Ireland U20 2015 6 nations and junior world cup

irishbucsfan

Until there's a giant mass-relocation of the countries population then we're going to be pretty reliant on Leinster. It's up to Leinster not to waste the playing resources gifted to them.

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Until there's a giant mass-relocation of the countries population then we're going to be pretty reliant on Leinster. It's up to Leinster not to waste the playing resources gifted to them.

And Leinster aren't even getting most of their considerable resources as it is. Just have to look at clubs like Navan, Boyne etc. Potential of Navan rugby club is huge with their recent underage success.

kingofthekong

Are next years pack gunna be able to compete either? , i know theirs some good forwards in O'donnell, Porter , Deegan and Trayers but size is definatley going to be a problem again. If i remember correctly the Irish second rows of Claffey and O'connor are on the light side even more so than this years second rows

typhoony

i would say the problem is with Leinster not Munster, considering the number of underage players Leinster have at international level they should be dominating the Senior squads. Munster on the other hand do a great job of developing a smaller pool of youngster to the senior squads.

Not sure why this years team regressed on last years team, only thing I can think is lack of physical development and preparation. Also the AIL may not be good enough game time for the better younger players, Sam Arnold being the exception at seeing better quality gametime

Tox56

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And Leinster aren't even getting most of their considerable resources as it is. Just have to look at clubs like Navan, Boyne etc. Potential of Navan rugby club is huge with their recent underage success.

How are Leinster not getting the best of their resources? Half the 23 when the senior side won the 6 Nations vs Scotland were from Leinster. Navan contribute a load of players to the Leinster club sides

wise7

typhoony wrote: »

i would say the problem is with Leinster not Munster, considering the number of underage players Leinster have at international level they should be dominating the Senior squads. Munster on the other hand do a great job of developing a smaller pool of youngster to the senior squads.

Not sure why this years team regressed on last years team, only thing I can think is lack of physical development and preparation. Also the AIL may not be good enough game time for the better younger players, Sam Arnold being the exception at seeing better quality gametime

A lot of it has been said on here in different ways as to why we seem to fall short of getting into the sharp end of this Tournament. It is about:
1. not putting in the effort to observe enough of the emerging talent with the result that we consistently go to the JC with a squad too shallow in depth, which means the frontline players get played into the ground over the course of 5 games in 18 days - sheer madness and dangerous.
2. unlike the top 4 nations in this competition, the irish provinces and leinster in particular having a retarded policy of not giving young talent an opportunity to get even a limited amount of Pro 12 exposure until they are a couple of years or more past u-20's
3. Zero preparation as a squad prior to going to the JC. Again the top 4 or 5 in this Tournament spend at least 4 weeks in camp in preparation and with real game time. Most of the Irish squad do not play a game in the previous 8 weeks apart from some form of warm-up game in which some key players did not feature for more than 20/30 mins
In the end it is simple. If the iRFU consider the U-20's as an important step in the development of future senior international players then they should commit resources, energy and money to a proper programme. You cannot expect to get to a semi-final or a final at this level without that committment and focus.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

How are Leinster not getting the best of their resources? Half the 23 when the senior side won the 6 Nations vs Scotland were from Leinster. Navan contribute a load of players to the Leinster club sides

A lot of people would like to see a better path from underage club level to professional level. I can understand it having played at similar clubs, I don't think it's as optimal as it could be when it comes to identifying talent. It's not at all a bad system either but resources start to get a little stretched.

The Lost Sheep

kingofthekong wrote: »

Are next years pack gunna be able to compete either? i know theirs some good forwards in O'donnell, Porter, Deegan and Trayers but size is definatley going to be a problem again. If i remember correctly the Irish second rows of Claffey and O'connor are on the light side even more so than this years second rows

There is likes of James Ryan who is a big second row.. Hard to really say about next years pack until we see the 20s interpros and who's in contention for those squads considering so many of this years squad were of the year...

typhoony wrote: »

i would say the problem is with Leinster not Munster, considering the number of underage players Leinster have at international level they should be dominating the Senior squads. Munster on the other hand do a great job of developing a smaller pool of youngster to the senior squads.

Not sure why this years team regressed on last years team, only thing I can think is lack of physical development and preparation. Also the AIL may not be good enough game time for the better younger players, Sam Arnold being the exception at seeing better quality game-time

There is definitely issues with Munster. Very few guys breaking through to make it at 20s level especially in the same positions year on year..
AIL is good enough for most and those who can step up to B&I cup level generally play in it.

Tox56 wrote: »

How are Leinster not getting the best of their resources? Half the 23 when the senior side won the 6 Nations vs Scotland were from Leinster. Navan contribute a load of players to the Leinster club sides

There is as many playing club rugby but how often do we see top club players "having" to move to one of Blackrock/Clongowes etc...
Where that happens year on year shows to me Leinster could be doing a lot more to help the club game which is the biggest area of growth in the sport...

kingofthekong

yeah forgot about Ryan stupidly enough , hes one of the best second row prospects ive seen at age grade level we could have used him this year pity he was still in school

kingofthekong

highlights of wales game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z714ndwrZlg

Tox56

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There is as many playing club rugby but how often do we see top club players "having" to move to one of Blackrock/Clongowes etc...
Where that happens year on year shows to me Leinster could be doing a lot more to help the club game which is the biggest area of growth in the sport...

But is it a matter of them "having" to move, or it being too enticing an opportunity to pass up. Im not saying Leinster couldnt possibly do things better but ultimately the environment you get a place like Blackrock or Clongowes isnt something a club can realistically offer. If a kid wants a future as a professional, becoming essentially "full time" at a high quality school on a scholarship is going to be hugely tempting regardless of what Leinster do, and I dont think theres anything inherently wrong with it either.

The Lost Sheep

Tox56 wrote: »

But is it a matter of them "having" to move, or it being too enticing an opportunity to pass up. Im not saying Leinster couldnt possibly do things better but ultimately the environment you get a place like Blackrock or Clongowes isnt something a club can realistically offer. If a kid wants a future as a professional, becoming essentially "full time" at a high quality school on a scholarship is going to be hugely tempting regardless of what Leinster do, and I dont think theres anything inherently wrong with it either.

High quality schools at very high cost.... elitist argument. Not going to take thread off topic.
If a kid wants a future as a professional why should they have to be going to a school where fee's are 4/5k min for the one's you list above. How is there not something inherently wrong with a system where people see no problem with that. Scholarships or not. Those schools are out of price range of so many people across the country.

wise7

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

High quality schools at very high cost.... elitist argument. Not going to take thread off topic.
If a kid wants a future as a professional why should they have to be going to a school where fee's are 4/5k min for the one's you list above. How is there not something inherently wrong with a system where people see no problem with that. Scholarships or not. Those schools are out of price range of so many people across the country.

What is needed regardless is the right level of underage competitive matches in the build up to a competition and of course throughout the competition. With the odd exception the trend has been one of a wide gap between the top rugby schools and the rest. What is potentially needed and could be made work is for the provinces to develop a representative team or even two in each province, drawn from underage club players and with the right level of coaching provided FOC through salaried Development Officers, these teams should be allowed compete in the provincial schools league/cup competitions. That would be a good start.

The Lost Sheep

wise7 wrote: »

What is needed regardless is the right level of underage competitive matches in the build up to a competition and of course throughout the competition. With the odd exception the trend has been one of a wide gap between the top rugby schools and the rest. What is potentially needed and could be made work is for the provinces to develop a representative team or even two in each province, drawn from underage club players and with the right level of coaching provided through salaried Development Officers, these teams should be allowed compete in the provincial schools league/cup competitions. That would be a good start.

Definitely. Could see it done at junior level with the 5 regional sides that compete in u16 Shane Horgan Cup competing in the junior cup and then similar sides in the schools senior cup..

Tox56

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

High quality schools at very high cost.... elitist argument. Not going to take thread off topic.
If a kid wants a future as a professional why should they have to be going to a school where fee's are 4/5k min for the one's you list above. How is there not something inherently wrong with a system where people see no problem with that. Scholarships or not. Those schools are out of price range of so many people across the country.

I agree with you they shouldn't have to. But regardless of whether they have to or not, a lot of kids who are aspiring to become professional will do it anyway, because as I was saying those schools by their nature offer an environment clubs can't. What I'm saying I have no problem with is people chosing to do that on their own accord. Plenty have come through and are currently coming through the clubs system, maybe it could be utilised more but Leinster are identifying talent in these clubs and bringing them through the representative teams

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

I agree with you they shouldn't have to. But regardless of whether they have to or not, a lot of kids who are aspiring to become professional will do it anyway, because as I was saying those schools by their nature offer an environment clubs can't. What I'm saying I have no problem with is people chosing to do that on their own accord. Plenty have come through and are currently coming through the clubs system, maybe it could be utilised more but Leinster are identifying talent in these clubs and bringing them through the representative teams

Yes, but doing it and doing it efficiently are two different things. We're talking about why Leinster are not "getting the most" out of their resources. Not why they aren't using them at all. People will tell you that they could be doing a lot more. To be fair it's getting better all the time and we're seeing guys coming through now at a rate we didn't before, but that just highlights the previous inefficiency. There is still a fair bit more to go, it won't happen overnight though unless there's a sudden increase in funding from somewhere.

bradders90

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

High quality schools at very high cost.... elitist argument. Not going to take thread off topic.
If a kid wants a future as a professional why should they have to be going to a school where fee's are 4/5k min for the one's you list above. How is there not something inherently wrong with a system where people see no problem with that. Scholarships or not. Those schools are out of price range of so many people across the country.

Thats more of an argument about whether private schools are right or wrong, this is a forum for rugby.

Blackheath

Trying to get some positives from last nights game, the Irish scrum seemed to be get on top of the Welsh during the 2nd half of the match with the front row of Porter, McBurney and O'Donnell played the majority of the 2nd half together, with a try off coming from a scrum.

All 3 are eligible for next years tournament.

Hagz

I didn't realise McBurney was u19. That's some positive news. I expect himself and Hugo Kean will be the hookers next season.

Hagz

I'm hoping Jimmy O'Brien and Jake Howlett will play some part. Think both should be in academies.

FrannoFan

I'm surprised the obvious hasn't been discussed more. That Carolan isn't a coach of the same calibre of Mike ruddock. No shame in that-ruddock has a grand slam,years of experience as a head coach as well as plenty of experience of doing the under 20's. I don't doubt Carolans ability as a skills/development coach but there is a sense of you don't know what you got till its gone.
Ruddock got the nuts and bolts right. Build a positive team spirit and collective in a short space of time. Make sure your set piece is in place and have a simple clear game plan for the players to follow.
Our scrum struggled this year and that could be down to personel but the lineout was way below what it should be. Strange aimless kicking has hall marked a lot of our play.
Carolan will learn from this and improve but his appointment which smacks of cost saving has not worked.

Stainalert

FrannoFan wrote: »

I'm surprised the obvious hasn't been discussed more. That Carolan isn't a coach of the same calibre of Mike ruddock. No shame in that-ruddock has a grand slam,years of experience as a head coach as well as plenty of experience of doing the under 20's. I don't doubt Carolans ability as a skills/development coach but there is a sense of you don't know what you got till its gone.
Ruddock got the nuts and bolts right. Build a positive team spirit and collective in a short space of time. Make sure your set piece is in place and have a simple clear game plan for the players to follow.
Our scrum struggled this year and that could be down to personel but the lineout was way below what it should be. Strange aimless kicking has hall marked a lot of our play.
Carolan will learn from this and improve but his appointment which smacks of cost saving has not worked.

Spot on

ArmchairQB

FrannoFan wrote: »

I'm surprised the obvious hasn't been discussed more. That Carolan isn't a coach of the same calibre of Mike ruddock. No shame in that-ruddock has a grand slam,years of experience as a head coach as well as plenty of experience of doing the under 20's. I don't doubt Carolans ability as a skills/development coach but there is a sense of you don't know what you got till its gone.
Ruddock got the nuts and bolts right. Build a positive team spirit and collective in a short space of time. Make sure your set piece is in place and have a simple clear game plan for the players to follow.
Our scrum struggled this year and that could be down to personel but the lineout was way below what it should be. Strange aimless kicking has hall marked a lot of our play.
Carolan will learn from this and improve but his appointment which smacks of cost saving has not worked.

Have no doubt it was a cost cutting measure but as you say hopefully Carolan & indeed McEntee are big enough to take on board their failings this season and improve next season. It has undoubtedly been a step backwards & the worry is that the people reveiwing at the end of the season are the people who instigated the change so will they be as objective or indeed is the carrot or stick not big enough as these lads have jobs to fall back on anyway within the IRFU & Provincial structures

its_phil

FrannoFan wrote: »

I'm surprised the obvious hasn't been discussed more. That Carolan isn't a coach of the same calibre of Mike ruddock. No shame in that-ruddock has a grand slam,years of experience as a head coach as well as plenty of experience of doing the under 20's. I don't doubt Carolans ability as a skills/development coach but there is a sense of you don't know what you got till its gone.
Ruddock got the nuts and bolts right. Build a positive team spirit and collective in a short space of time. Make sure your set piece is in place and have a simple clear game plan for the players to follow.
Our scrum struggled this year and that could be down to personel but the lineout was way below what it should be. Strange aimless kicking has hall marked a lot of our play.
Carolan will learn from this and improve but his appointment which smacks of cost saving has not worked.

To call it cost saving is ridiculous. He's very highly rated and was pursued by Leinster a couple seasons back. He's the future Connacht head coach in waiting for a reason. People would swear Ruddock was brilliant every season and he was crap and worse in his first World Cup. No wins with a team more talented in the group stages.

Also one 6N win and consistently finishing 3rd and 4th is not impressive. It took Ruddock a couple seasons to finish in top 5 as well

irishbucsfan

I know guys who played under Ruddock both in Ireland and Wales and have heard extremely mixed things to be honest, particularly from those he worked with in Wales. I haven't heard nearly as much about Carolan but he does seem to be a bit of a rising star, it may be that we look back on this period as a learning curve and he goes on to be very successful with the team in future.

Stainalert

its_phil wrote: »

To call it cost saving is ridiculous. He's very highly rated and was pursued by Leinster a couple seasons back. He's the future Connacht head coach in waiting for a reason. People would swear Ruddock was brilliant every season and he was crap and worse in his first World Cup. No wins with a team more talented in the group stages.

Also one 6N win and consistently finishing 3rd and 4th is not impressive. It took Ruddock a couple seasons to finish in top 5 as well

It is a cost saving - funds were diverted from 20s to fund the men's 7's program. All of the 20s coaches are already IRFU employees.

Think there is a big difference between someone coming in and finding their feet versus someone who is already part of the academy system and who in theory should have an excellent knowledge of the domestic player base.

Not stirring things up and this question is more out of ignorance but what has Carolan done to merit the high rating? I am sure he will be a better coach for the experience of this world cup. I wonder does he have the authority to pick and choose his assistant coaches?

The Lost Sheep

Tox56 wrote: »

I agree with you they shouldn't have to. But regardless of whether they have to or not, a lot of kids who are aspiring to become professional will do it anyway, because as I was saying those schools by their nature offer an environment clubs can't. What I'm saying I have no problem with is people chosing to do that on their own accord. Plenty have come through and are currently coming through the clubs system, maybe it could be utilised more but Leinster are identifying talent in these clubs and bringing them through the representative teams

So why have we loads complaining about restricting the numbers moving schools for purpose of playing rugby as this weakens the club game and why are their schools not aiding development elsewhere when all should be working for common good of the sport.

bradders90 wrote: »

Thats more of an argument about whether private schools are right or wrong, this is a forum for rugby.

It isn't an argument about that and is about rugby...

FrannoFan wrote: »

I'm surprised the obvious hasn't been discussed more. That Carolan isn't a coach of the same calibre of Mike ruddock. No shame in that-ruddock has a grand slam,years of experience as a head coach as well as plenty of experience of doing the under 20's. I don't doubt Carolans ability as a skills/development coach but there is a sense of you don't know what you got till its gone.
Ruddock got the nuts and bolts right. Build a positive team spirit and collective in a short space of time. Make sure your set piece is in place and have a simple clear game plan for the players to follow.
Our scrum struggled this year and that could be down to personel but the lineout was way below what it should be. Strange aimless kicking has hall marked a lot of our play.
Carolan will learn from this and improve but his appointment which smacks of cost saving has not worked.

Fair point but its only 1 year. I think you have to wait and see how he'll do next year etc.

its_phil

Stainalert wrote: »

It is a cost saving - funds were diverted from 20s to fund the men's 7's program. All of the 20s coaches are already IRFU employees.

Think there is a big difference between someone coming in and finding their feet versus someone who is already part of the academy system and who in theory should have an excellent knowledge of the domestic player base.

Not stirring things up and this question is more out of ignorance but what has Carolan done to merit the high rating? I am sure he will be a better coach for the experience of this world cup. I wonder does he have the authority to pick and choose his assistant coaches?

It's cost saving perhaps, but it wasn't a decision made on that basis. Carolan was always going to be a strong candidate for the 20s job. Not many here were shocked when he was selected.

Of course he is going to need to find his feet too? He knows his own academy better than anyone, but the other three he obviously not as much. And you could make the argument Ruddock had enough inside knowlege with the huge amount of players on 20s squad from Lansdowne.

You can see references to Carolan by a lot of the Connacht lads who are progressing very quickly including Marmion, Henshaw, Masterson and Eoin McKeon. Won u20 interpros for the first time with Connacht against a strong Leinster side. Developed an academy that barely produced a player to an academy that has players ready to step into senior team at a short notice as seen many times this year wih Blade, Connolly, Dillane, Delahunt, Conor McKeon and a few others.

RobbieRuns

A lot of the post mortem from the 6N and JWC should be after the last game, when the season is over, but I have to say that the head coach has to be responsible for the performance of the team and the squad as a whole.

To make out that it was only a practice run this season and finding your feet in running the squad is silly and not fair to the players who were on the team this year, are we saying that they were test runs for future teams? I don't agree that any year should be used as a "find your feet" year. Coaches live and die by performances and results and rightly so. This group were touted as a very talented lot and Nigel and co should be able to get the best out of them, that's their jobs. There is no such thing as a trial run in top level sport.

specttator

squad rotation seems to matter little to the coaches. As others have said, five matches in 20 days is more a man management issue in this tournament than the 6 N.