Ireland U20 2015 6 nations and junior world cup

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The irish team barely won opening games and had strongest teams out. Would they have been better with weaker sides paying.
The number of officials being used in this tournament is fairly limited. TMO could have been South African but don't see that as too much of an issue...

All the blame cant simply be put on the coaches. Yes the side 3 years ago did have to do with Paddy Jackson but they had a guy in JJ to step up who had already played 20s a year up and was there somebody like that for us this year? No. It was quite different.

Fergal Cleary played 10 quiet comfortably for Clongowes but wasn't even thought to be used there, carberry being played as a 9 by Leinster, plenty of options that coaching staff could have taken but choose not to. Not 100% their fault but again with so many returning players this year it is very dissapointing.

Buer

marc96 wrote: »

Well then don't say "pretty legitimate" try

I said to my eye which it was. I made a mistake and admitted it. Stop being so silly.

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The irish team barely won opening games and had strongest teams out. Would they have been better with weaker sides paying.
The number of officials being used in this tournament is fairly limited. TMO could have been South African but don't see that as too much of an issue...

All the blame cant simply be put on the coaches. Yes the side 3 years ago did have to do with Paddy Jackson but they had a guy in JJ to step up who had already played 20s a year up and was there somebody like that for us this year? No. It was quite different.

You do love defending all things IRFU though which I find very amusing!

Buer

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The irish team barely won opening games and had strongest teams out. Would they have been better with weaker sides paying.

Honestly, I know it's defeatist but I thought the team for the NZ game should have been rotated more. They were clearly tiring against Scotland and struggling in the final quarter of that game.

The overwhelming likelihood was that NZ would win that game and this fixture was going to be critical for next year's seeding.

I can understand why the coaching team did what they did but I certainly think they should have used their squad more, especially as there have been very few players that had strong tournaments.

Hagz

I do think it's been a disappointing first season for Carolan. I felt he got some of the selections terribly wrong in the 6nations and watching this years JWC, there was an excess amount of aimless kicking. It is only his first season though.

Blackheath

Rock with another try

RobbieRuns

22-12 now Rock try. Better 2nd half

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Fergal Cleary played 10 quiet comfortably for Clongowes but wasn't even thought to be used there, carberry being played as a 9 by Leinster, plenty of options that coaching staff could have taken but choose not to. Not 100% their fault but again with so many returning players this year it is very dissapointing.

Yeah Cleary played youths, club and provincially at half back, and then in school but has he played much at all since then at 10? Primarily been looked at further out.
Yes is it slightly disappointing but for this tournament they have missed their biggest weapon in Byrne and his control, ability at 10 has been greatly missed.

ArmchairQB wrote: »

You do love defending all things IRFU though which I find very amusing!

:rolleyes:
This is getting boring now. Again if you actually knew me im a big critic of a lot of what the IRFU do in developing the sport...

Buer wrote: »

Honestly, I know it's defeatist but I thought the team for the NZ game should have been rotated more. They were clearly tiring against Scotland and struggling in the final quarter of that game.

The overwhelming likelihood was that NZ would win that game and this fixture was going to be critical for next year's seeding.

I can understand why the coaching team did what they did but I certainly think they should have used their squad more, especially as there have been very few players that had strong tournaments.

Perhaps but who are all the changes the coaching team should have made?

RobbieRuns

Game over 12-22 to Wales.

Blackheath

So is it Scotland again on Saturday?

RobbieRuns

Blackheath wrote: »

So is it Scotland again on Saturday?

Yep, 7th place play off.

The Lost Sheep

Saturday
11th Place Samoa v Italy
9th Place Argentina v Japan
7th Place Ireland v Scotland
5th Place Australia v Wales
3rd Place South Africa v France
Final England v New Zealand.

With us in 7th/8th playoff we will have one of England or New Zealand in our pool next year....
If Ireland win, they will be in with the Champions, the losers of Wales v Australia and Georgia, who won u20 World Trophy earlier in the year.

If Ireland lose, they will be in with the runners-up, the winners of Wales v Australia and the winners of Samoa v Italy.

specttator

I see the match on Saturday is being played at 1pm Italian time. Having experienced the heat there last Saturday at 4.30, I would be concerned for any team expected to play at that hour of the day.
On another matter, how has anyone managed to get to see tonight's match.

stars20

I've said it before. Terenure were best U20 team in Leinster the last 2 years and have had very few players on the team the last 2 years. UCD however still manage to have 8 players on average in the match day squad. Coaches need to look at players who are in form and playing well during the season not by the name or what they have done at school or just because there in the academy.
I was delighted to see Charlie Rock get a chance.

The Lost Sheep

stars20 wrote: »

I've said it before. Terenure were best U20 team in Leinster the last 2 years and have had very few players on the team the last 2 years. UCD however still manage to have 8 players on average in the match day squad. Coaches need to look at players who are in form and playing well during the season not by the name or what they have done at school or just because there in the academy.
I was delighted to see Charlie Rock get a chance.

Which players from Terenure should have ben involved?
Nearly all the guys playing Irish 20s are playing above club u20 rugby and have to be. They are all or virtually all playing senior club rugby. Coaches do look at players in form and playing well. Look at Conan O Donnell. Plays dual status with the senior club in Sligo and NUIG which meant he was playing AIL in division 2B with Sligo and u20 AIL with NUIG-Corinthians.

stars20

Mccorry cup final Terenure front row had UCD scrum going back the whole game that was an all Irish front row. There hooker could also throw in. Michael melia 2nd row should have been there or there abouts along with paddy Thornton. I'm not saying these lads would have made the difference but should have been involved in training camps so coaches could look at them closer considering they don't watch 20s matches
Yes and he's been a very good find but there is more of them out there.
We had a great back line in this tournament but we couldn't get them the ball. Hugely disappointing tournament

shuffol

Unfortunately there's just been a lack of talent in the forwards this year, Loughman is the only player I've seen that I'd tip to have a big future. Heffernan is the worst TH I've seen in recent years which is especially disappointing seeing as he's had 2 years at this level. Dow could get some games for Ulster due to their lack of backrows but I see him at best reaching a level similiar to someone like Paddy Butler.

wise7

shuffol wrote: »

Unfortunately there's just been a lack of talent in the forwards this year, Loughman is the only player I've seen that I'd tip to have a big future. Heffernan is the worst TH I've seen in recent years which is especially disappointing seeing as he's had 2 years at this level. Dow could get some games for Ulster due to their lack of backrows but I see him at best reaching a level similiar to someone like Paddy Butler.

don't know how you can ignore the huge performances by Josh Murphy who has played all 4 games. By reports he was 'taken out' in the first 5 mins last night.

Stainalert

Agree with Stars20 re some of the selection. The problem with having IRFU academy coaches taking charge of the team is that they won't really look beyond the academies and sub academies which narrows the potential pool considerably. I think it has been a pretty disappointing tournament for Ireland and must be seen as below standard. The loss of Ross Byrne was a big loss but Carberry should really have had some game time before coming to the world cup. The scrum has been a fiasco all season. I am not sure why but the continued selection of Heffernan when he was not performing to the standard required is puzzling to say the least. Even without Ross Byrne and a not so great forward platform I would have expected a lot more from our backline but we really looked short on ideas and pace. I think a lot of players in this squad have simply performed below their potential - Dardis is a player with massive potential but to me on this world cup performance he has gone backwards. Josh Murphy has been the one major positive from the tournament.

TomThumb

stars20 wrote: »

Mccorry cup final Terenure front row had UCD scrum going back the whole game that was an all Irish front row. There hooker could also throw in. Michael melia 2nd row should have been there or there abouts along with paddy Thornton. I'm not saying these lads would have made the difference but should have been involved in training camps so coaches could look at them closer considering they don't watch 20s matches
Yes and he's been a very good find but there is more of them out there.
We had a great back line in this tournament but we couldn't get them the ball. Hugely disappointing tournament

They werent going backwards when Phelan was on at Tighthead in the first half and im fairly certain they even won a few penalties in the first half at scrum time (UCD that is) and i def remember on the far side on the UCD 22 on Terenure put in Porter and Phelan just obliterated the Nure scrum folding them back on their asses and turning it over. Then UCD took him off at half time (get Loughman game time) for some crazy reason and Loughman came on at scrum time and Borza handled Loughman great and terenure got a foothold at scrum time then driving them backwards routinely.

Loughmans an out and out Loosehead at the higher levels but leinster are chancing there arm trying him at Tight which isnt really his best position thereby missing out on a natural TH in Phelan (who i read on Boards was offered academy contracts by Leinster, Munster and Ulster). The Terenure hooker was the leinster hooker at under 18 and 19 but didnt make the leinster team at 20s which illustrates how the choices of the underage system can lose a player who could be of benefit for the national side.

For me the real problem with the Irish team at under 20s was that they didnt look outside the sub academys thereby missing out on late developing lads like Phelan who is the standby im told , Cormac Brennan, Tim Schmidt who was very impressive for Terenure at 15 although lacks size but has a great brain for the game, Charlie Rock (who wasnt near the squad for the 6 nations until he had played an A Game for Leinster.

Terenure though are a great example of a team at this level of rugby who despite the sum of there parts are an excellent team due to excellent coaching and a great desire from their entire squad to lay it on the line for each other at every instance and thereby getting great results, something i feel the irish 20s dont do. In my opinon they are a bunch of very nice talented players who are a bit soft relative to other irish 20s teams ive seen over the years who had far less talent, Conor Oliver came in against scotland and despite being undersized showed proper go and desire and he eleveated the performance of the pack passed where they had been and then gets dropped for the NZ game which i didnt get, 15 hungry lads putting the bodies on the line will beat 15 talented individuals who are a bit soft.

That said an even greater problem for them as a team was that they spent so little time together as a squad training, with them just training with the academys and then starting training together as a full squad only when in italy, in comparision all the other nations had trained together for numerous weeks leading into the tournament, throw a team together with no training camps done and this is the result you get.

In my opinion as well the headcoach of the Irish Under 20s should not be an academy coach or be tied to a particular province or setup as is the current system - i have no issue with the coachs under the head coach being academy coaches and being linked with each province but really and truly the head coach needs to be external to the academy system to allow a clear external viewpoint of all the players that could possibly play for Ireland someone like a Phil werahiko or someone else maybe like the french where they use the French under 20s as a stepping stone for older professionals into coaching ie Pelous.

Oh and a side note can someone get Billy Dardis to stop kicking the ball its seriously annoying in fact way too much kicking from the enitre backline.

stars20

I agree re Josh Murphy. He really stood up with a pack going backwards all tournament. It will be interesting to see if the Irish 20s coaches change their approach for next season.

The Lost Sheep

stars20 wrote: »

Mccorry cup final Terenure front row had UCD scrum going back the whole game that was an all Irish front row. There hooker could also throw in. Michael melia 2nd row should have been there or there abouts along with paddy Thornton. I'm not saying these lads would have made the difference but should have been involved in training camps so coaches could look at them closer considering they don't watch 20s matches
Yes and he's been a very good find but there is more of them out there.
We had a great back line in this tournament but we couldn't get them the ball. Hugely disappointing tournament

The international coaches don't watch 20s that much as you would expect guys to be playing Irish 20s to be playing AIL and above. Perhaps some should have been looked at more but who would the guys you name have been ahead of?

Stainalert wrote: »

Agree with Stars20 re some of the selection. The problem with having IRFU academy coaches taking charge of the team is that they won't really look beyond the academies and sub academies which narrows the potential pool considerably. I think it has been a pretty disappointing tournament for Ireland and must be seen as below standard. The loss of Ross Byrne was a big loss but Carberry should really have had some game time before coming to the world cup. The scrum has been a fiasco all season. I am not sure why but the continued selection of Heffernan when he was not performing to the standard required is puzzling to say the least. Even without Ross Byrne and a not so great forward platform I would have expected a lot more from our backline but we really looked short on ideas and pace. I think a lot of players in this squad have simply performed below their potential - Dardis is a player with massive potential but to me on this world cup performance he has gone backwards. Josh Murphy has been the one major positive from the tournament.

I don't think you can say having academy coaches is an issue. The side hasn't lived up to the expectations some people had for the team.
I don't see how you would have expected more from the backs when they were missing their key outhalf and leader and their pack wasn't capable of providing them with the greatest platform. Fairly basic rugby that a backline, however good, will not look great if they don't have the platform to perform...

TomThumb wrote: »

That said an even greater problem for them as a team was that they spent so little time together as a squad training, with them just training with the academys and then starting training together as a full squad only when in italy, in comparision all the other nations had trained together for numerous weeks leading into the tournament, throw a team together with no training camps done and this is the result you get.

In my opinion as well the headcoach of the Irish Under 20s should not be an academy coach or be tied to a particular province or setup as is the current system - i have no issue with the coachs under the head coach being academy coaches and being linked with each province but really and truly the head coach needs to be external to the academy system to allow a clear external viewpoint of all the players that could possibly play for Ireland someone like a Phil werahiko or someone else maybe like the french where they use the French under 20s as a stepping stone for older professionals into coaching ie Pelous.

Most of the other nations - New Zealand, England, France.. all players are full pro's unlike the Irish squad. Players
I don't see any issue with an academy coach being the head coach. Why should a coach have to be independent of the provincial set ups??
The academy coaches remit is to develop players capable of playing professional rugby so why should they not be involved in the principal age grade team?
Who are these professional players you would have involved in this side as a coach? They had an ex pro who is highly regarded as a coach involved in John Fogarty....

shuffol

wise7 wrote: »

don't know how you can ignore the huge performances by Josh Murphy who has played all 4 games. By reports he was 'taken out' in the first 5 mins last night.

I haven't gotten to see very much of the last few games, from reports it sounded like he'd a good game against NZ, I wasn't overly impressed by him in the 6N but he's a tough one to judge as he obviously has a fair bit of growing into his body to do. Good to hear he's been doing well.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The international coaches don't watch 20s that much as you would expect guys to be playing Irish 20s to be playing AIL and above. Perhaps some should have been looked at more but who would the guys you name have been ahead of?
I don't think you can say having academy coaches is an issue. The side hasn't lived up to the expectations some people had for the team.
I don't see how you would have expected more from the backs when they were missing their key outhalf and leader and their pack wasn't capable of providing them with the greatest platform. Fairly basic rugby that a backline, however good, will not look great if they don't have the platform to perform...

I watched all of the games and they had plenty of opportunity and did not finish too many chances - aside from Ringrose and Arnold they were pedestrian in my opinion.

Having a coach not involved with academies gives another pair of eyes that will think differently to the academy guys - not saying there is anything wrong with them but if they pick outside of the academy structures they are admitting they may have made a mistake

Most of the other nations - New Zealand, England, France.. all players are full pro's unlike the Irish squad. Players
I don't see any issue with an academy coach being the head coach. Why should a coach have to be independent of the provincial set ups??
The academy coaches remit is to develop players capable of playing professional rugby so why should they not be involved in the principal age grade team?
Who are these professional players you would have involved in this side as a coach? They had an ex pro who is highly regarded as a coach involved in John Fogarty....

Based on the U20 scrum John Fogarty has a lot to prove

d-gal

shuffol wrote: »

I haven't gotten to see very much of the last few games, from reports it sounded like he'd a good game against NZ, I wasn't overly impressed by him in the 6N but he's a tough one to judge as he obviously has a fair bit of growing into his body to do. Good to hear he's been doing well.

I know a few of his relations and they are all massive massive men - one of the naturally biggest families I've ever met. He will have no problem filling out and should improve as time goes on.

leinster blue boys

Stainalert wrote: »

Agree with Stars20 re some of the selection. The problem with having IRFU academy coaches taking charge of the team is that they won't really look beyond the academies and sub academies which narrows the potential pool considerably. I think it has been a pretty disappointing tournament for Ireland and must be seen as below standard. The loss of Ross Byrne was a big loss but Carberry should really have had some game time before coming to the world cup. The scrum has been a fiasco all season. I am not sure why but the continued selection of Heffernan when he was not performing to the standard required is puzzling to say the least. Even without Ross Byrne and a not so great forward platform I would have expected a lot more from our backline but we really looked short on ideas and pace. I think a lot of players in this squad have simply performed below their potential - Dardis is a player with massive potential but to me on this world cup performance he has gone backwards. Josh Murphy has been the one major positive from the tournament.

agree 100% with above ,our backs were poor ,creating very little ,coaches only look at academy players an not at anything outside academies or exile players,i noticed a player who has been brought up on this forum callum sheedy,,playing 7s for the samurais(an international invitation team)in the GB 7s series in north wales ,the samurais actually beat irish wolfhounds in final, apparently sheedy played for Ireland u 19s last year,,the point im trying to get across is why aren't irish selectors looking at these young lads ,sheedy is only 19,and im sure there are many more over in britain

The Lost Sheep

leinster blue boys wrote: »

agree 100% with above, our backs were poor, creating very little, coaches only look at academy players an not at anything outside academies or exile players, i noticed a player who has been brought up on this forum callum sheedy, playing 7s for the samurais(an international invitation team)in the GB 7s series in north wales, the samurais actually beat irish wolfhounds in final, apparently sheedy played for Ireland u 19s last year, the point im trying to get across is why aren't irish selectors looking at these young lads, sheedy is only 19,and im sure there are many more over in britain

Sheedy has came up for discussion a few times. He was picked in the Welsh u20 squad at start of the year(is also eligible to play for England) but dropped out of that squad as if he had played he would have been tied to play for Wales.
Perhaps he didn't want to play for anyone yet as he doesn't know who he wants to play for in the future and will decide in the future...

I don't think you can simply say coaches are only looking at academy players based on this year. The guys in the academies are by the nature of the academies the best players in the country.... so why wouldn't they form the overwhelming majority of the national squad. Irish players do look at exiles but the exiles have to look to come over and play for the provinces in the under 20 interpros if they are to have much of a shot at playing for Ireland at 20s. At under 18 for the youths team and at under 19 the exiles have a team competing in the interprovincial series but by 20s there isn't an exiles team for a variety of reasons... Maybe the exiles should look to create a team to compete in the 20s interpro series.

Hagz

wise7 wrote: »

don't know how you can ignore the huge performances by Josh Murphy who has played all 4 games. By reports he was 'taken out' in the first 5 mins last night.

Judging by the pictures up on Sportsfile and Inpho he played the full 80 and looks fine.

Bridge93

Should an area of concern be how reliant we are on Leinster? Surely we will struggle more often than not if 70% of the players are coming from one province. The others especially Munster need to get their act together.

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

Should an area of concern be how reliant we are on Leinster? Surely we will struggle more often than not if 70% of the players are coming from one province. The others especially Munster need to get their act together.

What would you recommend be done to change this reliance? What would you do to improve things in the other provinces? How would you change things so Munster "get their act together"?
Leinster have nearly always dominated all the age grade national sides from u18 clubs, schools, u19s and 20s