Two TDs arrested at Shannon Airport

MarkR

From the Limerick Post website.

TWO Dáil deputies were arrested today while demanding to search US military aircraft at Shannon Airport, according to sources.

Independent TDs Mick Wallace and Clare Daly were arrested and taken to Shannon Garda Station before lunchtime.

According to anti-war activist Ed Horgan of Shannonwatch, the two were arrested on the tarmac where two military flights were standing.

Mr Horgan told the Limerick Post that the TDs were attempting to inspect a Hercules and a Boeing 747.

I wonder how they got as far as the tarmac? Cut through the fence, or from getting access by pretending to board another flight and detouring across the runway?

MarkR

Looks like they cut the fence. Little more information here.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-tds-arrested-at-shannon-airport-637078.html

Brennans Row

Yet another serious breach of security at the airport!

Time to debate Ireland’s neutrality / NATO membership in the Dail.

Kess73

Nice to see law abiding TDs.


Funny how Wallace and Daly are great to shout about others breaking the law, but it is ok for them to do so.

It does raise some serious questions about security at the airport, but it raises even bigger questions about the type of person that gets to be a TD these days.

dr.fuzzenstein

It also raises the question about Ireland not only condoning, but silently aiding rendition flights where "suspects" are being brought to countries that aren't too squeamish about torture.
We are only too happy to piss on the human rights of everyone else, as long as we can make a few bob ourselves.
Irish "neutrality" is definitely for sale to the right bidder for the right price.
A lot of people will be shouting for proof, but that is exactly the point.
The yanks have said "nothing to see on those planes, better turn around now Paddy and keep your trap shut if you know what's good for you!" and the authorities snapped to attention and answered with a resounding "Sir! Yes, Sir!" and promptly declared that there is nothing of note to be seen on those planes and the Americans have explained it all to us and it was all very plausible, so there is no need to ever search one of those planes again.
Of course moral courage and civil disobedience do not exist to a large degree in Ireland, we are happy to give out in the pub and park on double yellow lines to "stick it to the man", but to do anything that might get the neighbours talking, Jaysus, no!
The Irish like to portray an image of being rebels and having taken on the Brits and thrown them out of the country, but in reality will take any amount of crap, as long as their wage comes in on time.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

What would them two know about aircraft? I know she was a shop steward above in Dublin airport, but come on..!

dr.fuzzenstein

I think we forget:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_Airport
search for rendition

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/anger-at-rendition-flights-through-shannon-166249.html

http://www.amnesty.ie/content/rendition-flights

http://www.thejournal.ie/us-rendition-flight-aircraft-flew-to-shannon-airport-215372-Sep2011/

And for a laugh:
http://www.thejournal.ie/gilmore-accepts-us-assurance-of-no-rendition-flights-through-shannon-231876-Sep2011/

Is this still ongoing? Is Obama all soft and cuddly? We just don't know, Guantanamo is still open, what really goes on behind the scenes?
We are happy to turn a blind eye, so we can pretend it's all not happening, because, think of all that beautiful money!

locum-motion

I hope those two gob5hites are prosecuted and jailed.
Of course, they won't be.

Cookiemunster

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It also raises the question about Ireland not only condoning, but silently aiding rendition flights where "suspects" are being brought to countries that aren't too squeamish about torture.
We are only too happy to piss on the human rights of everyone else, as long as we can make a few bob ourselves.
Irish "neutrality" is definitely for sale to the right bidder for the right price.
A lot of people will be shouting for proof, but that is exactly the point.
The yanks have said "nothing to see on those planes, better turn around now Paddy and keep your trap shut if you know what's good for you!" and the authorities snapped to attention and answered with a resounding "Sir! Yes, Sir!" and promptly declared that there is nothing of note to be seen on those planes and the Americans have explained it all to us and it was all very plausible, so there is no need to ever search one of those planes again.
Of course moral courage and civil disobedience do not exist to a large degree in Ireland, we are happy to give out in the pub and park on double yellow lines to "stick it to the man", but to do anything that might get the neighbours talking, Jaysus, no!
The Irish like to portray an image of being rebels and having taken on the Brits and thrown them out of the country, but in reality will take any amount of crap, as long as their wage comes in on time.

Ireland isn't neutral, it's not mentioned anywhere in the constitution. In reality we're non aligned and have been allowing military aircraft of various countries to land for decades (something a neutral country wouldn't allow).

CptSternn

Fair play to them bringing the spotlight to this issue. Either we are a country that condones murdering women and children and supports torture, or we are not.

AngryHippie

We could look a lot closer to home on that one.

Mr. G

CptSternn wrote: »

Fair play to them bringing the spotlight to this issue. Either we are a country that condones murdering women and children and supports torture, or we are not.

Well said. We are supposed to be a neutral country so in my opinion, no military, except our own, should be allowed to use our airports.

Cookiemunster

Mr. G wrote: »

Well said. We are supposed to be a neutral country so in my opinion, no military, except our own, should be allowed to use our airports.

As I said above, we're not neutral, we're non aligned. We've been allowing foreign countries (not just the US) to use our airports for years. 35 countries used Shannon in the last year. I actually remember German Tornados in Shannon a number of years ago. If we were neutral, we'd allow no foreign military aircraft to land.

Dan_Solo

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Ireland isn't neutral, it's not mentioned anywhere in the constitution. In reality we're non aligned and have been allowing military aircraft of various countries to land for decades (something a neutral country wouldn't allow).

Don't we have "neutral observers" in Afghanistan? Neutrally observing from neutrally embedded positions within the not very neutral US army?

Kess73

CptSternn wrote: »

Fair play to them bringing the spotlight to this issue. Either we are a country that condones murdering women and children and supports torture, or we are not.

Yeah it is not as though either was in a position to raise the issue at government level.


Unlike the vast majority of people in the country, those two are in the priviliged position to be able to raise any such issues in the Dail.


I look forward to similar levels of interest in the Mid West from those two when things like infrastructure, employment and the like are on the table.

Smacks of attention seeking to me. Moreso when one considers how Wallace made a lot of noise about the Gardai in the Dail, yet when there was a vote on the very bill he wanted brought in, the man could not be bothered to turn up at the Dail to vote. Why? Because he does not go to work when the World Cup is on.

Yep a man that really follows through on the noise he makes alright.

Dan_Solo

Kess73 wrote: »

It does raise some serious questions about security at the airport, but it raises even bigger questions about the type of person that gets to be a TD these days.

Nope. The biggest question it still raises is why no foreign military aircraft are ever inspected when they are on Irish soil.

Dan_Solo

Kess73 wrote: »

I look forward to similar levels of interest in the Mid West from those two when things like infrastructure, employment and the like are on the table.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/search/?pid=299&pop=1#n4
Yeah, he's a total one issue guy that Wallace isn't he?
(not that I don't agree he's a bit of a looney)

glineli

These 2 clowns broke the law and should do the time.

Kess73

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.kildarestreet.com/search/?pid=299&pop=1#n4
Yeah, he's a total one issue guy that Wallace isn't he?
(not that I don't agree he's a bit of a looney)

Never said he was a one issue guy, but he does have form for going down a route that gets publicity for him and then not following up at all of the issues that he claimed were so important.


Him not turning up, because of the World Cup, for the vote on the very bill he was championing has me doubting the sincerity of his actions.

The cynic in me thinks that what happened in Shannon the other day was more a self serving act that a state serving one.


Funny thing is that if the history of Irish airports is looked into, including more recent times, then Shannon is not the only Irish airport that has had military aircraft touch it's runways.


I also disagree with how some of the "protests" are done. Illegally entering an airport is not something I would ever condone, and I do think that there are better ways to highlight issues, especially when those involved have direct access to the media and the Dail.

Geomy

Will they be dropped from the Dail ?

Is that the end of their salaries and pensions etc ?

Dan_Solo

Kess73 wrote: »

I also disagree with how some of the "protests" are done. Illegally entering an airport is not something I would ever condone, and I do think that there are better ways to highlight issues, especially when those involved have direct access to the media and the Dail.

Do you think this stunt (yeah, I'll call it that) has raised more or less publicity for this cause than if Mick Wallace had raised it in The Dail?

buck65

Fair play to them, no harm to shine a light on some issues like this.

ger664

The quality of intellect shown by our elected representatives is shown here. Who in gods name tries to covertly enter a foreign military plane using a high vis jacket to camouflage themselves with.

Dan_Solo

ger664 wrote: »

The quality of intellect shown by our elected representatives is shown here. Who in gods name tries to covertly enter a foreign military plane using a high vis jacket to camouflage themselves with.

Er, maybe, just maybe, they were hoping for some media exposure? Convoluted theory, I know...
Not that high vis would be all that unusual for Mick.

Mr. G

ger664 wrote: »

The quality of intellect shown by our elected representatives is shown here. Who in gods name tries to covertly enter a foreign military plane using a high vis jacket to camouflage themselves with.

They didn't even bring IDs, then at least it might be a bit believable :rolleyes:

Kess73

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Do you think this stunt (yeah, I'll call it that) has raised more or less publicity for this cause than if Mick Wallace had raised it in The Dail?

I think this stunt has drawn more publicity to Wallace and Daly than to anything else. There seem to be more people calling them clowns in the past day or so than there is public outcry over anything else.

The thing with raising it, and continuing to raise it, in the Dail is that it would be getting done in a setting where there would be some chance, no matter how small, of the issue getting looked into officially.


Breaking into an airport to "inspect" aircraft only serves to make the general public see you as a clown at best, or a danger at worst. Imo of course.


If a protest was the way to go, what was to stop Daly and Wallace organising a high profile protest outside the American Embassy? Surely they could have used their day job positions to ensure media coverage of such a protest. Or for them to do similar outside the gates of the Dail itself?

Just think what they did in Shannon was wrong, and that there were other routes that could have been followed that may have drawn more attention to what they claim to be protesting against than it would to who they were.

Kess73

ger664 wrote: »

The quality of intellect shown by our elected representatives is shown here. Who in gods name tries to covertly enter a foreign military plane using a high vis jacket to camouflage themselves with.

Would imagine that wearing a high vis vest on or near the runway would make you look more like an airport employee from a distance.

Clareman

Whatever about the debate about Ireland's neutrality and the use of our airports I would question the actions of the 2 people involved. Mr. Wallace taking the moral high ground for the country when he admitted to submitting false records to the Revenue in the past is a bit smart. Also, I don't remember voting for/electing either of these representatives, they aren't part of the government or a local representitive, surely they have no remit for being in Shannon other than self publicity.

I wonder if I took the idea that An Post was sending illegal stuff through the post (even though they say they aren't and the Minister in charge say they aren't) and decided to break in to the local sorting office would I be let off so easily?

Kess73

Clareman wrote: »

Whatever about the debate about Ireland's neutrality and the use of our airports I would question the actions of the 2 people involved. Mr. Wallace taking the moral high ground for the country when he admitted to submitting false records to the Revenue in the past is a bit smart. Also, I don't remember voting for/electing either of these representatives, they aren't part of the government or a local representitive, surely they have no remit for being in Shannon other than self publicity.

I wonder if I took the idea that An Post was sending illegal stuff through the post (even though they say they aren't and the Minister in charge say they aren't) and decided to break in to the local sorting office would I be let off so easily?

An Post are sending illegal stuff? That's me off down to Cork to break in so I can do an inspection.:D I'll be fine though because in this country you can break into private property, get caught and be released on the same day.

Clareman

Kess73 wrote: »

An Post are sending illegal stuff? That's me off down to Cork to break in so I can do an inspection.:D I'll be fine though because in this country you can break into private property, get caught and be released on the same day.

That's what they seem to be saying isn't it?

I reckon that the banks are doing stuff they shouldn't be doing either, or a pub is selling underage drink, or a garage is clocking cars, or a shop is illegal dumping. Oh yeah, and I'll go up to Dublin to check on all this.

CptSternn

Clareman wrote: »

I wonder if I took the idea that An Post was sending illegal stuff through the post (even though they say they aren't and the Minister in charge say they aren't) and decided to break in to the local sorting office would I be let off so easily?

If An Post were supporting the murder of innocent women and children and supporting torture of innocent people then I sure hope they would.

CptSternn

The issue has been raised in the Dail. A few times. I usually don't quote the Indo as its a total rag IMHO but they actually did a nice piece on this was it yesterday or today where they cited the number of times in the Dail it has come up and each time the Minister of Justice just hushed the whole thing saying they had been given a 'gentlemans agreement' by the US that those things were not happening. That was FF and now is FG both of which claim they have been given assurances, even though a warplane with an external gun landed here and the fact the call signs for the planes now publicly listed by multiple news sources as CIA rendition flights were not only spotted but pictures taken and their signs documented as landing here.

I wonder if the Americans would be as accommodating if we had Irish flights landing on American soil and told them to take our word we were not transporting anything they would have issue with, therefore don't search any Irish flights.

Mr. G

CptSternn wrote: »

The issue has been raised in the Dail. A few times. I usually don't quote the Indo as its a total rag IMHO but they actually did a nice piece on this was it yesterday or today where they cited the number of times in the Dail it has come up and each time the Minister of Justice just hushed the whole thing saying they had been given a 'gentlemans agreement' by the US that those things were not happening. That was FF and now is FG both of which claim they have been given assurances, even though a warplane with an external gun landed here and the fact the call signs for the planes now publicly listed by multiple news sources as CIA rendition flights were not only spotted but pictures taken and their signs documented as landing here.

I wonder if the Americans would be as accommodating if we had Irish flights landing on American soil and told them to take our word we were not transporting anything they would have issue with, therefore don't search any Irish flights.

Oh course the US would search it. I do feel that Ireland need to tighten security at our borders, especially due to the civil unrest in other parts of the world.

Anything in the Irish airspace can be searched by Irish law. If the Americans are not seeking permission to bring weapons into the country, that is dishonest and I would not allow it. These things are not as simple as they appear though.

CptSternn

http://www.thejournal.ie/human-rights-poland-echr-cia-1587354-Jul2014/

Poland found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights of facilitating torture. Guess what? It won't be long until our country is next.

Hey anyone remember when Poland said, no, the Americans aren't torturing people in a secret prison here? It sounded a lot like our government when it said, no, the Americans are not transporting people to be tortured through here.

Johnboy1951

CptSternn wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/human-rights-poland-echr-cia-1587354-Jul2014/

Poland found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights of facilitating torture. Guess what? It won't be long until our country is next.

Might be the best thing that could happen .... at least it would force something to be done!

Hey anyone remember when Poland said, no, the Americans aren't torturing people in a secret prison here? It sounded a lot like our government when it said, no, the Americans are not transporting people to be tortured through here.

Brennans Row

Shannon Airport security not a concern after TDs arrests (Live95fm)

The CEO of Shannon Airport says security levels at the airport are fully compliant with international standards.

Neil Pakey says they have not needed to review security arrangements following a breach by two independent TDs this week.

Mick Wallace and Clare Daly were arrested on the tarmac where they were attempting to inspect two US Military aircraft.

Mr Pakey has condemned their actions but says the airport security is not in question.

---

I would disagree with him and after listening to the interview regarding security compliance, he runs the danger of been complacent.

Because on one hand security is so tight for passengers boarding flights and then again it can be undermined by protestors breaching the perimeter fence and approach any aircraft as they please.

Cookiemunster

Brennans Row wrote: »

Shannon Airport security not a concern after TDs arrests (Live95fm)

The CEO of Shannon Airport says security levels at the airport are fully compliant with international standards.

Neil Pakey says they have not needed to review security arrangements following a breach by two independent TDs this week.

Mick Wallace and Clare Daly were arrested on the tarmac where they were attempting to inspect two US Military aircraft.

Mr Pakey has condemned their actions but says the airport security is not in question.

---

I would disagree with him and after listening to the interview regarding security compliance, he runs the danger of been complacent.

Because on one hand security is so tight for passengers boarding flights and then again it can be undermined by protestors breaching the perimeter fence and approach any aircraft as they please.

I know it's probably impractical to physically patrol the whole perimeter 24/7, but surely it's possible to have monitored cameras watching the fences. Especially on the Aeropsace side of the runway where all the incursions seem to occur.

Dan_Solo

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I know it's probably impractical to physically patrol the whole perimeter 24/7, but surely it's possible to have monitored cameras watching the fences. Especially on the Aeropsace side of the runway where all the incursions seem to occur.

They should monitor all the illegal activity going on inside the fence while they're at it.

Cookiemunster

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They should monitor all the illegal activity going on inside the fence while they're at it.

Trespassing on the airfield and crossing a live runway is both illegal and idiotically dangerous to themselves and others. There are plenty of other safer ways to protest and has already said on this thread, it was nothing more than a publicity stunt.

Dan_Solo

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Trespassing on the airfield and crossing a live runway is both illegal and idiotically dangerous to themselves and others. There are plenty of other safer ways to protest and has already said on this thread, it was nothing more than a publicity stunt.

None of which is connected to the point I was making.
Why did you quote me at all?

Cookiemunster

Dan_Solo wrote: »

None of which is connected to the point I was making.
Why did you quote me at all?

Why did you quote me with your theory about illegal activity at the airport when I was talking about preventing people trespassing at the airport? That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.

Dan_Solo

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.

Oh, they've been convicted already? Where was this, Guantanamo District Court?

CptSternn

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Why did you quote me with your theory about illegal activity at the airport when I was talking about preventing people trespassing at the airport? That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.

Dan beat me to it but you can't deem something illegal without a conviction. Innocent until proven guilty and all. Just look at the Pit Stop Ploughshares. They broke into the airport and destroyed a fighter jet (which was not supposed to be there) and their actions were deemed legal in court by a jury of 12.

The last thing the government wants to do is put these two in trial as there is a very good chance they will be let go and once again it will garnish international attention.

Cookiemunster

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh, they've been convicted already? Where was this, Guantanamo District Court?

CptSternn wrote: »

Dan beat me to it but you can't deem something illegal without a conviction. Innocent until proven guilty and all.

What are ye on about? You can't deem something illegal without a conviction? Things are illegal as deemed by law not by conviction. If I break the speed limit while driving then I've done something illegal, whether I'm convicted or not. In this situation it's illegal to trepass onto the airfield at Shannon airport. They HAVE done something illegal. We've all seen the pictures and neither of them deny doing it.

dr.fuzzenstein

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Why did you quote me with your theory about illegal activity at the airport when I was talking about preventing people trespassing at the airport? That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.

This thread is about inadequate security at Shannon airport?
Boy, are you on the wrong train.

Johnboy1951

The only thing that concerns me about this whole incident, is that it is necessary for such incidents to occur, to bring the present lack of security at our borders to light, and how we deal with such things as military aircraft landing without inspections ever taking place.

It should not be necessary for people to take extraordinary measures to highlight such things.

Whether those actions were illegal or not is a secondary consideration (for me) to the main point of those actions.

Mr. G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

This thread is about inadequate security at Shannon airport?
Boy, are you on the wrong train.

Just to clarify things, the thread title mentions this specific incident and the OP deals with the state of security at Shannon. Please stop bickering. Thanks

dr.fuzzenstein

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The only thing that concerns me about this whole incident, is that it is necessary for such incidents to occur, to bring the present lack of security at our borders to light, and how we deal with such things as military aircraft landing without inspections ever taking place.

It should not be necessary for people to take extraordinary measures to highlight such things.

Whether those actions were illegal or not is a secondary consideration (for me) to the main point of those actions.

It is not just a lack of security, but the Irish state saying "We don't care what goes on with those planes, guns, supplies, suspects being flown to dodgy countries to be tortured, just pay us and we'll look the other way".
And the vehement and almost angry defense of the same by some people in Ireland (in general, not just this thread) just goes to show the sort of passive-aggressive disregard of what goes on there.
People get angry when the truth gets pointed out, a particularly puzzling human trait.

knockon

I have been on a number of these "war planes" that people keep quoting. I worked for a number of years in SNN in maintenance and handling. Military have been using the airport since it opened over 70 years ago.
We all have an opinion on the rights and wrongs of allowing our airports to be used by any foreign military.
My own opinion is lots of these airlines in the past such as Evergreen, American Trans Air, Sun Country, World Airways etc provide a huge injection of money into the local economy. Omni International right now are spending a thousands of euro on crew accommodation in Limerick City. In 2003 World Airways spent over €100,000.00 on crew accommodation in Jury's Hotel in Limerick.
These war planes are Boeing 757, Md11's and are no different from the ones you use to fly to Malaga or New York. I don't really care if their side arms are in the hold of the aircraft on their way to or from the USA. We have armed US Federal Agents regularly in SNN under the US Air Marshall programme on US carriers to Newark, Chicago, New York and Philadelphia. These US agents are there to protect us(the passengers) against the number one terrorist threat which is Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who coincidentally are the same guys who may or may not have been renditioned through SNN.

It may not be PC to say it but I fail to understand why everyone is so concerned about a couple of guys who may or may not have been renditioned through the airport. Local economy, jobs and a strong airport future is my priority.

Johnboy1951

It may not be PC to say it but I fail to understand why everyone is so concerned about a couple of guys who may or may not have been renditioned through the airport. Local economy, jobs and a strong airport future is my priority.

.... and that to me is at the heart of the problem!

CptSternn

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What are ye on about? You can't deem something illegal without a conviction? Things are illegal as deemed by law not by conviction. If I break the speed limit while driving then I've done something illegal, whether I'm convicted or not. In this situation it's illegal to trepass onto the airfield at Shannon airport. They HAVE done something illegal. We've all seen the pictures and neither of them deny doing it.

You obviously are not well versed in law. Have you never heard of the statutory lawful excuse defence? It means you can break the law if you do so for a good reason.

Per your speeding analogy, if you had a sick child or found a child that has been injured on the side of the road, would you not take them in your car as fast as possible to the nearest hospital, speeding along the way? If you are stopped by Gards or caught on a Gatso you could apply this defence in court and your actions would be deemed legal all thanks to the statutory lawful excuse defence.

If you think a country is illegally trafficking people through an airport so they can be tortured and you attempt to draw attention to this there is not a court in Ireland that would convict you because of the statutory lawful excuse defence. It doesn't even matter if you are right about it or not, only that you believe you were doing the right thing when you committed the act.

Even better, if the prosecution wants to prove you were doing something illegal they first have to prove you were wrong, which means they have to search the planes. They have to prove you were wrong and you acted in bad faith or were just plain mental. Either way they can't do that without first searching the plane. As long as no searches are happening, there will be no case.