest as you simply put....drop them.

Ha ha, you certainly won't see me dropping anyone. But mark my words, the next time I see anyone...ANYONE, riding away in a successful break and depriving me of the chance of a sprint finish I will lose the f**king spuds

ht9zni1gs28crp

maybe that's what the A4 open races needs.....Vets to shout at us all!!!

cipo

In a4 only races: in short, there are lads who think 'I'm a sprinter' drop me or I'll win (which they don't)

Or lads who want to race / learn / develop / chance their arm a bit / get stronger / get a good workout of it & say I got up the road for a while & tried to actually race my bike.

Lads doing option 1 might be new to it & that's fair enough.. Trying to get the hang of the speed over the distance & building that's great & great they're racing their bike....

But there are lots there able to ride hard for 60/70/80k & don't.

Each to their own, I said to Miller over on strava I'd rather go hard, attack & push a race on than just sit in & wait for sprint.

I hate a4 sprints despite winning yday. Incentives for attacking riding would be great as mentioned above. Primes etc

Harrybelafonte

The thing is though, if you do go for a break you can be left out there on your own getting tired, even if you're with someone. Plus many know/feel that they just can't manage that kind of effort. So maybe one day you try it and you fail, and you watch all those other lads try it and fail, it's hardly an incentive to keep at that tactic. Once every so often someone succeeds, yes, but that's not happening often enough to change your view of it. I tried again and again to go in races earlier in the year, caught every time, or no-one came with me. I just buggered myself out trying it and dropped out in one. So why would I keep trying it every race? In Mondello a few weeks back people were complaining cos some of us were going too hard. You can't win (not literally) in A4.

tailendcharlie

well i have to say, after a nearly a full season of A4 races, and i have done alot of races during the season, yesterday was the first time i saw a break go out of sight (well i was in the break and i couldn't see the bunch) usually the breaks never seem to get that far away. The way i see it, if i keep training as hard as i am, one day i'll be strong enough to make a break stick, but you have to choose the right time to go. I think thats the main reason we stayed away for so long, we timed it perfectly and executed it right.

Harrybelafonte

tailendcharlie wrote: »

well i have to say, after a nearly a full season of A4 races, and i have done alot of races during the season, yesterday was the first time i saw a break go out of sight (well i was in the break and i couldn't see the bunch) usually the breaks never seem to get that far away. The way i see it, if i keep training as hard as i am, one day i'll be strong enough to make a break stick, but you have to choose the right time to go. I think thats the main reason we stayed away for so long, we timed it perfectly and executed it right.

How many years in A4 before that happens?

FrankGrimes

wav1 wrote: »

Not my intention at all frankgrimes.Its just nice to hear good news stories especially when there was a lot of grief last yr.The races went well this yr and this was down to a''tightening''of a lot of things.Helped too that's theres a new club in that village and they assisted in whatever way they could.Smaller fields also helped as the circuit could handle it no problem.

Big believer in credit where credit's due - fair play to the organisers and the local club for any local knowledge imparted to help the preparation or managing the event on the day, definitely a good news story.

wav1 wrote: »

On the A4 issue,i did support for our riders yesterday in this race.First actual A4 race I followed this yr.T o be honest there was no need for spare wheels as they would have had time to stick in a tube yesterday[or maybe even stick on a tub]given the pace of things.Very negative to say the least.and A4 racing is not to be recommended as a spectator sport.What these races need is half a dozen guys going from the gun.to force a big chase and if their caught another half a dozen to go until the whole thing splits to pieces.There are riders in these races who will never be anything other than A4 im afraid.

Yeh, it can be boring enough in the bunch, can't imagine it being a good spectator sport for sure!

Situation:

• I'd estimate ~80% of A4 races end in a sprint.
  
• These are not necessarily won by the best sprinter due to the sheer numbers, and the numbers of riders that seem fine taking gambles using the wrong side of the road to get into a better position.
  
• This eventually discourages those that attempt some breakaways and they get tempted to be the next to try sit in and win.
  
• Only a few courses are hilly enough to really drop sprinters - on a flat course it's not that hard to stay in the group when the pace is average and the defensive approach means the pace is often training ride slow and then raises sharply when an attack is made, then is slow again when the breakaway is gobbled up again. So sitting in the group to wait for the sprint really isn't all that difficult in many races.
  
• This makes for boring, defensive racing. It doesn't necessarily develop the fitness of the group or the placers as well as a system that incentivised aggressive racing would likely do.
  
• It also increases the risk of crashes as people start taking chances to gain position in the build-up to the sprint and the sprint itself.
  
• It is not an exaggeration to say that many people have been put off by the level of risk involved in A4 races and sprinting in particular.
  
• There is no required training for how to sprint or how to prepare for a sprint, and very minimal ability to identify people taking chances on the wrong-side or disincentives in terms of consequences for those that are clearly seen taking chances on the wrong-side, particularly in the high risk period before a sprint. Therefore, the more sprints there are the more crashes there'll be, the sooner local authorities start asking questions and potentially taking drastic measures like those in Swords, so it seems the benefits of reducing the number of sprint finishes are significant.
  
• I'd also propose CI encourage more clubs to run 25km and 40km time-trials for A4 with half a race points for 25km placings and same points as a race for 40km placings. Idea being that the fitness level of someone who wins won of these can be assumed to be no worse than that of someone who wins an A4 sprint. Yes, you'd need to find a way to ensure they've actually completed X number of races to ensure they're race-experienced, but surely that's not an insurmountable task (e.g. clubs already vouch for membership on CI website, they could vouch for minimum number of races completed).
  

Solution:

• It's not possible to make everything rosy overnight. But would providing an incentive to encourage more breakaways not be less bad than the above?
  
• For me, that incentive should be to reduce the points for placings gained in a sprint. Give breakaways the same points as the top placings get today. You'd have more incentive for those that try breakaways to keep on trying rather than saying screw it, I'll sit in like everyone else next time. You'd therefore have fewer sprint finishes and hopefully fewer crashes. You'd have tougher races, fitter riders and more A4s being competitive sooner when they get to A3.
  
• I'd also wager you'd get more clubs working together like teams, again not bad preparation for the higher levels - there's very little of that today.
  
• Apparently, it means you'd also have some specialist A4 sprinters that would then be a bit hard done by. But are there really many of those? And couldn't they just work to shut down breakaways and then recover to win the sprint?

Don't necessarily think everything can be solved overnight but from talking to lots of A4 racers, a lot of people feel the same but then say 'ah, it'll never change, we just have to keep at it'. I'm all about everyone having to keep at it and put the work in, but there just seems to be a bit of a defeatist attitude out there that nothing can change. I'd be more of the view that just because you can't fix everything, doesn't mean it's not worth trying to improve at least something.

I did follow-up last year and proposed some steps within my club about how to improve identification and follow-up on riding on the wrong-side of the road, but it was too late to do anything about it in advance of the Cycling Ireland AGM. But it would be good to find out if there's support out there for this proposal (and how widely held the feeling against it is) as if it's possible to submit a proposal for consideration, I think that would be worth doing - if there's support for it, great, if not, so be it.

tailendcharlie

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

How many years in A4 before that happens?

i'll probably get my points from a stage race with a flat tt, but that won't stop me from trying in every race until then

Harrybelafonte

tailendcharlie wrote: »

i'll probably get my points from a stage race with a flat tt, but that won't stop me from trying in every race until then

I didn't mean to be dismissive btw. This was my second year in A4. I have one point, that's it. First half of the year I did try to break in a few races but it just didn't happen. Maybe I wasn't strong enough, maybe I didn't pick the right time. It doesn't really matter, I don't get much training out of A4 races anymore and am not willing to take the risks involved to get those 7 other points.

Two years in A4 is enough. Maybe I could work on breakaways next year in A4 again and hope at some point to make it, but tbh I'd get more benefit from trying to sit in in A3 races so the question becomes whether to struggle on in mediocrity or just upgrade myself. Despite how swollen the A3 ranks seem in comparison, it's tempting.

I know many here feel there's more honour in upgrading via points but I'm sure we all know that some have been upgraded this way and struggled in A3. The system definitely isn't perfect.