The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

Oranage2

MOD Note Post #138

Just for the record here....

This topic is being monitored very closely, and there's several posts who seem to be approaching the line whereby there's going to be warnings issued and topic closed.

When the topic was opened, I let it go because, ultimately, Pool and United have the biggest sets of fans on the forum and the debate was obviously going to generate a lot of discussion. It started off civil, so grand. Once it stays that way, I think there's merits for such a topic.

But if it descends into bickering, personal shots or moves away from an actual debate on teams and transfers, and onto fans taking potshots at each other or "banter", we'll close the topic quickly.

Prove to us that you can have a civil debate here. Discuss posts and not posters. Please.
__________________





..Who will finish higher in the league?

It's the dominating issue in every bar, work place and internet forum across the country.

Both Liverpool and united fans are very confident of a top 4 finish, a quick survey I took shows that united fans are 96% sure of a top 4 finish and 49 % of those believe they'll make a title challenge.

Liverpool fans are slightly less confident with 80% believing they'll get top 4 and of that 22% percent believe they'll make a title push.

Statistics aside, each opposing fan believes they'll finish ahead of the other team.


So let's break it down:

United

Pros - New world class manager + plus two very promising strikers + no European football

Cons - 3 of there back 4 is gone, not sure how the midfield will perform



Liverpool

Pros - a lot of new signings with pl experience

Cons - extra European games, loss of a big player


Personally I can't decide, I wouldn't be surprised who finished above.

Gun to my head I'd go for united to finish ahead but It's really a coin toss.


Opinions please and try keep it friendly, poll to follow.

WesternZulu

Whichever set of fans wins this internet argument.

The_Kew_Tour

Liverpool.

They should be too strong for West Ham.

Paj

United.
Manager is a force, they've got a tonne of money and aren't finished spending it and they can attract players at the top level, unlike Liverpool at the moment. Once they get the fear factor back they'll be tough to stop.

The Moldy Gowl

Every man united fan is just hoping we finish above Southampton.
Our real rivals

Anyone

Which United are you talking about?

Imo, top 4 next year will be made up of:

Liverpool
Man City
Chelsea
Man Utd

IncognitoMan

Cop out by the OP saying they can't decide who will finish higher.

You started the thread now get off the fence baby

Liam McPoyle

I think United will finish in the top 4 at the expense of LFC.

The main reason is the Suarez factor.

There is no way that is going to have anything but a negative effect on the team.

There were a number of occasions last season that he dragged them through by the scruff of the neck and without him, where are the 30 odd goals going to come from?

While I rate Sturridge very highly, he isnt going to make the impact that Suarez had.

Now of course, they could still pick up a world class player before the transfer window closes but of the players they have bought, none of them are particularly awe inspiring.

Plus I think the fact United dont have any European games this season will make a mahoosive difference too.

On paper, United would be favourites for a top 4 ahead of Liverpool but as I said, if they get a world class player or 2 then that may change.

As it stands though I think United are better placed to push for it.

Oranage2

Anyone wrote: »

Which United are you talking about?

Imo, top 4 next year will be made up of:

Liverpool
Man City
Chelsea
Man Utd

It's clearly Manchester united.

IncognitoMan wrote: »

Cop out by the OP saying they can't decide who will finish higher.

You started the thread now get off the fence baby

I did, please read the op again, I chose united.

IncognitoMan

Oranage2 wrote: »

It's clearly Manchester united.



I did, please read the op again, I chose united.

Apologies I got over excited

Anyway I think man utd will finish above Liverpool. Having van Gaal could be worth that extra couple of percent that gets us over the line in tricky games and hopefully we see the best from rvp again this year.

It's very hard to know how Liverpool will do while relying on sturridge for a full season even if the Remy deal goes through its hard to see them doing as well over 38 games without Suarez

Morzadec

Tough to call.

It wouldn't surprise me to see either team finish 6th or 7th.

It also wouldn't surprise me to see either team make a real push at the league.

Without being a boring fence-sitter it's just very, very difficult to predict how each team will end up.

How big a factor will Van Gaal be? Will he manage to get the players in to replace the defensive mainstays that have left? Will the age old midfield problem be sorted out? Can one man at the helm make a huge difference and turnaround the performances of some players who underperformed last season?

As for Liverpool - how will the new signings fit in? They can mostly be seen as somewhat risky (i.e. none of them are really established top class players). Will the likes of Markovic make an impact or is it too soon for him? Will the likes of Sterling and Sturridge suffer without Suarez attracting attention from defenders (as well as his assists)?

Any fan (United or Liverpool) who says they are very confident of finishing ahead of the other team is way off the mark imo. Too many unknowns and variables and to be honest it would be a good way of weeding out those clouded by fan-bias in your friend group, because the true answer is that it's very difficult to call with any degree of certainty.

Fescue

Morzadec wrote: »

Tough to call.

It wouldn't surprise me to see either team finish 6th or 7th.

It also wouldn't surprise me to see either team make a real push at the league.

Without being a boring fence-sitter it's just very, very difficult to predict how each team will end up.

How big a factor will Van Gaal be? Will he manage to get the players in to replace the defensive mainstays that have left? Will the age old midfield problem be sorted out? Can one man at the helm make a huge difference and turnaround the performances of some players who underperformed last season?

As for Liverpool - how will the new signings fit in? They can mostly be seen as somewhat risky (i.e. none of them are really established top class players). Will the likes of Markovic make an impact or is it too soon for him? Will the likes of Sterling and Sturridge suffer without Suarez attracting attention from defenders (as well as his assists)?

Any fan (United or Liverpool) who says they are very confident of finishing ahead of the other team is way off the mark imo. Too many unknowns and variables and to be honest it would be a good way of weeding out those clouded by fan-bias in your friend group, because the true answer is that it's very difficult to call with any degree of certainty.

I agree with that for the most part. It's very difficult to know. I think there is an assumption that Liverpool without Suarez will fall down the league and that Van Gaal is an instant remedy to Uniteds woes. I don't either will have as big an impact as that. What may be telling is Liverpools involvement in Europe. We have seen teams struggle to cope with this, especially when they are relative newcomers.

MagicIRL

United have gained Van Gaal but lost Bébé. Our hopes of finishing top 4 have gone completely.

Donnielighto

If sturridge can perform to the same level as last year that will be a big boon for pool, if not then I can see defensive issue being a problem for them.

Utd is too much of an unknown due to the level of flux this summer.


This is from april but it shows that up till that point sturridge was pretty clutch and performing better in terms of assists and goals than suarez when it mattered. I saw another one that I can't find now where they showed the differences at points where clubss were losing/drawing or winning.

Edit: link
http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/04/why-sturridge-may-be-more-important-to-liverpool-than-suarez-and-arsenals-problems/

Will I Amnt

I'll wait until after transfer deadline day to even hazard a guess at that.

GavRedKing

I reckon Chelsea will finish higher than both. :pac:

bucketybuck

Liverpool are actually irrelevant in this question, its all about what United do.

At this point United have, amazingly, still not fixed the obvious gaping holes in their squad. Herrara is a welcome addition but even with him their midfield remains at a shockingly poor level. Their defense has been gutted and is in bad need of reinforcement, and their attack is fine but can't function in front of that abortion of a midfield.

If United finally sort their shit out and get in some proper players they will finish top four. If LVG thinks he can muddle through with what he has then he is in for a rude awakening.

If United don't get top four Liverpool may well take that spot, but they won't get near to City or Chelsea.

BMMachine

as a Liverpool fan, Im going to say Utd.

1st/2nd - chelski and citeh
3rd - united
4th - liverpool

hard to say that though, its not like arsenal have gotten weaker the top 5/6 teams are just so strong. I also think the English representation will do a lot better in the CL this year

Rayne Wooney

Liverpool have the best keeper in the league Mig the merciless, are buying the best CB in the league Dejan "better than Hummels" Lovren, the best midfield duo in Pogba and Vidal, the best FM wonder kid Lazar and the best striker not named, RVP or Rooney, Sturridge. They will win the league, United are midtable irrelevance.


Serious answer as it stands I think it's a coin toss. Both teams in interesting places, Liverpool missing out on top 4 could set them back 3 or 4 years IMO, losing the CL and not having as much money as the other 4 would leave them struggling to buy quality players again, if United miss out it's two seasons out and the club would go into panic mode. I do think it will be one of them who misses out.

If United go out and buy 2 or 3 top quality players which they should be doing, I think it would tip the scales in their favour. Still a lot of time left in the window.

Fescue

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Liverpool have the best keeper in the league Mig the merciless, are buying the best CB in the league Dejan "better than Hummels" Lovren, the best midfield duo in Pogba and Vidal, the best FM wonder kid Lazar and the best striker not named, RVP or Rooney, Sturridge. They will win the league, United are midtable irrelevance.


Serious answer as it stands I think it's a coin toss. Both teams in interesting places, Liverpool missing out on top 4 could set them back 3 or 4 years IMO, losing the CL and not having as much money as the other 4 would leave them struggling to buy quality players again, if United miss out it's two seasons out and the club would go into panic mode. I do think it will be one of them who misses out.

If United go out and buy 2 or 3 top quality players which they should be doing, I think it would tip the scales in their favour. Still a lot of time left in the window.

I'm not sure about that. United have LVG who as far as I'm aware has never lost a football match.

Dempsey

Fescue wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. United have LVG who as far as I'm aware has never lost a football match.

He must have the ability to edit his own wikipedia page aswell! :pac:

Rayne Wooney

Fescue wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. United have LVG who as far as I'm aware has never lost a football match.

He hasn't for United anyway

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Liverpool have the best keeper in the league Mig the merciless, are buying the best CB in the league Dejan "better than Hummels" Lovren, the best midfield duo in Pogba and Vidal, the best FM wonder kid Lazar and the best striker not named, RVP or Rooney, Sturridge. They will win the league, United are midtable irrelevance.


.

Much the same nonsense in the utd thread so that part of your post is pretty pointless. For me it's too early to give an answer it's fair to assume utd will be a lot better a lot are assuming Liverpool will be worse that's not as clear cut. LVG looking to play 3412 is a good move as it gets the best out of his 3 attacking players. Be interesting to see who both end up signing utd could do with a midfielder centre back and right sided player. Liverpool need atleast one full back and a centre back. Both could end up in the top 4 come the end of the season but wouldn't expect either team to challenge for the title.

Liam O

Arsenal are far better than Liverpool as it stands imo, the putting down of them by certain posters is bordering on pathetic at this stage. Liverpool will be the great unknown this season imo. I expect big things from Van Gaal and United though my view at the moment is clouded by a brilliant display against poor opposition, it has alleviated a lot of my fears about Van Gaal being able to instill a winning mentality in this United team. I think City will be the underperformers this season but that's based on nothing other than a feeling Yaya will have another lazy season.

Fescue

Liam O wrote: »

Arsenal are far better than Liverpool as it stands imo, the putting down of them by certain posters is bordering on pathetic at this stage. Liverpool will be the great unknown this season imo. I expect big things from Van Gaal and United though my view at the moment is clouded by a brilliant display against poor opposition, it has alleviated a lot of my fears about Van Gaal being able to instill a winning mentality in this United team. I think City will be the underperformers this season but that's based on nothing other than a feeling Yaya will have another lazy season.

What is that based on? I can see an argument to say they might be slightly better but that is largely based on Suarez leaving and Sanchez arriving.

Do you think Liverpools multiple signings are going to have little impact this season?

Iused2likebusts

Liam O wrote: »

Arsenal are far better than Liverpool as it stands imo, the putting down of them by certain posters is bordering on pathetic at this stage. Liverpool will be the great unknown this season imo. I expect big things from Van Gaal and United though my view at the moment is clouded by a brilliant display against poor opposition, it has alleviated a lot of my fears about Van Gaal being able to instill a winning mentality in this United team. I think City will be the underperformers this season but that's based on nothing other than a feeling Yaya will have another lazy season.

Are Arsenal really getting put down are you not going a bit OTT here. BTW are Arsenal far better than Utd at this stage?

Morzadec

bucketybuck wrote: »

Liverpool are actually irrelevant in this question, its all about what United do.

At this point United have, amazingly, still not fixed the obvious gaping holes in their squad. Herrara is a welcome addition but even with him their midfield remains at a shockingly poor level. Their defense has been gutted and is in bad need of reinforcement, and their attack is fine but can't function in front of that abortion of a midfield.

If United finally sort their shit out and get in some proper players they will finish top four. If LVG thinks he can muddle through with what he has then he is in for a rude awakening.

If United don't get top four Liverpool may well take that spot, but they won't get near to City or Chelsea.

What??

If Liverpool reproduce their league form from last season then United are 90% not going to finish ahead of them.

If Liverpool come close to doing what they do last year and reach 80 points then it'd also be a tough ask for United.

How would Liverpool's form be irrelevant in this question? Unless you think that United sorting their shit out means they will be guaranteed over 90 points and United not sorting their shit out means they will get less than 70, then it Liverpool are definitely relevant in this question

Dempsey

Fescue wrote: »

What is that based on? I can see an argument to say they might be slightly better but that is largely based on Suarez leaving and Sanchez arriving.

Do you think Liverpools multiple signings are going to have little impact this season?

Liverpool have a heavier fixture schedule this season because of the UCL whilst Arsenal have a proven track record at dealing with it.

Liverpool are likely to pull a Spurs this year

Fescue

Dempsey wrote: »

Liverpool have a heavier fixture schedule this season because of the UCL whilst Arsenal have a proven track record at dealing with it.

Liverpool are likely to pull a Spurs this year

Finish 3 points worse off than the year before. I'll take that.

Rayne Wooney

Might throw some money on Jay Rodriguez FC beating Liverpool on the opening day, poetic irony in there somewhere

Some people really love to underestimate the effect of having/not having European football.

Getting knocked out of cups very early also benefited Liverpool last season

Liam O

Morzadec wrote: »

What??

If Liverpool reproduce their league form from last season then United are 90% not going to finish ahead of them.

If Liverpool come close to doing what they do last year and reach 80 points then it'd also be a tough ask for United.

How would Liverpool's form be irrelevant in this question? Unless you think that United sorting their shit out means they will be guaranteed over 90 points and United not sorting their shit out means they will get less than 70, then it Liverpool are definitely relevant in this question

Under 70 for United is one of the more unlikely things posted in this thread. Some ropey statistics being pulled out in this post too.

I'm firmly of the belief that if Walcott and Ramsey didn't get injured then Arsenal would have finished ahead of Liverpool last season for the people above. The fact many aren't including them in their top 4s is craziness. They have better players in every position than Liverpool bar Sturridge being better than Giroud and better than United everywhere other than strikers, goalkeeper and a wash at No.10. They should finish above both but I think squad wise United are closer to them than Liverpool who are miles ahead of United in terms of tactical discipline. That's something I expect LVG to change and make United superior to Liverpool the coming season.

Fescue

Liam O wrote: »

Under 70 for United is one of the more unlikely things posted in this thread. Some ropey statistics being pulled out in this post too.

I'm firmly of the belief that if Walcott and Ramsey didn't get injured then Arsenal would have finished ahead of Liverpool last season for the people above. The fact many aren't including them in their top 4s is craziness. They have better players in every position than Liverpool bar Sturridge being better than Giroud and better than United everywhere other than strikers, goalkeeper and a wash at No.10. They should finish above both but I think squad wise United are closer to them than Liverpool who are miles ahead of United in terms of tactical discipline. That's something I expect LVG to change and make United superior to Liverpool the coming season.

All of this seems predicated on Liverpool being significantly poorer this season compared to last. Despite spending over £100 million on players already. Is there even a small chance Liverpool might improve this season?

Augmerson

Why is there even a need for this thread?

Quandary

Fescue wrote: »

Is there even a small chance Liverpool might improve this season?

Ye were 2nd last season with Suarez, no major injuries, no cups to worry about etc...

Do you think Liverpool honestly have a chance at winning the league this year?

If Liverpool manage to come 2nd or better this year I will be completely shocked, and will(begrudgingly) tip my hat to Brendan Rogers genuinely being one of the best managers in the game.

Fescue

Quandary wrote: »

Ye were 2nd last season with Suarez, no major injuries, no cups to worry about etc...

Do you think Liverpool honestly have a chance at winning the league this year?

If Liverpool manage to come 2nd or better this year I will be completely shocked, and will(begrudgingly) tip my hat to Brendan Rogers genuinely being one of the best managers in the game.

When I talk about improvement, I mean as a team. That might not be enough to keep pace with Chelsea or City but it may make it difficult for Arsenal and United.

There seems to be a consensus that Liverpool will be worse this season despite spending such a large amount on new players.

Hangballlouie

Oranage2 wrote: »

..Who will finish higher in the league?

It's the dominating issue in every bar, work place and internet forum across the country.

Both Liverpool and united fans are very confident of a top 4 finish, a quick survey I took shows that united fans are 96% sure of a top 4 finish and 49 % of those believe they'll make a title challenge.

Liverpool fans are slightly less confident with 80% believing they'll get top 4 and of that 22% percent believe they'll make a title push.

Statistics aside, each opposing fan believes they'll finish ahead of the other team.

.

How many Utd fans and how many Liverpool fans took part in your survey?

Will I Amnt

Fescue wrote: »

When I talk about improvement, I mean as a team. That might not be enough to keep pace with Chelsea or City but it may make it difficult for Arsenal and United.

There seems to be a consensus that Liverpool will be worse this season despite spending such a large amount on new players.

I'd be more worried if they bought 2 proven world class players for that 100m rather than a gang of lads that could go one way or the other.
Not one of the players signed or as good as signed has me running scared. It could all turn out to be a master stroke but I'd prefer to be facing an 11 from that squad than last season's squad, purely based on the fact Suarez was in it.
There's still time to add those world class players if they will come so as I said earlier, I'll wait until the window shuts to make a prediction.

Marty McFly

A bit early to be stating since the window is still open.

But I had to pick now I'd say United will finish ahead of Liverpool.

Liverpool have lost there best player and for me if I was a Liverpool fan I'd be concerned by the quality of signings to be honest so far none are really improvements on what they already have or had. Lallana for me will be a flop.

United new proven manager two expensive but also exciting signings and have the financial muscle and reputation to bring in more top notch players.

Gavlor

It's not the big question though.

The big question amongst football fans is who will win the league.

Fairly small minded by both sets of reds if the season is determined by who finishes higher.

Will I Amnt

Gavlor wrote: »

It's not the big question though.

The big question amongst football fans is who will win the league.

Fairly small minded by both sets of reds if the season is determined by who finishes higher.

United just finished 7th and Liverpool haven't won a league in 20 odd years.

Gavlor

Will I Amnt wrote: »

United just finished 7th and Liverpool haven't won a league in 20 odd years.

So you're telling me that next season will be a success if utd finish ahead of liverpool?

Fescue

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I'd be more worried if they bought 2 proven world class players for that 100m rather than a gang of lads that could go one way or the other.
Not one of the players signed or as good as signed has me running scared. It could all turn out to be a master stroke but I'd prefer to be facing an 11 from that squad than last season's squad, purely based on the fact Suarez was in it.
There's still time to add those world class players if they will come so as I said earlier, I'll wait until the window shuts to make a prediction.

I guess that's one way of looking at it and if I was a United fan I'd hope that was the case.

Conversely, you could look at United and say they have lost their 4 most influential players. Spent £30 million on a 24 year old who still hasn't got a cap for Spain and is a total unkown quantity in the Premier League. Another £27 million on a left back. A manager with a mixed career in the last 15 years. As many failures as successes. Is that improvement?

Top top top question. I doubt many fans give a rattling fcuk. If Liverpool can secure CL again I actually couldn't care less if Utd finish above us. Obviously prefer if they don't didn't but wouldn't lose much sleep over it.

Surprised an Arsenal fan cares that much

Will I Amnt

Gavlor wrote: »

So you're telling me that next season will be a success if utd finish ahead of liverpool?

No, what made you think I meant that? I just don't think United will win the league, the higher they come after that the better obviously.

Gavlor

Gavlor wrote: »

So you're telling me that next season will be a success if utd finish ahead of liverpool?

Standards have lowered

Gavlor

Ye all sound like "bitter" evertonians to me

Will I Amnt

Fescue wrote: »

I guess that's one way of looking at it and if I was a United fan I'd hope that was the case.

Conversely, you could look at United and say they have lost their 4 most influential players. Spent £30 million on a 24 year old who still hasn't got a cap for Spain and is a total unkown quantity in the Premier League. Another £27 million on a left back. A manager with a mixed career in the last 15 years. As many failures as successes. Is that improvement?

Who are you classing as the most influential players? Bearing in mind the player they are now and not a few years ago...

And yes, it's a massive improvement on management and an actual centre mid has been signed. I'm a lot happier with United going into this season compared to what we had last, still expecting more signings too.

Rayne Wooney

Doubt any of Liverpool's buys so far will even make it into the first 11 for the Southampton game, last seasons team minus Suarez and add in Lovren

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Doubt any of Liverpool's buys so far will even make it into the first 11 for the Southampton game, last seasons team minus Suarez and add in Lovren

Makes no sense

Liam O

Fescue wrote: »

I guess that's one way of looking at it and if I was a United fan I'd hope that was the case.

Conversely, you could look at United and say they have lost their 4 most influential players. Spent £30 million on a 24 year old who still hasn't got a cap for Spain and is a total unkown quantity in the Premier League. Another £27 million on a left back. A manager with a mixed career in the last 15 years. As many failures as successes. Is that improvement?

Until very recently David De Gea didn't have a cap for Spain. Is that how players are judged now? When he gets named in their next squad it will all be good? Van Gaal has won league titles everywhere he's been and just came 3rd in the WC. If he's had more failures than success then I'd hate to think what you think of some other managers i.e. Liverpools one if that's the way you want to play...