Parents to be jailed over failure to pay home schooling fine

Demonique

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mother-waits-for-final-call-to-prison-30479449.html


A mother-of-two, who was informed she was going to be jailed by gardai last Thursday over not paying a fine relating to not sending her children to school, was left waiting when officers did not turn up to take her to prison.

Despite home-schooling her six children, Monica O'Connor and her husband Eddie O'Neill, from Tullow, Co Carlow, were both found guilty of failing to register two of their children for 
home-schooling purposes.

They were fined €2,000 by Carlow District Court in June of last year.

Fourteen months later they have not paid the fine and are now going to jail.

It is understood they will now become the first couple to face jail over a home-schooling issue.

For homeschooling to be approved children must be registered. It is an offence not to complete this registration process.

The couple were summonsed last year after they refused to register their children with the former National Education Welfare Board (NEWB) which is now Tusla.

Four warrants are out for their arrest for not paying the fine.

The couple expect to be jailed in the next two weeks.

Gardai were due to arrive at the house at 8.30 on Thursday morning.

Monica said: "I'm not looking forward to it [jail] but it's an inevitability. It's the unknowable that I'm afraid of. If the gardai were not going to turn up they should have called me. I was keyed up and so were the children.

"This was a pre-arranged time for this to happen. Now all of us are left in limbo land again.

"We believe that what is happening to us is an attack on the family. We feel the State are trying to police every way of life. Our lives are being put on hold because of this. We just want this to end.

"We are standing up for a principle. Last weekend, I was in Dublin at the zoo with some of the children - and when I was driving up there, I thought to myself, that the next time I will be on this road I will be in the back of a garda car, heading to jail.

"I haven't been sleeping over the thoughts of going to jail - in fact I feel queasy every time I think about it. This was a pre-arranged time for this to happen."

Gardai have told them that the reason the officer did not arrive to arrest Monica, was that she was called away for training at the last minute.

Friends and family have been rallying around the couple to lend their support and give a helping hand while Monica is in jail. They have also received offers of legal representation from around the country after word spread that the couple were being jailed.

Their six children, Darragh (27), Oisin (20), Emmet (19), Oran (13), Elva (10) and Eamon (6) fully support their parents' actions.

Last week, gardai informed Monica and Eddie that they were to be jailed for non-payment of the outstanding fine.

Eddie faces jail soon after his wife is released.

Tusla said they do not comment on individual cases.

The couple have agreed that Monica will go to jail first for ten days to the Dochas Centre of Mountjoy Prison while Eddie will be going to the Midlands Prison in Portlaoise.

"This is a real roller-coaster for us," Eddie added. "It's an attack on our family.

"A mother is meant to be the most important person in the nucleus of a family and she is going to be taken away. Our family is not for sale."

Hotfail.com

Why didn't they just register the children?

Chattastrophe!

They're entitled to choose home-schooling for their children, but of course they were in the wrong not to register them as being homeschooled. They wasted taxpayers' money by having the authorities chase up on the children unnecessarily. And then didn't pay the fine. I'm sure they were well aware of the legal consequences of not registering the children, and of not paying the fine. What did they expect? Different rules just for them?

foggy_lad

They failed to register the children so got fined, they have not paid the fine so hopefully will serve all the time. What makes them believe they are not subject to the laws of the state?

looks like they want to make some sort of statement and are wiling to use their children to do that.

Bongalongherb

The parents should have registered their children either way, but putting these parents into prison is going to have a bad affect on their lives and more importantly their children's lives.

They should not be imprisoned, there are other ways of dealing with this. Prison is a last resort. Backward justice system we have here.

krudler

rabble rabble murderers would get less rabble rabble.

UCDVet

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

They're entitled to choose home-schooling for their children, but of course they were in the wrong not to register them as being homeschooled. They wasted taxpayers' money by having the authorities chase up on the children unnecessarily. And then didn't pay the fine. I'm sure they were well aware of the legal consequences of not registering the children, and of not paying the fine. What did they expect? Different rules just for them?

Freedom from an oppressive government that demands they 'register' before they are able to raise and educate their children?

Fr_Dougal

Quote from parents:

We were all set for our two week holiday from the 6 kids, how the hell could the justice system let us down like this? Have you ever been to Tullow? We'd do anything to leave this sh1thole for a few weeks.

Hotfail.com

UCDVet wrote: »

Freedom from an oppressive government that demands they 'register' before they are able to raise and educate their children?

I imagine they must register their children as home-schooled so the government can ensure that they're getting an education at home instead of in school.

Bongalongherb

foggy_lad wrote: »

They failed to register the children so got fined, they have not paid the fine so hopefully will serve all the time. What makes them believe they are not subject to the laws of the state?

looks like they want to make some sort of statement and are wiling to use their children to do that.

What a nasty little comment. Due course should be community work for non-payment of fines, not prison. What the hell will prison accomplish ? it just makes things worse, especially in a case like this as they are not a threat to society, so why prison ?.

Chattastrophe!

UCDVet wrote: »

Freedom from an oppressive government that demands they 'register' before they are able to raise and educate their children?

Would you prefer if the government just allowed for children to disappear off the radar if they weren't attending school?

Hotfail.com

Bongalongherb wrote: »

What a nasty little comment. Due course should be community work for non-payment of fines, not prison. What the hell will prison accomplish ? it just makes things worse, especially in a case like this as they are not a threat to society, so why prison ?.

Agreed. It's a complete waste of time and money in these kind of situations.

Turner

Bongalongherb wrote: »

They should not be imprisoned, there are other ways of dealing with this. Prison is a last resort. Backward justice system we have here.

There are other ways of dealing with this.... by a fine.

The Judge always asks a persons means before imposing a fine.

The Judge would have said you are being fined 2000 Euro and if you dont pay you go to jail for "whatever" days.

By choosing not to pay the fine these people are taking the easy way out and going to prison (at our expense) and the fine is then cleared.

They have to pay nothing, nada, and we (the tax payer) pick up the bill.

darkpagandeath

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Agreed. It's a complete waste of time and money in these kind of situations.

How would you Enforce paying of fines then ?

Hotfail.com

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How would you Enforce paying of fines then ?

Community service.

UCDVet

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I imagine they must register their children as home-schooled so the government can ensure that they're getting an education at home instead of in school.

Some people feel that it is the responsibility of the parents to ensure their children are getting an education.

Bongalongherb

Turner wrote: »

There are other ways of dealing with this.... by a fine.

The Judge always asks a persons means before imposing a fine.

The Judge would have said you are being fined 2000 Euro and if you dont pay you go to jail for "whatever" days.

By choosing not to pay the fine these people are taking the easy way out and going to prison (at our expense) and the fine is then cleared.

They have to pay nothing, nada, and we (the tax payer) pick up the bill.

You obviously missed my previous comment regarding Community service, as this should have been implemented before any prison sentence.

byhookorbycrook

As a teacher, I can see why the need to register is essential. These parents would seem to be doing a good job, but what would happen if some feckless parent decided not to bother sending their child to school and then claim they were home educating ??

Hotfail.com

UCDVet wrote: »

Some people feel that it is the responsibility of the parents to ensure their children are getting an education.

And if they're not educating their children?

flutered

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I imagine they must register their children as home-schooled so the government can ensure that they're getting an education at home instead of in school.

how come the parents of traveler kid do not get locked up for not sending theeir kids to school.

UCDVet

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

Would you prefer if the government just allowed for children to disappear off the radar if they weren't attending school?

That's called a false dilemma. You are assuming that there are only two options here, either you MUST register with the government (and face fines and jail time if you don't) *OR* you MUST allow for children disappearing off the radar.

Asking me to choose between two options when more than two exist is a false dilemma.

Fr_Dougal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As a teacher, I can see why the need to register is essential. These parents would seem to be doing a good job, but what would happen if some feckless parent decided not to bother sending their child to school and then claim they were home educating ??

As a teacher you'll know this happens with certain sections of society and nothing happens. These sections even have an exemption.

Maphisto

This strikes me as a proverbial sledge hammer to crack a nut. The state want the parents to register they're kids and parents don't want to. Prison seems a waste of the state's resources and I wonder then who looks after and educates the children while the parents are in pokey.

I'm a bit surprised that the Gards make an appointment to come and lock you up. It just seems awfully nice of them.

darkpagandeath

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Community service.

You know most countries have a pay the fine go or go to jail law, It's not unique to Ireland Justice system. And the community service would have to scale to the level of the fine. Would you think 50hrs for a €2,000 euro fine is ok ? For it to cover the cost of the fine people may need to work hundreds of hours to cover the fine.

Turner

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Community service.

If a person is not going to pay a fine they are hardly going to show up on time every day for free labour to avoid jail time.

Paying the fine would be much easier than community service.

Bearing in mind that community service is like a holiday to most hard working people.

UCDVet

Hotfail.com wrote: »

And if they're not educating their children?

What if you are beating your children?
Did you register the F-17 form where you swear not to beat your children? If you don't register, how do we know you aren't beating your children!

They may or may not be failing to educate their children.
They may or may not be committing an endless list of crimes.

But some people believe that we should presume them innocent until we have reason to believe they aren't.

Bongalongherb

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As a teacher, I can see why the need to register is essential. These parents would seem to be doing a good job, but what would happen if some feckless parent decided not to bother sending their child to school and then claim they were home educating ??

It's very simple really, a simple investigation into the parents would show if they were genuine or just lazy/not bothered to educate their children. These parents we talk of here are genuine, but made a mistake in not registering their other two children. You will have more of a problem as a taxpayer if the courts keep putting folk in prison for non-payment of fines, because this is a waste of more taxpayers money.

Tail Docker

TUSLA - a tough town born of tough times, Oklahoma schooling kids its only pet hate.

shruikan2553

Makes sense they have to register, inspections are done to ensure that the children are being taught properly. Either register as home schooling or send them to a school. Its not difficult.

wexie

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How would you Enforce paying of fines then ?

bring back flogging I say, goddamn hippies undermining society :mad:

Hotfail.com

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You know most countries have a pay the fine go or go to jail law, It's not unique to Ireland Justice system. And the community service would have to scale to the level of the fine. Would you think 50hrs for a €2,000 euro fine is ok ? For it to cover the cost of the fine people may need to work hundreds of hours to cover the fine.

Never said it was unique to Ireland.

231 hours at minimum wage = 2000 euro. I think that's fair.

Turner wrote: »

If a person is not going to pay a fine they are hardly going to show up on time every day for free labour to avoid jail time.

Paying the fine would be much easier than community service.

Bearing in mind that community service is like a holiday to most hard working people.

If they don't show up then put them in jail.

Reformed Character

Bongalongherb wrote: »

It's very simple really, a simple investigation into the parents would show if they were genuine or just lazy/not bothered to educate their children. These parents we talk of here are genuine, but made a mistake in not registering their other two children. You will have more of a problem as a taxpayer if the courts keep putting folk in prison for non-payment of fines, because this is a waste of more taxpayers money.

Wrong, they refused repeatedly to register them.
IMO, put them in jail for non payment and put the kids in care until the parents agree to abide by the law.

Tail Docker

Reformed Character wrote: »

Wrong, they refused repeatedly to register them.
IMO, put them in jail for non payment and put the kids in care until the parents agree to abide by the law.

Ooh, look at you, talkin all tough and stuff.

Bongalongherb

Reformed Character wrote: »

Wrong, they refused repeatedly to register them.
IMO, put them in jail for non payment and put the kids in care until the parents agree to abide by the law.

Well that is a stupid way of doing it, when you look at how an upheaval like that will affect the whole family for the worse. Some folk here seem to like the idea of making a family suffer as bad as they can over a stupid fine.

Taxpayers gone crazy. As if you won't be paying more when folk like this are constantly imprisoned. The united nations are not happy with this act of sending folk to prison for non-payment of fines, as it is costing the taxpayer too much, and also taking up more spaces in prisons for real criminals.

darkpagandeath

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Well that is a stupid way of doing it, when you look at how an upheaval like that will affect the whole family for the worse. Some folk here seem to like the idea of making a family suffer as bad as they can over a stupid fine.

Taxpayers gone crazy. As if you won't be paying more when folk like this are constantly imprisoned. The united nations are not happy with this act of sending folk to prison for non-payment of fines, as it is costing the taxpayer too much, and also taking up more spaces in prisons for real criminals.

Define real crime ? what crimes would you stop at and say no jail. I guarantee everyone's opinion on what should result in jail will differ. Well apart from the obvious ones. How long till you would have people going on about human rights in relation to community service lasting hundreds of hours maybe thousands to cover the cost of the actual fine.

Bongalongherb

I genuinely think at this stage, that the parents be given another chance to pay the fine, and if they refuse, they should be given a last chance of community service, and if they still refuse then they will have to do prison-time.

This will be enough to allow these parents to comply, because in all fairness, prison should be the absolute last resort when all else has failed, in my opinion.

Bongalongherb

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Define real crime ? what crimes would you stop at and say no jail. I guarantee everyone opinion on what should result in jail will differ. Well apart from the obvious ones. How long till you would have people going on about human rights in relation to community service lasting hundreds of hours maybe thousands to cover the cost of the actual fine.

I'm talking about fines only, so don't be going off topic.

Guy:Incognito

UCDVet wrote: »

That's called a false dilemma. You are assuming that there are only two options here, either you MUST register with the government (and face fines and jail time if you don't) *OR* you MUST allow for children disappearing off the radar.

Asking me to choose between two options when more than two exist is a false dilemma.

Did they register the kids at birth?

Are they collecting children's allowance? Selective participation in society I suppose?

Should the state just assume all kids are fine and not being neglected unless someone spots and reports feral 10 year olds eating from bins?

darkpagandeath

Bongalongherb wrote: »

I'm talking about fines only, so don't be going off topic.

And when they don't pay them ?

dirtyden

Reformed Character wrote: »

Wrong, they refused repeatedly to register them.
IMO, put them in jail for non payment and put the kids in care until the parents agree to abide by the law.

I was not aware they repeatedly refused but I would imagine that would have to be the case before something like this ever reached a criminal case. Id imagine they were given every warning but wanted the attention and could easily have paid the fine but were happy to cost us taxpayers more money by dragging this nonsense through court. They are loving their self imposed martyrdom. I can only the imagine the whining pleas of 'all we wanted to do was educate our kids'. All of this could have been avoided if the two of them just registered their kids or paid the fine.

Turner

Bongalongherb wrote: »

I genuinely think at this stage, that the parents be given another chance to pay the fine, and if they refuse, they should be given a last chance of community service, and if they still refuse then they will have to do prison-time.

This will be enough to allow these parents to comply, because in all fairness, prison should be the absolute last resort when all else has failed, in my opinion.

They can still pay the fine.

They can even pay it in prison and be let straight out.

They are choosing to do the time, knowing that if they get 30 days in prison, they will most likely be let out in 3.

And their debt to society (the fine) is cleared.

Happens every day in every county in the country, with people harping on that the only people in jail are those who dont have a tv license.

wexie

I'm somewhat confused what the issue is here? There is nothing impeding them or their right to home school their kids is there?
All they were asked to do is to let the authorities know that they're home schooling their kids right?

So what's their issue? They don't have to 'ask for permission' as they seem to think.
These people are creating an issue where there isn't one....

Bongalongherb

Turner wrote: »

They can still pay the fine.

They can even pay it in prison and be let straight out.

They are choosing to do the time, knowing that if they get 30 days in prison, they will most likely be let out in 3.

And their debt to society (the fine) is cleared.

Happens every day in every county in the country, with people harping on that the only people in jail are those who dont have a tv license.

Well if this is the case, then I have no further respect for them.

They have two choices, and if they prefer to go to jail instead of pay the fine/community service, then that's their own fault. They have options so should use them.

Hotfail.com

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Define real crime ? what crimes would you stop at and say no jail. I guarantee everyone's opinion on what should result in jail will differ. Well apart from the obvious ones. How long till you would have people going on about human rights in relation to community service lasting hundreds of hours maybe thousands to cover the cost of the actual fine.

In general I don't agree with jailing people for non-violent crimes, unless they're a repeat offender.

At least with community service there are actual benefits for society, instead of just locking them away for a couple of months.

EDIT: In this situation it's obviously jail or fine as that's the law atm. I'm just telling ye a load of rubbishmy opinion

Bongalongherb

I thought that they didn't have the choice at this time to pay the fine. If they still have the option, then If I was them I'd just pay the fine as they did fail to register their children. If they want to take jail as an option then so be it.

But I will still say that the option to pay the fine should be first, then community service, and if this fails, prison unfortunately. Who would want to go to prison ? it only brings more problems for the family.

Cork_chick_94

The reason they don't want to register is because thay teach their children in a very unconventional way sov they would fail an inspection from the department,

Maphisto

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Did they register the kids at birth?

Are they collecting children's allowance? Selective participation in society I suppose?

Should the state just assume all kids are fine and not being neglected unless someone spots and reports feral 10 year olds eating from bins?

Why not just link the payment of child allowance to satisfactory attendance at school / approved home schooling?

Too simple?

byhookorbycrook

Teaching methods can vary. , the learner outcome is what would be looked at .

end of the road

flutered wrote: »

how come the parents of traveler kid do not get locked up for not sending theeir kids to school.

do you know that they don't? i suspect you don't know, and i suspect travelers have been locked up for it

end of the road

TheZohan wrote: »

As a teacher you'll know this happens with certain sections of society and nothing happens. These sections even have an exemption.

you can point me to this exemption?

Hotfail.com

Maphisto wrote: »

Why not just link the payment of child allowance to satisfactory attendance at school / approved home schooling?

Too simple?

I'd say it could be due to sick/disabled kids having poor attendance, although this could obviously be considered exceptional circumstances, allowing exemptions to the usual rules. It's also not too serious an issue I'd imagine to warrant such action.