Multiple suckling profitable?

Sam Kade

With quotas going next year and single suckling breaking even would multiple suckling be more profitable. A dairy cow milking 6 gallons a day at peak could rear 4 calves for 6 months. If you had hex and aax bull calves they could gain up to 1.1 kg/day that's 238kg at weaning. Selling them in November would add an extra 100 kg and only a small number of cows to carry over the winter. The only problem would be the low stocking rate in spring.

farawaygrass

a friend done it this year. think he is rearing two batch of calves. would the quality of milk after say 3-4 months be good enough for a 1-2 week old calf i wonder? seems to work for him, although you are tied to time just like the dairy men. calves get used to their times and they'll really shout about it if your late!

greysides

Won't comment on the finances, the problems I would see with it are that it depends a lot of having the right cow and the work involved in getting calves to suck.

It suited the previous generation of small farmers with quiet, well-handled cows and a bit of time on their hands.

tomwaterford

you would imagine it would be the logical step for small farmers who don't have outside work....if its anything like sheep...surly the more calves you sell....the better chance of more profit??

Sam Kade

farawaygrass wrote: »

a friend done it this year. think he is rearing two batch of calves. would the quality of milk after say 3-4 months be good enough for a 1-2 week old calf i wonder? seems to work for him, although you are tied to time just like the dairy men. calves get used to their times and they'll really shout about it if your late!

He lets the calves in to drink the cows twice a day I was thinking more like getting the cows used to the calves and letting them all together on grass. There would be a bit of work getting the cows to let them drink in the start but when they all get used to it things would run smoothly.

Sam Kade

tomwaterford wrote: »

you would imagine it would be the logical step for small farmers who don't have outside work....if its anything like sheep...surly the more calves you sell....the better chance of more profit??

If you could sell 4 350-400kg weanlings off every cow and the cow not draining the system either unlike single suckling you'd imagine that you could have a reasonable profit.

onyerbikepat

We did it here about 30 years ago. Father was all set to get out of dairying when we went down with TB. Herd locked up so we bought in calves for the extra milk. Mad from what I remember, with calves drinking every cow they could.
If I remember right it was next to impossible to get cows back in calf, the suckling effect plus the big energy draw on the cows meant heats very hard to pick up. Once cows were used to the extra calves, we let them off to fend for themselves outside.
Maybe no harm seperate them for twice a day feeding until they come on heat.
Funny thing I do remember though was, you would see the cow only licking their own calves even though they might have one or two extra under them.

Sam Kade

onyerbikepat wrote: »

We did it here about 30 years ago. Father was all set to get out of dairying when we went down with TB. Herd locked up so we bought in calves for the extra milk. Mad from what I remember, with calves drinking every cow they could.
If I remember right it was next to impossible to get cows back in calf, the suckling effect plus the big energy draw on the cows meant heats very hard to pick up. Once cows were used to the extra calves, we let them off to fend for themselves outside.
Maybe no harm seperate them for twice a day feeding until they come on heat.
Funny thing I do remember though was, you would see the cow only licking their own calves even though they might have one or two extra under them.

But with the small number of cows you could forget about putting them incalf just buy in a new batch of cows every year and sell them dry. You would have no wintering either.

I did it with 2 calves under a cow worked alright. I had a cow with a surprise calf one December aa bull so I left him drinking her. He was still drinking her 2 years later when both of them went to the factory and he killed out at 429kg carcass weight. He never saw silage or meal all he had was milk and grass.

onyerbikepat

You'd want very quiet cows. Have a neighbour that still multible sucks cows and he was telling me he has one cow who won't stand for calves in the field. He has to put her in twice a day so she let them drink.
If you get good cows, then you'd probably like to keep them over the winter and try it again the following year.
Can't see why it wouln't be profitable if you got a good system going and get rid of any nuisance cows.

jfh

We have been at this for years, very time consuming, especially as some cows have to be baled up, others you'd have to stand with, calves getting mixed up but after a while you'd have a system going, might have 15 cows in a yard with over 30 calves.
Let in twice a day.
Made money on cheap friesen bulls, picked up for handy money.

Greengrass1

Is it that hard to let cows in for twice a day to calves? .if it means more money for two hrs work each day so be it is my IMO

farawaygrass

you would be very lucky if you got away with letting calves run with cows. might work with one but wouldnt work for a number of cows imo. doing it this year on a small basics, and one you get going it takes bout twenty min morning and eve. still have to stand with one cow or she'd kick the head off the 2 calves on her, and kinda corner one or she'd keep walking. calves and cows always seem to match up after inital commotion! but point i was maying, is alot of suckler farmers dont like the lifestyle of how dairy farmers are tied to the farm morning and eve, but if you dont mind that then it's worth it in my opion. also, never heard of it affecting cows going back in heat, opposite in fact. all cows here that are double sucked didnt repeat

Timmaay

farawaygrass wrote: »

but point i was maying, is alot of suckler farmers dont like the lifestyle of how dairy farmers are tied to the farm morning and eve, but if you dont mind that then it's worth it in my opion.

Agreed, in fact if you went to all that effort you'd be mad not to just put in a parlour and milk the cows given the much bigger returns. What do ya do days you are away, holidays etc? Will you have a person trained in who can let the calves in to the right cows etc?

Farmer Pudsey

Often wondered would it be a runner with buying dairy cull cows, not the real old one's but ones culled for high cell count etc. I imagine that these cows would be easy enough to put calves under. Carry 2-3 calves on cow depending on amount of milk. Let them off when settled. Then wean calves when it suits you or even one by one. You can either sell or continue rearing calves.

I think you would have to carry cows over winter and finish following year. You could run a bull with cows during summer and calf down any ones that get incalf and use them for a second year.

I often wondered if you had a shed with the old type stalls and split it into smaller sheds. Put cow's head in stall and have it boarded so she cannot smell her own calf and add 1-2 more. This is the way lambs were traditionally fostered and it worked if set up right.

Sam Kade

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Often wondered would it be a runner with buying dairy cull cows, not the real old one's but ones culled for high cell count etc. I imagine that these cows would be easy enough to put calves under. Carry 2-3 calves on cow depending on amount of milk. Let them off when settled. Then wean calves when it suits you or even one by one. You can either sell or continue rearing calves.

I think you would have to carry cows over winter and finish following year. You could run a bull with cows during summer and calf down any ones that get incalf and use them for a second year.

I often wondered if you had a shed with the old type stalls and split it into smaller sheds. Put cow's head in stall and have it boarded so she cannot smell her own calf and add 1-2 more. This is the way lambs were traditionally fostered and it worked if set up right.

I read somewhere about a farmer in Australia who rears 180 calves a year with 12 cows that's 15 calves per cow probably reared in 4-5 batches. He puts 5 calves under them when freshly calved feeding once a day 3 calves in the morning 2 in the evening and wean them around 2 months. Wouldn't work here with big numbers as the supply of calves wouldn't be great as the season progresses. I've heard of up to 25 calves reared from high yielding dairy cows.

You could make up a free standing crush for the cows so that the calves can drink.

rushvalley

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Often wondered would it be a runner with buying dairy cull cows, not the real old one's but ones culled for high cell count etc. I imagine that these cows would be easy enough to put calves under. Carry 2-3 calves on cow depending on amount of milk. Let them off when settled. Then wean calves when it suits you or even one by one. You can either sell or continue rearing calves.

I think you would have to carry cows over winter and finish following year. You could run a bull with cows during summer and calf down any ones that get incalf and use them for a second year.

I often wondered if you had a shed with the old type stalls and split it into smaller sheds. Put cow's head in stall and have it boarded so she cannot smell her own calf and add 1-2 more. This is the way lambs were traditionally fostered and it worked if set up right.

Ive been thinking about this exact same idea for a while. Then maybe hold onto some of the dairy cow's heifers as cows that should still have enough milk to rear 2 calves and that the cow's own calf would be better and a better chance of being the right colour = more valuable calf that would cover most of your production costs. Then the bought in calf would be your profit?

Feel free to pick holes in it. Just thinking out loud.

mike hilux

Hello

I was doing this for a couple of years when I took over the farm as there were a lot of high cell cows. I wanted to get extra heifers so decided to breed off them.

Basically I took note of the cows that weren't suitable for the tank and when they were calving I had to really watch them. When the calving bag protruded from the cow and she was definitely going to calf I went in with a bucket and punctured the bag into a bucket.

Them left the cow to herself and found two bull calves that had come from the dairy cows. I put these in a crate just outside the calving pen and slathered them with the fluid from the bucket.

When the cow calved I would make sure everything was all right and put my arm into the cow a few times just because I thought it might make her think she was having twins but I dint know if this works but sure you try anything.

If she calved a heifers I would take the heifer away for bucket rearing and take colostrum fRom the cow

Throw in the two substitute calves that smell like her own and maybe tie them to the back wall so they can't drain her completely if you still need colostrum.

Tie the afterberth to them(basically do everything to put her smell on them) I had this blue powder that I sprinkle on them that the cow liked the taste of and she would like it off me if I stood long enough for her. Once I was happy the cow took to the calves I threw them out the field and it used to work a treat.

The big thing is to be there to do all this. If you show up and she's calved and up licking then it can be hardship. I was ok because I was milking anyway so if it didnt work they went through the parlor.

I got 22 bull calves reared on 12 cows and sold each for an average of 800 at 12 months or so. I work that out at 1600 per cow. No meal only for weaning and through the winter at 1kg per head per day.

That's how it went for me.

onyerbikepat

Sounds like the way to go about it alright, Mike. What was the name of the blue powder?

Tyson Lannister

It's an awful lot of work though isn't it lads? Hardly a runner for lads with off farm employment I reckon.
Sometimes I wonder about how much difference the cow makes.
I remember last summer at testing I had my bucket fed AA bulls in with some of my suckler calves at testing. My suckler calves were so much bigger I thought they'd kill the others (all spring born). I kept them all for the winter and sold in March.
They were in the pen together for the winter and got the same feed. My suckler calves were off AAxbrfr cows and were U grade averaged 450 kgs at selling in March and sold for €900.
My bucket fed AA bulls reached 370kgs in March and sold for €780 average.
Now admittedly the bucket fed bulls ate a nice bit of meal all summer but in comparison to what the cow ate all year and AI etc. I couldn't see much point in having the cow around sadly... No point breeding decent cattle right now if you ask me unfortunately....
I know ye are looking at one cow to many calves, maybe that make sense but to me one cow to one calf doesn't add up.

mike hilux

I'll have to go looking for the bucket and I'll let you know the name. I always thought it was great when it worked but I was lucky that if it went wrong then they went through the parlor and the milk given to other calves.

The main thing is to be there at calving. Also I found a boarded up crate was good so that the calf was just outside the pen but the cow wasn't able to see it and that the cow has to ne quite enough to work with. Also helped when the calves are younger so that they still associated the cow with food. It's tuff if the calf is 2 months old and has been on the teet feeder since 3 days old.

I still found that some cows just won't play ball no matter what. And wish I could say that if (a) doesn't work then try (b) but all I can say is do everything every time because you don't have time for trial and error. If the cow realises somethings up then there may not be a second chance to form a bond between them and that's when you end up standing over them twice a day.

I could go on and on about it but you'll see yourself if you go ahead with it. No two situations will be the same and I often thought that if someone looked in over the gate and saw all the crap I was at just to trick this cow into taking these calves then they would think I lost the plot altogether.

But that hour or two of fooling was the difference between leaving them on their own in the field or marching them into a yard twice a day for nine months

Willfarman

We used to do that 20 years ago. Reared approx 60 calves on 25 cows. Balls of a racket. Pure drudgery. Scours. That time calves were bucket trained so would be as big a job trying to get them to suck as anything.
We let them in and out twice a day and I would say the bulling cow was far easier spot than when we went for single sucks.

keep going

Doing abit of it at the moment and would say anyone who says there istoo much work init should apply to the goverment for an artist job.with any sort of a setup its very easy to multisuck cows, all you need is a pen thatcan hold 3 calves and a gate thatvswings for letting the cows in and out.personally I would reckon that rearing 3 calves at peak and weaning and putting two moreonthen would make good use of the cow even though I myself am drying and fattening in a month as I have plenty stock already

Tyson Lannister

Well I wouldn't think it my place to tell any man he doesn't know what hard work is. I gave my opinion on the topic, not my opinion of other posters.

keep going wrote: »

Doing abit of it at the moment and would say anyone who says there istoo much work init should apply to the goverment for an artist job.with any sort of a setup its very easy to multisuck cows, all you need is a pen thatcan hold 3 calves and a gate thatvswings for letting the cows in and out.personally I would reckon that rearing 3 calves at peak and weaning and putting two moreonthen would make good use of the cow even though I myself am drying and fattening in a month as I have plenty stock already

keep going

Tyson Lannister wrote: »

Well I wouldn't think it my place to tell any man he doesn't know what hard work is. I gave my opinion on the topic, not my opinion of other posters.

To be fair I posted crudely and I apologise but given my experience so far it is very easy to manage.my cousin had trouble with cell count cows one year but did very well buying weaker calves in the mart the day he was selling his calves and giving them a month of sucking and selling on again, mind you this was a time when you could sell a good aa hd bull calf for 300 pounds plus not euro.he was making 100 pound a calf and more for a month of milk and it was there I saw the idea of the pen with 3 calves and suck7ng morning and evening and both cows and calves quickly get the hang of it.thats was 300 a month for the cow and she would hardly have made it milking but times are different now and there isnt scope for a margin in that type of game now never mind the desease problems

The man in red and black

Sam Kade wrote: »

With quotas going next year and single suckling breaking even would multiple suckling be more profitable. A dairy cow milking 6 gallons a day at peak could rear 4 calves for 6 months. If you had hex and aax bull calves they could gain up to 1.1 kg/day that's 238kg at weaning. Selling them in November would add an extra 100 kg and only a small number of cows to carry over the winter. The only problem would be the low stocking rate in spring.

The downside as someone pointed out would be the negative inhibition of suckling on the cows return to heat. This suckling inhibition is even more pronounced in dairy cows so using high cell count holsteins etc could make fertility a nightmare.

You'd have to restrict suckling at a point to try get them back in calf or they'll run very late. Depends how you would hope to run it. Letting them out with the cow in the field or a few sets of calves and the cow comes in to them.

We tried it at home a few years ago when we switched gradually from dairy to suckling and found the old dairy cows were fantastic mothers, would let anything suck, but they were very late calving and kept sliding further back.

Farmer Pudsey

The man in red and black wrote: »

The downside as someone pointed out would be the negative inhibition of suckling on the cows return to heat. This suckling inhibition is even more pronounced in dairy cows so using high cell count holsteins etc could make fertility a nightmare.

You'd have to restrict suckling at a point to try get them back in calf or they'll run very late. Depends how you would hope to run it. Letting them out with the cow in the field or a few sets of calves and the cow comes in to them.

We tried it at home a few years ago when we switched gradually from dairy to suckling and found the old dairy cows were fantastic mothers, would let anything suck, but they were very late calving and kept sliding further back.

TBH I thing multiple sucking is only a runner with cull dairy cows. I think it may be a runner post quota, cheap culls, cheap calves. Run a bull with them from may1st to june 31st. If you think it is worth it restrict calf access for 5-6 weeks. If you have to cull 50% of the cows each year it is not an issue.

Kevin the sheep

Was thinking of this as I work on a dairy farm and own a suckler farm why do people want to put cows back in calf why bother rear 12 calves per cow leave on four calves at a time for 3months two in morn two in evening simple once they get used to it then once Cow is done rearing keep for winter (just feed silage no meal) and let back to grass in spring will fatten in no time see it here then buy new cow to rear that years calves just MO

Farmer Pudsey

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

Was thinking of this as I work on a dairy farm and own a suckler farm why do people want to put cows back in calf why bother rear 12 calves per cow leave on four calves at a time for 3months two in morn two in evening simple once they get used to it then once Cow is done rearing keep for winter (just feed silage no meal) and let back to grass in spring will fatten in no time see it here then buy new cow to rear that years calves just MO

I be of the same opinion I even leave some calves on the cow after 3 months take off the stronger calves one by one. Wean everything by mid september. Let cow graze for autumn and house on silage. Most cows should finish by June.