Rules question-returning card

big_drive

Think I know the answer here but looking for clarification

Player X (10 handicap) plays an open singles at an away club. Does well enough scoring 38 points. Enters score into computer at club.
All ok until later that night when he finds his scorecard still in his trousers, was never put into scorecard box in club.

I presume this is disqualification for not returning card?

If CSS was 36 points does he still receive a cut of 0.4 despite disqualification?

golfwallah

Player, club and committee responsibilities are all set out in the CONGU rules, for example:

Responsibilities of the player:
8.8 Ensure that all competition cards in Qualifying Competitions, whether or not complete, are returned to the organising Committee, and make such computer entries as may be required – see Decisions, Dec. 1(m) and Dec. 1(n).

8.10 Report to his Home Club as soon as practicable all Qualifying Scores (including ‘No Returns’ and Disqualified Scores – see Appendix P) returned away from his Home Club advising the Home Club of the date of the Qualifying Competition, the venue, Standard Scratch Score and the Competition Scratch Score together with the following:
(c) After a Stableford Qualifying Competition, the Par of the course and the number of points scored. In Ireland, see also Clause 8.12(b).

Note 1: Players are reminded that failure to report all Qualifying Scores returned away from their Home Clubs (including ‘No Returns’ and Disqualified Scores – see Appendix P) as required by the UHS could lead to the suspension of offending players’ handicaps under the provisions of Clause 24

Note 3: The fact that scores recorded by players competing in competitions away from their Home Club may be reported to their Home Club by the competition organisers, or through a Centralised Database of Handicaps (CDH), does not remove the responsibility of individual players to ensure that all relevant scores are recorded in their Player Handicap Record

Responsibilities of the handicap committee:
7.7. When the club is a player’s Home Club:
(b) Ensure his scores are recorded as soon as practicable after completion of each Qualifying Competition at his Home Club or after the reporting of a Qualifying Score returned elsewhere, either by the Player or automatically via a Union’s CDH, and that all Exact Handicaps are calculated in relation to scores recorded in chronological order. Once processed by the Home Club, all scores and associated handicap adjustments must be uploaded to the Union’s CDH.
(j) Specify the manner by which ‘away’ Qualifying Scores must be reported by a Member to his Home Club – see Clause 8.10.

A bit "wordy", I'll grant you. Effectively, the above indicates a handicap cut will be applied - read further re disqualification (as far as I know he is disqualified from the comp. and won't get any prize). He should also check with his club's handicap secretary re need to enter score in the "away book", when it has already been entered into the computer system. In our club, away book entries are only required if not already input to the system.

big_drive

I wasn't fully sure if the cut would apply. Score would have been in the prizes too I think, shame

Goodluck2me

It seems a ridiculous rule in many ways, should be able to just send in the card to the club. What odds if its a day late?

golfwallah

Goodluck2me wrote: »

It seems a ridiculous rule in many ways, should be able to just send in the card to the club. What odds if its a day late?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but handicap committees are voluntary, with limited time availability, and members and visitors want to see results and handicap adjustments published quickly.

I've served on such a committee - it requires a lot of work on a consistent basis. So it's understandable that rules and structures have been built to make the job doable by volunteers.

This is what Congu Rules (page 91) has to say on it:

Dec.1(p) Failure to Return A Scorecard on Completion of Round Causing Inconvenience to Handicap Committee.
Q. A few players fail frequently to return a scorecard on completion of their round in a Qualifying Competition causing the Handicap Committee additional work in establishing the player(s) who have failed to return cards in order that the competition can be closed and handicap adjustments made as appropriate. What sanctions can a club take against a player who fails to fulfil this basic requirement?
A. The club would be entitled to suspend the player’s right to compete in club competitions for an appropriate period

Norfolk Enchants_

Goodluck2me wrote: »

It seems a ridiculous rule in many ways, should be able to just send in the card to the club. What odds if its a day late?

It makes no odds whatsoever IMO as long as he has entered his score in the computer, discretion can and should be used, in the OPs case he should have made contact with the club explaining the situation and made arrangements to get the card returned asap, if the committee then suspected anything untoward happened to the scorecard in the mean time, they then could make further enquires.

golfwallah

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

It makes no odds whatsoever IMO as long as he has entered his score in the computer, discretion can and should be used, in the OPs case he should have made contact with the club explaining the situation and made arrangements to get the card returned asap, if the committee then suspected anything untoward happened to the scorecard in the mean time, they then could make further enquires.

It does make a big difference if scorecards are missing.

I've often seen scores entered into the system that were different to those recorded on the scorecard.

For example, I've seen cases of people sometimes entering their Stableford points instead of the number of strokes.

There's just no accounting for peoples' computer literacy or the types of mistakes that can happen. The only way to be absolutely sure is to have the actual scorecards, signed by the player and marker.

Match & Handicap committees are volunteers, working part time and few clubs would have the resources to deal with the kind of situation you describe. That's why there are rules - my experience is that the simplest and most consistent way to do things is to stick to those rules.

Norfolk Enchants_

golfwallah wrote: »

It does make a big difference if scorecards are missing.

I've often seen scores entered into the system that were different to those recorded on the scorecard.

For example, I've seen cases of people sometimes entering their Stableford points instead of the number of strokes.

There's just no accounting for peoples' computer literacy or the types of mistakes that can happen. The only way to be absolutely sure is to have the actual scorecards, signed by the player and marker.

Match & Handicap committees are volunteers, working part time and few clubs would have the resources to deal with the kind of situation you describe. That's why there are rules - my experience is that the simplest and most consistent way to do things is to stick to those rules.

Strictly speaking you are of course correct, I understand fully the implications of this happening on a regular or even intermittent basis, but on the rare occasion of it happening discretion can and should be used.

GreeBo

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Strictly speaking you are of course correct, I understand fully the implications of this happening on a regular or even intermittent basis, but on the rare occasion of it happening discretion can and should be used.

Allowing things to slide on the rare occasions leads to them happening regularly in my experience.

Norfolk Enchants_

GreeBo wrote: »

Allowing things to slide on the rare occasions leads to them happening regularly in my experience.

It's not really a question of allowing things to slide, it's clear what the rule is and also what the sanction is, it's just alot of people are unaware that there is a certain amount of discretion and common sense that can be applied, although it's very much dependant on the club and persons and the facts involved.
E.g if the OP had phoned me and explained his situation, there is every likelyhood in my capacity as competition secretary I would have allowed his score to stand, assumming what he says is true and the card is correct and can be verified with the marker.

golfwallah

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

It's not really a question of allowing things to slide, it's clear what the rule is and also what the sanction is, it's just alot of people are unaware that there is a certain amount of discretion and common sense that can be applied, although it's very much dependant on the club and persons and the facts involved.
E.g if the OP had phoned me and explained his situation, there is every likelyhood in my capacity as competition secretary I would have allowed his score to stand, assumming what he says is true and the card is correct and can be verified with the marker.

I understand where you are coming from, but still think the common good has to take precedence over the interests of the individual in this case.

Just look at the practicalities involved. The player had entered a competition in an away club. If he rings next day, there may be no one at the other end to deal with the query other than the pro shop and the competition may already have been closed and the results published (the usual situation in our club). Not all Competition Secretaries make their phone number available for contact during their own working hours or private time. Not only that, but closing competitions on the evening of the competition often involves a member of the competition committee travelling to and from the club just for that purpose.

I could understand it happening if the comp. secretary knew the person involved, used discretion and took the trouble to ring him - but otherwise the default position has to be applying the rules. To do otherwise would lead to chaos as regards competitions, handicaps, etc., from a club perspective.

GreeBo

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

It's not really a question of allowing things to slide, it's clear what the rule is and also what the sanction is, it's just alot of people are unaware that there is a certain amount of discretion and common sense that can be applied, although it's very much dependant on the club and persons and the facts involved.
E.g if the OP had phoned me and explained his situation, there is every likelyhood in my capacity as competition secretary I would have allowed his score to stand, assumming what he says is true and the card is correct and can be verified with the marker.

Right, and people being people, you waive the sanction for person A and person B then has the same situation and you dont waive it. Instant problem for yourself. Thats why we have rules, so that you dont open yourself to situations like this for "favourites".

Norfolk Enchants_

golfwallah wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from, but still think the common good has to take precedence over the interests of the individual in this case.

Just look at the practicalities involved. The player had entered a competition in an away club. If he rings next day, there may be no one at the other end to deal with the query other than the pro shop and the competition may already have been closed and the results published (the usual situation in our club). Not all Competition Secretaries make their phone number available for contact during their own working hours or private time. Not only that, but closing competitions on the evening of the competition often involves a member of the competition committee travelling to and from the club just for that purpose.

I could understand it happening if the comp. secretary knew the person involved, used discretion and took the trouble to ring him - but otherwise the default position has to be applying the rules. To do otherwise would lead to chaos as regards competitions, handicaps, etc., from a club perspective.

In that situation where the comp was closed and the results published and there was no card to verify the score then DQ is the only option available.
Look we are just going around in circles and will have to agree to disagree, but personally speaking I'll continue to apply discretion and common sense where and whenever possible.

GreeBo wrote: »

Right, and people being people, you waive the sanction for person A and person B then has the same situation and you dont waive it. Instant problem for yourself. Thats why we have rules, so that you dont open yourself to situations like this for "favourites".

Relax the head there GreeBo, we're not waiving anything for anyone and not favouring one over another, simply applying common sense in a discreet fashion;).

GreeBo

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Relax the head there GreeBo, we're not waiving anything for anyone and not favouring one over another, simply applying common sense in a discreet fashion;).

And the difference between waiving and discretion is?

attack the post and not the poster in future please.

golfwallah

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

In that situation where the comp was closed and the results published and there was no card to verify the score then DQ is the only option available.
Look we are just going around in circles and will have to agree to disagree, but personally speaking I'll continue to apply discretion and common sense where and whenever possible.

Glad to hear you will continue to apply common sense and discretion whenever possible. I have no issue with this approach nor do the people I know, who have been involved on match & handicap committees over the years. From what I’ve seen these people do, indeed, use these attributes in carrying out their duties and to imply that they do not is simply not borne out in reality.

That being said, things like missing cards are not the only issues they have to deal with. Their primary responsibilities are dealing with the practicalities of setting up and closing competitions, checking cards against the computer, publishing results, reviewing handicaps, etc. Competition Secretary is one of the most onerous jobs on committee – particularly in clubs where there are a lot of competitions (we have 2 opens, 1 semi-open and one members’ comp. every week).

So, the player error and player perspective are but one side of the argument. And exactly where you are coming from is not exactly clear. For example, are you really the competition secretary in a golf club or are you using a hypothetical situation:

E.g if the OP had phoned me and explained his situation, there is every likelyhood in my capacity as competition secretary I would have allowed his score to stand, assumming what he says is true and the card is correct and can be verified with the marker.

Would better inform the debate, IMO, if you explained clearly where you are coming from – is it from a genuine position of a real handicap secretary or from your assumptions of what you would do if you were one?

fullstop

Goodluck2me wrote: »

It seems a ridiculous rule in many ways, should be able to just send in the card to the club. What odds if its a day late?

He didn't return a card and the competition is, presumably, closed with results published when he has found the card.

doublej

The score entered into the computer speeds up the process of determining placings, CSS and handicap adjustments but cannot be used to validate a score; this is done by the signature of both player and marker.
If a card is not available to the Competition Committee at the time that the Competition is deemed closed, then surely that players score cannot be considered to be in the reckoning for a prize.