Request to bring laptop on annual leave, my rights?

Lainey_b01

Hi I work for an Irish subsidiary company and report into non irish management based outside EU. There is a culture in that location to be always on laptop /phone in evenings, weekends or annual leave.

The MD is based in that location and sent email on annual leave procedures today . In that email one or the 5 points was that laptop must be taken while on annual leave and checked. I think this is totally out of line. My annual leave is to get away from work not bring it with me! I work hard enough when in work ! We have no local HR. I would prefer to revert with employment law reference, work standard etc but can't find anything on line. Anyone here know?

I'm on an irish contract.

endacl

Would be a real bummer if you took the laptop, but couldn't get on to a wifi network while on holiday...

ted1

Do you get paid a premium to be on call?

Mrs OBumble

Taking it ... meh.

But checked? That means spending time actually doing work. Did he say how much time? I'm pretty sure that would be seen as a health-and-safety breach for Irish-based staff.

Have you got an colleagues in other EU locations who you can compare notes with? I'm picking that the French wouldn't take too kindly to that sort of thing.

Stheno

Lainey_b01 wrote: »

Hi I work for an Irish subsidiary company and report into non irish management based outside EU. There is a culture in that location to be always on laptop /phone in evenings, weekends or annual leave.

The MD is based in that location and sent email on annual leave procedures today . In that email one or the 5 points was that laptop must be taken while on annual leave and checked. I think this is totally out of line. My annual leave is to get away from work not bring it with me! I work hard enough when in work ! We have no local HR. I would prefer to revert with employment law reference, work standard etc but can't find anything on line. Anyone here know?

I'm on an irish contract.

France recently brought in an agreement on this (not a law) that prohibits employers from contacting employees out of hours, and equally places no onus on employees to check mails etc out of hours.

AFAIK there is nothing in Irish law that explicitly calls this out, I work in IT and for years, it's been a standard practice that if you are on leave and a SPOF (single point of failure) and something could come up, you'd check your mail when you could. No obligation, but it's fairly common practice.

There may be something deep in the likes of the Organisation of Working Time act, but nothing I am explicitly aware of.

Out of interest, is your parent company based in the States?

_Brian

This is a tough one.
I had a similar irish manager who expected us to be online on our shifts off. He got quite irritated when we weren't up to speed with stuff that happened on our time off immediately on arrival to work or he would ring asking about stuff at work when we were off.

Refusing someone like this can be a tricky one as while youse be right you're likely sealing your own fate regarding your future in the company - worth thinking of.

Like someone else said. Wifi abroad is notoriously hard to manage and ten you could just delete a system file and hand it back after holidays saying it just crashed.

Many will say tell him to F off, maybe they're right but this type of person will remember that. Make sure your happy with the potential repercussions if you do.

wexie

Stheno wrote: »

AFAIK there is nothing in Irish law that explicitly calls this out, I work in IT and for years, it's been a standard practice that if you are on leave and a SPOF (single point of failure) and something could come up, you'd check your mail when you could. No obligation, but it's fairly common practice.

Goddamn Blackberry :mad:

OP, the best advice I can give you is to have a good hard think about quite how much you like your job and quite how likely you'll find another one at short notice. Like people have already pointed out, you'd be well within your rights to give them short shrift however it's likely to go down like a fart in church.

If you like your job, how much would it pain you to spend half an hour (an hour?) every evening checking mail (is there a requirement for you to be sober? ) with a glass of sangria/beer/wine/vodka/methylated spirits to keep the peace?

There's no harm in letting them know you're only to be contacted in an absolute emergency though.

Alternatively you could tell them you're vacationing in Ballybackarseofnowhere and there's no mobile/wifi coverage: 'would you like me to expense a satphone sir?'

Bepolite

Simply raise a grievance or simply say no. There is no point barrack room layering (I know - oh the irony).

I vaguely remember a guy winning compensation for being contacted out of hours in the UK. This may have been on the basis of unfair dismissal though.

Lainey_b01

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. I report into a middle eastern location and we are the only EU subsidiary impacted by this communication.

I can understand the possibility of a requirement in IT, I work in finance team in a team so cover would be available all days expect weekends and public holidays. While on leave a colleague would be able to assist. We are also a support unit to the company rather time sensitive operation critical unit. I have no problem with receiving calls on urgent issues.

I'm concerned that if I can't respectively fight my corner on this one that it will be a expectation to have laptop with me at all times and mirroring the culture of 24/7 work culture of my middle eastern colleagues.

Plus next holiday is my honeymoon, whipping out the laptop over the champers not very romantic!

wexie

Lainey_b01 wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. I report into a middle eastern location and we are the only EU subsidiary impacted by this communication.

I can understand the possibility of a requirement in IT, I work in finance team in a team so cover would be available all days expect weekends and public holidays. While on leave a colleague would be able to assist. We are also a support unit to the company rather time sensitive operation critical unit. I have no problem with receiving calls on urgent issues.

I'm concerned that if I can't respectively fight my corner on this one that it will be a expectation to have laptop with me at all times and mirroring the culture of 24/7 work culture of my middle eastern colleagues.

Plus next holiday is my honeymoon, whipping out the laptop over the champers not very romantic!

Could you try to compromise and say you're willing to bring your laptop so you'll have it with you in case it's needed and they can ring you in a real emergency?

Also, I would definitely make a point of telling them you're happy to be available normally (if you are that is) but considering the backup in place you would very much appreciate an exception to be made for your honeymoon....

uck51js9zml2yt

You are entitled to rest periods by law. Holidays come under this. Having to work while on a legal rest period would break the law in my opinion.
You could contact Nera for an official opinion.

Stheno

Laura Shrilling Pedometer wrote: »

You are entitled to rest periods by law. Holidays come under this. Having to work while on a legal rest period would break the law in my opinion.
You could contact Nera for an official opinion.

I think this is the best approach tbh, it's not covered by law, and it's far too widespread a practice that it's implicit that you will be available.

I'm covering for my boss next week, and one of the areas covered is "Call me if you need to", now I'll avoid it if at all possible.

scallywaggles

Ask them to contact you by phone given that it is your honeymoon. You'd have to check your contract otherwise, in some companies in the UK it is mandatory to take 2 weeks annual leave without any contact with the office, if you do check your emails etc you are subject to disciplinary proceedings, however this should be stated in your contract. Up to you in the end, what's more important to you your job or your life outside of it?

Stheno

scallywaggles wrote: »

Ask them to contact you by phone given that it is your honeymoon. You'd have to check your contract otherwise, in some companies in the UK it is mandatory to take 2 weeks annual leave without any contact with the office, if you do check your emails etc you are subject to disciplinary proceedings, however this should be stated in your contract. Up to you in the end, what's more important to you your job or your life outside of it?

Can you quote a law on that? It sounds more like company policy.

Here it is illegal not to get a min. of two weeks unbroken leave, nothing about being contacted though.

I know in some financial organisations here there is a two weeks rule with no contact, but that's for compliance purposes, not Annual leave rights.

wexie

Stheno wrote: »

Here it is illegal not to get a min. of two weeks unbroken leave, nothing about being contacted though.
.

Really? That's certainly not being enforced where I work, as a matter of fact in many cases it's actively discouraged.

Murray007

I have worked for a hard nosed large irish private company at a senior management level and although they never said to bring the laptop and check it, the gave appreciation verbally that that I did and I knew at my level it was expected (in that company, a 365 policy was mentioned without being defined) however they did not issue a documented dictate that I would work on hols. Even then I recorded work time and took it as extra days when I came back without quibble. That is illegal, it's late now so I am not going to try and look it up but google employee leave rights.

My current employer which is a large multi national, only a catastrophic issue would warrant even the MD or board being called upon on leave, no one else.

In summary, it's not on.

partyguinness

Murray007 wrote: »

I have worked for a hard nosed large irish private company at a senior management level and although they never said to bring the laptop and check it, the gave appreciation verbally that that I did and I knew at my level it was expected (in that company, a 365 policy was mentioned without being defined) however they did not issue a documented dictate that I would work on hols. Even then I recorded work time and took it as extra days when I came back without quibble. That is illegal, it's late now so I am not going to try and look it up but google employee leave rights.

My current employer which is a large multi national, only a catastrophic issue would warrant even the MD or board being called upon on leave, no one else.

In summary, it's not on.

That's the difficulty here. A lot of these companies have nods and winks and everyone knows what is expected i.e. bring your laptop, work through lunch. This macho culture that everyone must buy into.

Personally it's not on and you are in a difficcult position. What do you do? Say no and the implied risk to your career.

Why not take the laptop but it gets 'broken' or 'lost' in transit? See how that works...that is prob what I would do.

I think a Employment Appeal Tribunal (and I do have experience in this area) would side with ther OP on this but who wants to get tp that position!!

dudara

I work for a global firm with over 200,000 employees in a middle-senior management position. Our clients are also multinationals. I leave the laptop at home when on holidays. I turn off work mail on my iPhone. I will give my job every hour while working, but annual leave is annual leave. I arranged to take that leave with due notice , and I have the expectation that my reporting teams & upper management will continue without me.

I recently received an OOO from a European colleague. It made me laugh.

"Please be advised that I am on annual leave until August 1st. If your query is urgent, please resend it to me on August 1st"

partyguinness

My business partner just came back from two days off and we both laughed that it's just not worth it...lol. Switching off and then on again is just not worth it. But we would not expect the support staff to do this. TBH we would have to be totally self absorbed not to foresee the damage to moral this type of policy would have on staff. It's ok for us as we run the place and our choice.

I have taken 2 days off this calendar year with plenty of 10-12 days in a row...check emails 24/7 although I have a policy of not replying to clients outside business hours..learned that mistake the hard way. I will reply to colleagues though.

I just work my ass off even harder coming up to annual leave to make sure every client knows and then just trust the staff to get on with it. Guess what..the place has not burned down yet while I am away...

wexie

partyguinness wrote: »

My business partner just came back from two days off and we both laughed that it's just not worth it...lol. Switching off and then on again is just not worth it.

Work extra hard to get ready before holidays, then worry about what's going on while you're on holidays and then work extra hard after to catch up from having been on holidays.

Something very wrong with that picture isn't there?

:(:(

partyguinness

wexie wrote: »

Work extra hard to get ready before holidays, then worry about what's going on while you're on holidays and then work extra hard after to catch up from having been on holidays.

Something very wrong with that picture isn't there?

:(:(

Yes very much so but that's the nature of the beast. My father was self-employed with staff and it was/is all consuming for him and as I grew up with it, I don't know any different. The last holiday he took was in 1996 and he came back from 2 weeks in Spain a week early as he just couldnt relax...no emails or Blackberries then although he had a mobile. Actually booked a flight back on his own. Left my mother and siblings there...:eek:

Bepolite

dudara wrote: »

"Please be advised that I am on annual leave until August 1st. If your query is urgent, please resend it to me on August 1st"

And yet you're still on boards

CIARAN_BOYLE

At the end of the day if they let you go over it well you have a golde ticket to the eat. On the other hand is it worth the fuss and risk to defy them?

dudara

Bepolite wrote: »

And yet you're still on boards

It wasn't me, it was a colleague.

Lainey_b01

Hi all, this was an email sent by MD to all team members not just me. I feel that this written communication is setting the requirement to bring laptop on annual leave into policy. I think this is exploitative. Lugging the laptop on holidays as an exceptional situation is one thing but every holiday from it not on, especially as fellow team members can support in absence of others.

The J Stands for Jay

Would you be expected to pay the additional baggage fees if bringing a laptop meant you were over limits? I've had trips where i've only just been underweight. An extra bag for the laptop would've likely meant a charge.

_Brian

OP is on danger of capping his career with this company if he calls in an outside body or just refuses to bring his laptop.
These type if managers expect this and will likely be quite put out by a blank refusal.
I've seen managers deny employees pay raises and promotions year on year because the employee refused to come in for work on his rostered day off although he had already worked in excess of 50 hours. The manager never let this go, wen I left five years after the event he was still blocking this employees progress. This is how these people work.

circadian

I would approach it by saying that it's annual leave, there are others in place covering and that it is totally unacceptable to dictate what you can or can't do on your time off.

Other option is to go along with it and search for a position elsewhere on your return, if at all possible. It doesn't sound like a great environment to be in.

RedXIV

Maybe you could warn them that you will do a lot of drinking on this holiday, and then reply to a late night email with atrocious spelling and grammatical errors, maybe even a few jokes and they may get the hint that having people work on time they've scheduled to do what they want could actually cost the company more than they think.

Would not recommend you send this to a client, keep it internal

tinkerbell

Telling you to bring a laptop while on annual leave is taking the piss. It's one thing taking a Blackberry on holidays (which I also don't agree with but at least it's small and portable) but a laptop - hell no. There has to be some employment law against that. If not, I'd have no problem telling him that I would not be bringing work on holidays with me, especially on honeymoon.

I'd also start looking for another job.

Mrs OBumble

RedXIV wrote: »

Maybe you could warn them that you will do a lot of drinking on this holiday, and then reply to a late night email with atrocious spelling and grammatical errors, maybe even a few jokes and they may get the hint that having people work on time they've scheduled to do what they want could actually cost the company more than they think.

Not a recommended approach if your manager is based in a Middle East location.

TimeToShine

tinkerbell wrote: »

Telling you to bring a laptop while on annual leave is taking the piss. It's one thing taking a Blackberry on holidays (which I also don't agree with but at least it's small and portable) but a laptop - hell no. There has to be some employment law against that. If not, I'd have no problem telling him that I would not be bringing work on holidays with me, especially on honeymoon.

I'd also start looking for another job.

Talk about throwing your toys out of the pram. Why doesn't he just bring the laptop home and leave it there? "I had no access to Wi-Fi" - problem solved.

drumswan

TimeToShine wrote: »

Talk about throwing your toys out of the pram. Why doesn't he just bring the laptop home and leave it there? "I had no access to Wi-Fi" - problem solved.

And if the company decides to supply a 3g dongle?

How about instead of taking the passive aggressive/lying approach, OP has a frank discussion with his boss to set boundaries. Thats the professional approach.

TimeToShine

drumswan wrote: »

And if the company decides to supply a 3g dongle?

How about instead of taking the passive aggressive/lying approach, OP has a frank discussion with his boss to set boundaries. Thats the professional approach.

They won't, but if you think this is worth leaving a job over you're crazy. I agree with you in that he has every right to have a discussion with his boss but telling him to start looking for another job is overkill.

Squatman

TimeToShine wrote: »

They won't, but if you think this is worth leaving a job over you're crazy. I agree with you in that he has every right to have a discussion with his boss but telling him to start looking for another job is overkill.

Might not be. Having a job isnt the be all and end all of happiness.

OP given the drawbacks mentioned above, what are the perks of your job?
How many hours a weeks do you work, how senior are you, and how much more above the industrial average are you being paid?

calendarqueen

I think it is probably worth someone having a chat with this person and letting him know that this is not acceptable practice in Ireland and that his sending such an e-mail could be in breach of a host of employment laws and he that really, its probably not necessary in the circumstances. I would suggest the most senior person in the Irish team is best placed to do this.

Larbre34

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not a recommended approach if your manager is based in a Middle East location.

I wouldn't be changing my culture for anyone else, if he frowns upon the way things are done in Ireland then its his problem, not the Irish staff.

This whole globalisation of corporations and communications has brought on huge negative effects for ordinary staff. My brother-in-law is in the far east and has to be available in the middle of the night twice a week to listen in on some conference call of his executive in London talking bull5h17 to the rest of the world, meaning he has poor quality rest two nights of his working week.

Other relatives in America sit in their offices 60+ hours a week just to be seen to be there and get about 12 days of leave at middle to senior level.

Workers in these countries scoff at the Irish who work hard and play hard, putting in the hours when need and enjoying life when not. Yet we should remind them of our growth rates and productivity and reflect it back on them that maybe their model of working is the wrong one.

Laptop on holidays? Show me the money, or not on your life.

Maximus Alexander

Where I would I'd normally be happy to take a call on an urgent issue if I was on annual leave, but that's primarily because I know I'd only be contacted as a last resort. It happens from time to time, but it's usually something that I can give direction on rather than being asked to do any actual work.

If it was expected that I log on via laptop as a matter of course during leave, I wouldn't be happy about that at all. I'm not sure if you're protected by law or not, but if that's the culture of the company and you're not happy about it, I'd strongly consider looking for another job. Most places aren't like that. At all.

musicfan1ie

Hi OP,

You could just say no or you could agree to their request. But, caveat that you're holidays are busy - 3/4 days touring with a company, hiking some trails/mountains, camping with no wifi, off to a family wedding/celebration etc. so your "free" time to check emails is limited. But, obviously, you will try your best!!

They'll get the hint that you're busy in time, without having a showdown. Maybe as a token gesture after about 4/5 days respond to some emails to show that you checked your emails.

So in future, just make sure they know about your hectic holidays and you could even joke that you came back to work for a break!!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mrs OBumble

Larbre34 wrote: »

This whole globalisation of corporations and communications has brought on huge negative effects for ordinary staff.

On the other hand, this is the first generation of Irish people who have been able to work overseas while still living in their own country.

Yes, this comes at a price. But would you really rather have emigrated?

RebelButtMunch

Arrange to call your boss on day 1 of your vacation to verify connectivity. Then he can call you in an emergency otherwise leave the laptop off.

Boskowski

Totally out of order IMO. A day where I'm checkin my emails is not a holiday. What if something comes up? Am I expected to be sober and ready for action at all times too then? When you think it through right to the end it's totally ridiculous and I wouldn't accept it. Period. Not unless I'm getting paid upwards of 120k anyway.

The deal is I'm selling you some of my time and brainpower. I'm not selling you my life.

listermint

Hi OP.

Do you have a work phone with email access?

If not request that.

leave the laptop at home. I never bring my work laptop if i have prearranged holidays. But i am however contactable on the phone and check the emails every now and then.

Laptop however no way!.


I wouldnt bother responding to him tbh if you have the phone. Just leave the laptop at home. Its ridiculous to set that sort of expectation on somebody.

JDxtra

Checking email on holidays will have you thinking about work. Defeats the purpose of the holiday in my opinion.

Stone Deaf 4evr

The new Ikea ad puts it brilliantly. something along the lines of "checking your email in bed, is like having the boss in the room with you"

Theres more to life than work. that being said, I wouldnt have a meltdown if I got a call out of the blue on my private phone in the event of an emergency, as I know it'd literally be just that. expecting you to take a laptop implies that you should be compiling reports or something.

InReality

So what happens after you check your email ? What can you do when your on holidays ? Would you be expected to reply or do some work on an issue?
If they have a way of contacting you in an emergency that should be enough.
My bottom line would be that I wouldn't check email on holiday - It would not be a break at all for me..

Is the guy who told you your direct boss ?
Ideally you'd need to have a frank person to person with your direct boss about their expectations

grumpydwarf

I realised it was time to change jobs when I got screamed at on the phone during an 'intimate exam'.

As another poster has said, your employer has purchased your expertise and SOME of your time - they didn't buy your life. However it's a good idea to have another opportunity in the pipeline in case they play games when you suggest they should be more reasonable.

Dyr

Pretty sure this would breach the two week holiday rule, which is why this companies HR dept won't issue a diktat like that. Whether you want to comply with a request that breaches employment law is up to you. Are you happy to be on call 24 hours for the rest of your time with this lot?

Lainey_b01

Hi all, thanks for all the comments, very aware need to thread carefully on this from career progression point of view. Won't be making formal complaints externally. I'm certainly not giving up job because of one persons unreasonable request.

I'm certainly not getting paid enough to be expected to log in over holidays. That's the killer for me, if it's an emergency fine but the fact that it's expected that I would be logging on that grates me. There is no way I'm going to suggest work phone, that's would mean I'd be contactable 24/7 all days of year, at least the laptop can't come to the beach with me on my honeymoon!

Person who issues the communication is in Dublin next week so have decided to have an chat face to face on the issue. Sounding out colleagues and higher level management in interim.

Again thanks for the comments.

Ps - since when is Lainey a dude! LoL

CatFromHue

Would a laptop, and so a laptop bag, not be another checked in bag you have to pay for?