Grass; dairy vs sucklers vs economics

FarmerDougal

I'd say the main problem is lads looking at dairy farmers managing grass well and saying 'shur dat wouldn't work here' instead of implementing some improvements like leaving cattle in a paddock for two or three days instead of a week" quote

Just to carry on the the conversation from beef general thread without disrupting what seems to be a good beef thread so far.

I don't think its as simple as dairy farmers are managing grass well and if a beef lad isn't, he's just not bothered. I see some dairy farms locally with poor quality grass and some beef lads with excellent covers.

I don't think its viable to be pushing a suckler set up in terms of output/ha where the opposite applies with dairy. Taking grange Derry Patrick as example. 120 sucklers and followers on however many acres of the best land in midlands, with unlimited infrastructure in place to house and finish said animals, the top beef expertise in the country, lots of labour available etc and a net margin last year (highest beef price ever and good year for grass) of 27000e. This 27k includes 600/ha fixed cost but not labour.

So let's say a good farmer had all his ducks in a row, good land, management ability, quality stock, control of costs, circa 10t/ ha grown and was able to calve, breed cows, manage grass, finish bulls and rear replacements as per grange all on his own with no hired lab our,

Do ye dairy farmers think it would be worth his while for the work and return involved? And would you do it?

TossL1916

FarmerDougal wrote: »

I'd say the main problem is lads looking at dairy farmers managing grass well and saying 'shur dat wouldn't work here' instead of implementing some improvements like leaving cattle in a paddock for two or three days instead of a week" quote

Just to carry on the the conversation from beef general thread without disrupting what seems to be a good beef thread so far.

I don't think its as simple as dairy farmers are managing grass well and if a beef lad isn't, he's just not bothered. I see some dairy farms locally with poor quality grass and some beef lads with excellent covers.

I don't think its viable to be pushing a suckler set up in terms of output/ha where the opposite applies with dairy. Taking grange Derry Patrick as example. 120 sucklers and followers on however many acres of the best land in midlands, with unlimited infrastructure in place to house and finish said animals, the top beef expertise in the country, lots of labour available etc and a net margin last year (highest beef price ever and good year for grass) of 27000e. This 27k includes 600/ha fixed cost but not labour.

So let's say a good farmer had all his ducks in a row, good land, management ability, quality stock, control of costs, circa 10t/ ha grown and was able to calve, breed cows, manage grass, finish bulls and rear replacements as per grange all on his own with no hired lab our,

Do ye dairy farmers think it would be worth his while for the work and return involved? And would you do it?

120 sucklers
Best beef price ever
decent year overall for grass on some of the best land in the country
top notch facilities
still only 27k

A dairy farmer with 100 cows producing 5000 litres each, making 5c per litre profit is making 25 grand.

5 cent per litre is roughly what a good dairy farmer could make with an ok milk price in a year with ok weather.

So a beef enterprise in a very good year is only slightly more profitable than a dairy enterprise in an ok year.

It would be impossible to reccommend beef over dairy

GrandSoftDay

I'm surprised this thread hasn't got more replys. On our own farm I have had a good bit of input with a few years and am on the points of taking over the reins altogether. We are lucky to have big acreage of seriously varying land quality from sheets of rock to wet summer grazing and some good free draining land. Over the last few years I have improved the quality of our cows an awful lot but haven't done and work on the land really apart from regularly spraying for weeds and licking rushes on the wetter ground to keep them at bay. We wouldn't be overstocked by any means and are limited to the amount of stock we can keep at the moment because we don't have facility's to winter any more. I read through the dairy and reseeding and grass measuring threads here regularly and have a fairly good grasp of it at this stage I think. At the moment we have very little inputs. Hoping over the next 5 or 6 years to reseed what ever ground can be reseeded, get soil fertility right, drain a few acres of wet ground and divide up the bigger fields into blocks that can be grazed in 3 or 4 days. Tis all in the head, just a matter of getting around to doing it. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Miname

take out the income from an off- farm job and it mightnt look so rosey. Not everyone wants to go dairying .

FarmerDougal

GrandSoftDay wrote: »

I'm surprised this thread hasn't got more replys. On our own farm I have had a good bit of input with a few years and am on the points of taking over the reins altogether. We are lucky to have big acreage of seriously varying land quality from sheets of rock to wet summer grazing and some good free draining land. Over the last few years I have improved the quality of our cows an awful lot but haven't done and work on the land really apart from regularly spraying for weeds and licking rushes on the wetter ground to keep them at bay. We wouldn't be overstocked by any means and are limited to the amount of stock we can keep at the moment because we don't have facility's to winter any more. I read through the dairy and reseeding and grass measuring threads here regularly and have a fairly good grasp of it at this stage I think. At the moment we have very little inputs. Hoping over the next 5 or 6 years to reseed what ever ground can be reseeded, get soil fertility right, drain a few acres of wet ground and divide up the bigger fields into blocks that can be grazed in 3 or 4 days. Tis all in the head, just a matter of getting around to doing it. Rome wasn't built in a day.

IMO this set up is the most sustainable for sucklers going forward. The best suckler farmer that I know has a char bull with 60 cows roaming over 300 odd acres. No dosing, no fert, no machinery..low fixed costs and turns a good net margin with low labor requirement.

Well done on your progress so far gsd. Everyone's farm is different and you will know what gives the best return as you go.

We have done 100+ acres reseeded since may 13, so not against investing in grass just when it pays

GrandSoftDay

FarmerDougal wrote: »

IMO this set up is the most sustainable for sucklers going forward. The best suckler farmer that I know has a char bull with 60 cows roaming over 300 odd acres. No dosing, no fert, no machinery..low fixed costs and turns a good net margin with low labor requirement.

Well done on your progress so far gsd. Everyone's farm is different and you will know what gives the best return as you go.

We have done 100+ acres reseeded since may 13, so not against investing in grass just when it pays

Dosing is money well spent I think anyway, don't spread much fert and don't have much machinery or need for it either. I'd be a lot happier improving things to be honest, have a great interest in improving the farm in any way possible.

onyerbikepat

If there's one thing quaranteed to give a very good return it's dosing youg calves for worms. It would be top of my list on money well spent on a suckler farm.

Miname

Do ye dairy farmers think it would be worth his while for the work and return involved? And would you do it?

Who put the dairy farmers in charge? Everyone requires a different level of income, if say i can make 20k on top of my full time job for a few hours in the evenings and weekends rather than tie myself down to milking on a block of land that would require to treble in size to provide the same level of returns. I'll choose to take the lesser return which leaves me in a situation to do other things.

IMO this set up is the most sustainable for sucklers going forward. The best suckler farmer that I know has a char bull with 60 cows roaming over 300 odd acres. No dosing, no fert, no machinery..low fixed costs and turns a good net margin with low labor requirement.
We have done 100+ acres reseeded since may 13, so not against investing in grass just when it pays

I'll take it your a dairy farmer thats investing in grass or else the whole lot was let for tillage or something and you reseeded then, otherwise these are completly contradicting statements and this is just another. "Dairy farmers are great and suckler farmers are rooters" thread.

Farming returns whatever you put into it, ive reseeded over 30% of my farm i n the last three years, ive built and paid for the majority of a new suckler shed and trebled the farm output in that same period while still pulling money out for myself. all as a partime project so yes for me investing has paid, it mightnt be enough to survive solely on but its enough for me to keep at it.

FarmerDougal

"Who put the dairy farmers in charge? Everyone requires a different level of income, if say i can make 20k on top of my full time job for a few hours in the evenings and weekends rather than tie myself down to milking on a block of land that would require to treble in size to provide the same level of returns. I'll choose to take the lesser return which leaves me in a situation to do other things."

Question was posed to dairy farmers in beef thread who were advocating reseeding and pushing stocking rate. Never said everyone should go dairying. My example of grange was based on a full time suckler farmer not incl sfp


I'll take it your a dairy farmer thats investing in grass or else the whole lot was let for tillage or something and you reseeded then, otherwise these are completly contradicting statements and this is just another. "Dairy farmers are great and suckler farmers are rooters" thread."

None of the above. Beef finishing, not that it matters to the point I was making.

"Farming returns whatever you put into it, ive reseeded over 30% of my farm i n the last three years, ive built and paid for the majority of a new suckler shed and trebled the farm output in that same period while still pulling money out for myself. all as a partime project so yes for me investing has paid, it mightnt be enough to survive solely on but its enough for me to keep at it."

Again, ex I gave was full time suckler farmer. Not incl sfp or off-farm job, feel free to correct me if neither of these have contributed to recent expansion of your farm..

Not against suckler farmers, we need them to be profitable and consistently supply our raw material, just saying derrypatrick herd should be a big wake up call for people advocating high input/output suckler farming without cushion of off farm job.

Miname

neither sfp nor off farm income was used. derrypatrick is a trial herd, sometimes trials work and sometimes they dont.

FarmerDougal

Miname wrote: »

neither sfp nor off farm income was used. derrypatrick is a trial herd, sometimes trials work and sometimes they dont.

It has worked though in that its hitting all the targets set out at the start, but the final margin is dissapointing imo.
Fair play, you must be doing something different to invest so much in your farm and take a profit too..

blue5000

FarmerDougal wrote: »

IMO this set up is the most sustainable for sucklers going forward. The best suckler farmer that I know has a char bull with 60 cows roaming over 300 odd acres. No dosing, no fert, no machinery..low fixed costs and turns a good net margin with low labor requirement.

Well done on your progress so far gsd. Everyone's farm is different and you will know what gives the best return as you go.

We have done 100+ acres reseeded since may 13, so not against investing in grass just when it pays

Not everyone has 300 acres for 60 cows to wander over. Wonder how many kg of beef he produces /ha/yr?

I think beef farmers would be better off using clover, has worked well for me this year anyway.

conor t

blue5000 wrote: »

Not everyone has 300 acres for 60 cows to wander over. Wonder how many kg of beef he produces /ha/yr?

I think beef farmers would be better off using clover, has worked well for me this year anyway.

One of the teagasc farms was using a lot of clover, they reckoned you could stock at 1,8 dairy cows with 0n or 2,2 cows with 50kg n/ha

frazzledhome

conor t wrote: »

One of the teagasc farms was using a lot of clover, they reckoned you could stock at 1,8 dairy cows with 0n or 2,2 cows with 50kg n/ha

One prob nothing at the shoulders from clover and low SR

Greengrass1

conor t wrote: »

One of the teagasc farms was using a lot of clover, they reckoned you could stock at 1,8 dairy cows with 0n or 2,2 cows with 50kg n/ha

Girlfriends uncle is in organic milk. Big tract of land. Doubt its a cow/ha.
Not sure how you would reseed without weeds taking over

Muckit

Is SR stocking rate? If it is l wouldn't rate that as a negative for beef. No point having a high stocking rate necessitating high fertiliser inputs and these not being covered by your return. Not having good growth at shoulders, again would not be a negative on a wet heavy farm as grass would be walked into the ground anyway so cattle better off inside.

As always one size does not fit all.

blue5000

frazzledhome wrote: »

One prob nothing at the shoulders from clover and low SR

Not necessarily, I can gradually let cattle out from about 1st wk of Feb. I do use N as well, none used since May and will go again later this month to build up autumn grass.

conor t

frazzledhome wrote: »

One prob nothing at the shoulders from clover and low SR

Using the 50kg of n in the spring what they did, think they got 12-13 tonne DM grown with that

Miname

The low stocking rate only works with large tracts of marginal land with absolute minimal inputs. there is ground out there thats suited for wintering and there is ground out there that i think is just questionable whether its worth even spreading fertilizer on. in a circumstance like this extensive farming may be the best option, however if the ground is anyway half reasonable a more intensive perspective is the best option. overheads are basically just spread over a larger no. of animals.

Muckit

conor t wrote: »

Using the 50kg of n in the spring what they did, think they got 12-13 tonne DM grown with that

Was that a bag of nitrogen/acre? God that's good going.

I think this is the way forward for beef. Again will not work for everyone, but if you make all bales and the vast majority is mowable, ALL your fertiliser needs to go out when you will get the biggest bang from it, spring. Why put out a product at other times of the year when you are getting reduced efficiency? Let the fertilser and NATURE grow the grass, then it's your job as a farmer to manage it. Keep stock moving into leafy grass and take out paddocks for silage on paddocks that ahead. 'But my paddocks are too small'..... use temporary elec fence stakes and roll up wire and take out a few paddocks together.

Greengrass1

Muckit wrote: »

Was that a bag of nitrogen/acre? God that's good going.

I think this is the way forward for beef. Again will not work for everyone, but if you make all bales and the vast majority is mowable, ALL your fertiliser needs to go out when you will get the biggest bang from it, spring. Why put out a product at other times of the year when you are getting reduced efficiency? Let the fertilser and NATURE grow the grass, then it's your job as a farmer to manage it. Keep stock moving into leafy grass and take out paddocks for silage on paddocks that ahead. 'But my paddocks are too small'..... use temporary elec fence stakes and roll up wire and take out a few paddocks together.

Is that not how we have this p and k problem in the country by lads not feeding soil. I don't know about you but my grass would go to ****e if I spread no fert. It would go steamy as hell

FarmerDougal

blue5000 wrote: »

Not everyone has 300 acres for 60 cows to wander over. Wonder how many kg of beef he produces /ha/yr?

Its an extreme example I suppose.
55 calves at 270kg is 123kg/ha/yr.
123*2.50e/kg is 307e/ha.
Assume variable and fixed cost 12000e( 100/ha)
Net margin 207e/ha
100/ha less than better farms

This is a distant out farm where very little time spent with land or stock

Coonagh

Jesus if I wasn't already after converting to dairy this thread would have definitely pushed me over the edge! 60 cows on 300 acres is in no way sustainable, that size of farm has massive potential. At that kind of stocking rate surely it would make more sense to rent it out for say €150/acre, returning €45000 per annum and get the value of your entitlements back on top of that as part of the agreement.

frazzledhome

Coonagh wrote: »

Jesus if I wasn't already after converting to dairy this thread would have definitely pushed me over the edge! 60 cows on 300 acres is in no way sustainable, that size of farm has massive potential. At that kind of stocking rate surely it would make more sense to rent it out for say €150/acre, returning €45000 per annum and get the value of your entitlements back on top of that as part of the agreement.

Wondered how long you'd last?

Coonagh

frazzledhome wrote: »

Wondered how long you'd last?

FarmerDougal

Coonagh wrote: »

Jesus if I wasn't already after converting to dairy this thread would have definitely pushed me over the edge! 60 cows on 300 acres is in no way sustainable, that size of farm has massive potential. At that kind of stocking rate surely it would make more sense to rent it out for say €150/acre, returning €45000 per annum and get the value of your entitlements back on top of that as part of the agreement.

Likewise you could rent out grange 200acre @ 200/acre is 40k versus 27k its currently leaving and save the tax payer afew pound in the process!!

Coonagh

FarmerDougal wrote: »

Likewise you could rent out grange 200acre @ 200/acre is 40k versus 27k its currently leaving and save the tax payer afew pound in the process!!

You have just summed up the irish beef industry. From 1st April next year beef farming will be pushed to the marginal land on this island.

FarmerDougal

Coonagh wrote: »

You have just summed up the irish beef industry. From 1st April next year beef farming will be pushed to the marginal land on this island.

Maybe it will. But will it be the ability of dairying to generate a margin or the beef farmers unwillingness to improve his farming system? I think the prior, because if all beef farms were better farms we still can't compete.

Coonagh

Beef cannot compete with dairying, removal of quotas and the shift in cap payments west will result in beef or arable farmers on good blocks of quality land look to dairying in some form or another to get a real return on their asset, business must come first no room for sentiment.

Greengrass1

Coonagh wrote: »

Beef cannot compete with dairying, removal of quotas and the shift in cap payments west will result in beef or arable farmers on good blocks of quality land look to dairying in some form or another to get a real return on their asset, business must come first no room for sentiment.

Doing a few back of fag box figures today. A 150ac dairy farm with no sfp would make more than a 300ac spring tillage farm with entitlements

Coonagh

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Doing a few back of fag box figures today. A 150ac dairy farm with no sfp would make more than a 300ac spring tillage farm with entitlements

F that tillage game at that kind of acreage there's nothing out of it only cigarette money, scale is everything in grain farming fixed costs are too high at low acreage

Greengrass1

Coonagh wrote: »

F that tillage game at that kind of acreage there's nothing out of it only cigarette money, scale is everything in grain farming fixed costs are too high at low acreage

The two biggest operators in Wexford are at everything else they can to make money out of it. Fert, there own feed and farming supplies company, spreading fert, hauling grain. All in last 5 yrs. Shows how tight money is in it.
One after getting into machinery too. Trying to get the fendt agency of the local lad

Sam Kade

Coonagh wrote: »

F that tillage game at that kind of acreage there's nothing out of it only cigarette money, scale is everything in grain farming fixed costs are too high at low acreage

A €10 bag of rollies lasting 5 days