Ireland U20 2015 6 nations and junior world cup

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

again your entitled to your opinion but totally disagree. Connacht are masking the fact that they are not developing most of these players. Why assign them to clubs at all. Leinster still publish school names until the players have decided on a club. Petty stupid stuff and fools nobody but shows that they think the public are stupid and think province is in great shape with new talent. They rightly develop talent from all over in academy and ifthey are investing in them they put them with clubs but doing what they do at 20's is silly no matter what angle you look at it from

Connacht are not masking anything. They are assigning clubs as there may be a call from IRFU or Connacht Branch for this move. Players could still register with NUIG RFC and be registered with a senior club in Dublin and play with both if necessary considering NUIG RFC are a junior club. They are not fooling or attempting to fool the public. They are developing talent within the province but you have to remember there is very very small numbers playing in the province and it is better for Connacht and Irish rugby if they do this. The province is in good shape from the amount of age grade club and school rugby in Connacht that I either attended or officiated at last season. The Connacht development office and sub academy and academy officers/coaches are doing Trojan work but they have very small numbers to work with and are investing in the talent in the province and I don't see how much wrong they are doing.

Stainalert wrote: »

Agree with ArmchairQB. Connacht are lying about the actual clubs these players are actually registered to and effectively trying to tell everyone that these players were developed from within which is complete baloney. Sorry Lost Sheep but it is completely indefensible and that is not just my opinion or Armchair QB's as they have been warned by the IRFU about this already.

They are not lying. You can be registered as dual status and be registered with a junior and senior club. Many who are registered as playing with NUIG may also be registered with a senior club elsewhere. They may play all there rugby with a club in another province but that doesn't change the fact that they are dual status registered with NUIG and their club in Leinster/Munster

stellenbosch wrote: »

Totally agree with Stainalert and QB:

FACT-Alex Penny is about to go to UCD to study Finance and Economics and will be playing for UCD-what does "registered" with NUIG mean????

I also understand that very recently there has been another warning issued to Connacht as to who they are selecting for their U18s schools squad.

Being registered to play with NUIG means being eligible to play with NUIG. Penney could be in UCD and playing there but that doesn't stop him under the dual status regulation from being eligible to play for NUIG RFC.

TellALS wrote: »

Pat O'Toole a connacht player and Ireland under-19 player is on the bench for Rory Litchfield, a player that was with Belvedere last year.
Marc Kelly a connacht academy player is on the bench for Penny who is obviously a Michaels lad.

By my count there is 5 connacht developed players in that squad (O'Donnell, Kyne, Lowndes, O'Toole and Hansberry) the rest are from leinster schools with a few lads from rockwell.

Connacht have a smaller playing base than the rest by far. Its disappointing that Connacht cant produce an entire squad of players who grew up in Connacht, played all or the majority of their age grade rugby in Connacht clubs and schools but we have to face facts. Connacht have by far the smallest playing base. They have such small numbers that many clubs are struggling to field at the oldest age groups, the numbers are so small at some age groups that the referees association are nearly at stage of not officiating at under age games by the finals due to games constantly being called off due to lack of numbers.

Tox56 wrote: »

Good win, on paper Leinster look very strong all round at U20 even with the biggest names missing, as do Ulster and Munster (don't know much about Connacht). Should be a very competitive national team this year

Hopefully the national side are strong. There was plenty who played a year up last year which bodes well for this season.
Will aim to go to at least 1 of the interpros in next two weeks..

Hagz

I'm very excited about the quality of backs that will be available to Ruddock. Good depth in every position, and each option comes with a great reputation. I don't think it's ever been this good.

My worry is whether the quality is there in the pack to do the backs justice. If everyone stays fit Ruddock should be able to form a strong starting pack, but is the depth there?

RobbieRuns

Hagz wrote: »

I'm very excited about the quality of backs that will be available to Ruddock. Good depth in every position, and each option comes with a great reputation. I don't think it's ever been this good.

My worry is whether the quality is there in the pack to do the backs justice. If everyone stays fit Ruddock should be able to form a strong starting pack, but is the depth there?

Agree completely with you Hagz. Could make arguments for so many of the backs in each position, very very strong, but not sure if the amount of forwards of real quality matches. The injuries will always come, strength in depth is huge.

Hagz

Nice detailed report from the Leinster website

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/domestic/12402.php#.VApJQVa5I2w

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Connacht are not masking anything. They are assigning clubs as there may be a call from IRFU or Connacht Branch for this move. Players could still register with NUIG RFC and be registered with a senior club in Dublin and play with both if necessary considering NUIG RFC are a junior club. They are not fooling or attempting to fool the public. They are developing talent within the province but you have to remember there is very very small numbers playing in the province and it is better for Connacht and Irish rugby if they do this. The province is in good shape from the amount of age grade club and school rugby in Connacht that I either attended or officiated at last season. The Connacht development office and sub academy and academy officers/coaches are doing Trojan work but they have very small numbers to work with and are investing in the talent in the province and I don't see how much wrong they are doing.
They are not lying. You can be registered as dual status and be registered with a junior and senior club. Many who are registered as playing with NUIG may also be registered with a senior club elsewhere. They may play all there rugby with a club in another province but that doesn't change the fact that they are dual status registered with NUIG and their club in Leinster/Munster

Being registered to play with NUIG means being eligible to play with NUIG. Penney could be in UCD and playing there but that doesn't stop him under the dual status regulation from being eligible to play for NUIG RFC.
Connacht have a smaller playing base than the rest by far. Its disappointing that Connacht cant produce an entire squad of players who grew up in Connacht, played all or the majority of their age grade rugby in Connacht clubs and schools but we have to face facts. Connacht have by far the smallest playing base. They have such small numbers that many clubs are struggling to field at the oldest age groups, the numbers are so small at some age groups that the referees association are nearly at stage of not officiating at under age games by the finals due to games constantly being called off due to lack of numbers.
Hopefully the national side are strong. There was plenty who played a year up last year which bodes well for this season.
Will aim to go to at least 1 of the interpros in next two weeks..

Excerpt from memo written by Scott Walker to provinces in July re U20s

"For the avoidance of doubt, a player cannot transfer to a club in a province with the intention of achieving eligibility to play for that province and then transfer back to their original club (in another province) at the conclusion of the interprovincial."

3 players on Connacht registered to NUIG on team so even if your dual status excuse is valid (which I am sceptical about) that leaves a lot of other players who Connacht claim are registered with a particular club when in actual fact they are registered with Leinster clubs. You cannot be registered with 2 senior clubs at the same time. A number of players on this list are actually registered with Dublin clubs. That is fact and can easily be verified.

This was not the case last season where player actual clubs were declared. There has been no laws introduced by IRFU whereby players have to be registered with clubs within the province in order to play for that province. Underhand and dishonest by Connacht. No other explanation

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Excerpt from memo written by Scott Walker to provinces in July re U20s

"For the avoidance of doubt, a player cannot transfer to a club in a province with the intention of achieving eligibility to play for that province and then transfer back to their original club (in another province) at the conclusion of the interprovincial."

3 players on Connacht registered to NUIG on team so even if your dual status excuse is valid (which I am sceptical about) that leaves a lot of other players who Connacht claim are registered with a particular club when in actual fact they are registered with Leinster clubs. You cannot be registered with 2 senior clubs at the same time. A number of players on this list are actually registered with Dublin clubs. That is fact and can easily be verified.

This was not the case last season where player actual clubs were declared. There has been no laws introduced by IRFU whereby players have to be registered with clubs within the province in order to play for that province. Underhand and dishonest by Connacht. No other explanation

What would you prefer to happen? Connacht be weaker and as a result the interpro series to be not as strong.
Why wouldn't be being dual status not be valid? You can within reason be registered with 2 senior clubs but the reason does not comply with any of the players involved with Connacht at 20s grade this season. I played under 20 rugby with a different senior club to my own as my own club didn't field at under 20 in the season in question.
IRFU didn't introduce any procedure but Connacht did themselves. All the other provinces could do the same. Nothing is underhand or dishonest by Connacht. What would you prefer Connacht to do?

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What would you prefer to happen? Connacht be weaker and as a result the interpro series to be not as strong.
Why wouldn't be being dual status not be valid? You can within reason be registered with 2 senior clubs but the reason does not comply with any of the players involved with Connacht at 20s grade this season. I played under 20 rugby with a different senior club to my own as my own club didn't field at under 20 in the season in question.
IRFU didn't introduce any procedure but Connacht did themselves. All the other provinces could do the same. Nothing is underhand or dishonest by Connacht. What would you prefer Connacht to do?

Fact of the matter is they could have named the players school and be done with it! The petty attempt to portray them as Connacht club payers is insulting and a blatant attempt to deceive the general public but the rugby public are not fooled at all!

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Fact of the matter is they could have named the players school and be done with it! The petty attempt to portray them as Connacht club payers is insulting and a blatant attempt to deceive the general public but the rugby public are not fooled at all!

Why should they? Other provinces use players who played little or no rugby in the respective province before playing under 20. It isn't insulting portraying them as Connacht players and they are attempting to deceive nobody. Can we leave this here and just concentrate on the rugby now?

Board_man

Anyone at either of the 2 under 20 inter pro matches last night? Who were the standouts from each province?

Snegg

Board_man wrote: »

Anyone at either of the 2 under 20 inter pro matches last night? Who were the standouts from each province?

Was at the Leinster/Munster match.

Joey Carberry looked very capable at 10. He controlled the game well and was very solid kicking both out of hand and off the tee. He moved to 15 late on, and again looked comfortable and a threat on the ball.

I thought Nick Timoney played the best game of rugby I'd seen him play in a long time, offered a very solid platform off the back of the scrum, and got around the park well.

In defence, David O'Connor was immense, tackle well and was an ever present threat at the breakdown.

I expected more from both Jack Power and Jeremy Loughman. Neither were poor, but they've both just set extremely high standards for themselves.
Adam Leavy, on the back of a very strong pre-season, wasn't at his best I felt.

Wasn't paying much attention to the Munster lads to be honest, so can't really comment on them.

Hagz

Pics
http://aidantarbett.photoshelter.com/gallery/Leinster-U20-V-Munster-U20/G0000JA4uWWCKxhY/

stellenbosch

Snegg wrote: »

Was at the Leinster/Munster match.

Joey Carberry looked very capable at 10. He controlled the game well and was very solid kicking both out of hand and off the tee. He moved to 15 late on, and again looked comfortable and a threat on the ball.

I thought Nick Timoney played the best game of rugby I'd seen him play in a long time, offered a very solid platform off the back of the scrum, and got around the park well.

In defence, David O'Connor was immense, tackle well and was an ever present threat at the breakdown.

I expected more from both Jack Power and Jeremy Loughman. Neither were poor, but they've both just set extremely high standards for themselves.
Adam Leavy, on the back of a very strong pre-season, wasn't at his best I felt.

Wasn't paying much attention to the Munster lads to be honest, so can't really comment on them.

Was at the match.

Agree with the majority of your comments.

In fairness to Power he has been carrying a knee injury through the warm ups and he went off injured again last night which may explain. For me Conor Oliver was outstanding as was O'Connor and Porter(although he picked up a YC for illegal scrummaging)

I was disappointed with O'Brien at 13 and if fit would have Brewer(picked up what looked like a nasty leg injury) and Cleary at 12 and 13 for the next interpro.

Leavy was lucky IMO to get a start as Brennan,Courtney and O'Hagan are all injured having played in warm up games in UK(exiles and Leicester) and Ireland(Italy and Terenure). His defense was poor.

Question i have is why was Cian O'Donoghue not playing. I saw him there and would have expected him to be the number one winger given last years performances.

For Munster there is no doubt that Fitzgerald at 15 has a big big future-very good player and has all the attributes to seriously challenge Dardis for the 15 jersey in the Irish U20s come 6 Nations and JWC.

under age rugby

any taught on munster 19 what guy are playing well for them and think mite make lrish 19

rugby addict

Lads screw those regulations we need the best players, playing in the interpros just because you can't get into the Leinster team doesn't mean that you aren't good enough to play at this level. Connacht are rightly developing the best talent available to them and not just giving places to lads because there from Connacht; while there are better players rotting in the other provinces.

ArmchairQB

rugby addict wrote: »

Lads screw those regulations we need the best players, playing in the interpros just because you can't get into the Leinster team doesn't mean that you aren't good enough to play at this level. Connacht are rightly developing the best talent available to them and not just giving places to lads because there from Connacht; while there are better players rotting in the other provinces.

Don't think anybody has a problem with lads playing rugby from any province with any province. Long recent history of Leinster lads playing for Connacht and well done to them. The problem is how they spin it that these lads are from Connacht clubs, they are not and will not be with the clubs they are assigned to and Connacht by their actions could well stop lads from playing rugby back in Leinster where they are from and are going to college if IRFU stick to what they told the provinces. Connacht playing with lads futures and not informing them of the facts or consequences.

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Don't think anybody has a problem with lads playing rugby from any province with any province. Long recent history of Leinster lads playing for Connacht and well done to them. The problem is how they spin it that these lads are from Connacht clubs, they are not and will not be with the clubs they are assigned to and Connacht by their actions could well stop lads from playing rugby back in Leinster where they are from and are going to college if IRFU stick to what they told the provinces. Connacht playing with lads futures and not informing them of the facts or consequences.

Its not spin. Connacht haven't stopped anyone from playing rugby. The players should know better or be advised better. If they were advised to register with a Connacht club to play for Connacht but are in college in Limerick/Galway etc then they should have registered with a junior club in Connacht then at least its easy to be registered with a Connacht club but still play u20 or adult rugby with their club in Leinster/Munster etc.

Can we please move on from this. Who do people see winning next weekends games? Two winners in round 1 face off in Belfast while the two defeated sides face off in Limerick

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its not spin. Connacht haven't stopped anyone from playing rugby. The players should know better or be advised better. If they were advised to register with a Connacht club to play for Connacht but are in college in Limerick/Galway etc then they should have registered with a junior club in Connacht then at least its easy to be registered with a Connacht club but still play u20 or adult rugby with their club in Leinster/Munster etc.

Can we please move on from this. Who do people see winning next weekends games? Two winners in round 1 face off in Belfast while the two defeated sides face off in Limerick

Will move on if and when I am good and ready thanks. You fail to grasp what is being said! Connacht advised players and said it would be no problem with forms being put in front of lads the day of and the day before warm up matches and told they could not play if they didn't sign. Totally against an IRFU dictate that was communicated well in advance to Connacht! Can end it there if you want!

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Watched Clontarf play Lansdowne this weekend. Neither side impressed really. Clontarf backline was much changed from last season - Joyce kicked well and was the main difference in the 2 teams. Clontarf's defensive organisation was good and kept them in the game after a shakey enough start. They struggled with front row injuries which could be a worry for them in the week ahead or maybe they are just being cautious and minding what they have. Would imagine Clontarf have a fair few players to return and to win when not playing particularly well is probably a good sign.

Attendance at the game was abysmal - Hope things pick up for this Saturday. Young Munster will be a tough game next week but given home advantage, their defensive strength and Joyce's clinical kicking I would see them getting off to a winning start especially if they have a few more bodies to pick from. Still think the UBL start is too early and will catch some teams napping.

Surely you meant this for UBL thread?
I agree UBL is probably starting a week or two too early. Will try get to a game this weekend. Hopefully the crowds can get out to games....

specttator

Match in Belfast should tell a lot. no word on injuries to Leinster players yet. All to play for.

stellenbosch

specttator wrote: »

Match in Belfast should tell a lot. no word on injuries to Leinster players yet. All to play for.

Am hearing Brewer out injured to be replaced naturally enough by Cleary. Also that Power a serious doubt due to knee to maybe be replaced by Dardis. Also Brennan who had a hamstring injury last week may be in for Valeco.

RobbieRuns

stellenbosch wrote: »

Am hearing Brewer out injured to be replaced naturally enough by Cleary. Also that Power a serious doubt due to knee to maybe be replaced by Dardis. Also Brennan who had a hamstring injury last week may be in for Valeco.

Those changes would make Leinster stronger, not weaker.

stellenbosch

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Those changes would make Leinster stronger, not weaker.

I can see where you are going but for me(was at the game on Friday):

Robbie V played well last Friday night-better than Leavy. I would have him and Brennan on the wings.

F Cleary IMO should be playing anyway and the best centre partnership for me would be Cleary at 12 and Brewer at 13-I feel he is better than O'Brien

Re Power vs Dardis-the former is a special talent and IMO is as good as Dardis. Dardis has played very very little rugby in the last 12 months-no game time in 6 Nations and 5 minutes in JWC. He has a lot to prove.

Quint2010

stellenbosch wrote: »

I can see where you are going but for me(was at the game on Friday):

Robbie V played well last Friday night-better than Leavy. I would have him and Brennan on the wings.

F Cleary IMO should be playing anyway and the best centre partnership for me would be Cleary at 12 and Brewer at 13-I feel he is better than O'Brien

Re Power vs Dardis-the former is a special talent and IMO is as good as Dardis. Dardis has played very very little rugby in the last 12 months-no game time in 6 Nations and 5 minutes in JWC. He has a lot to prove.

In the all-conquering Leinster U18 schools team two years ago the centre partnership was Brewer 12 Cleary 13.

RobbieRuns

stellenbosch wrote: »

I can see where you are going but for me(was at the game on Friday):

Robbie V played well last Friday night-better than Leavy. I would have him and Brennan on the wings.

F Cleary IMO should be playing anyway and the best centre partnership for me would be Cleary at 12 and Brewer at 13-I feel he is better than O'Brien

Re Power vs Dardis-the former is a special talent and IMO is as good as Dardis. Dardis has played very very little rugby in the last 12 months-no game time in 6 Nations and 5 minutes in JWC. He has a lot to prove.

My point really was that I think that Fergal Cleary is a more skillful all round player than Brewer, I think that he will offer more in attack.

Robbie Vallejo is a good player, but Brennan is equally as good.

Power I do not know as well, but have seen him once for Rock and is a real talent who might be better than Dardis, but in no way is Billy's inclusion (if true) anything but a plus, he is an Academy player and a member of last years JWC squad.

Overall I think those changes are better for Leinster and that they will beat Ulster on Saturday. The strength in depth of Leinster is huge. I also think that the Ulster forwards are not up to the standard of their backs.

tedgre

RobbieRuns wrote: »

My point really was that I think that Fergal Cleary is a more skillful all round player than Brewer, I think that he will offer more in attack.

Robbie Vallejo is a good player, but Brennan is equally as good.

Power I do not know as well, but have seen him once for Rock and is a real talent who might be better than Dardis, but in no way is Billy's inclusion (if true) anything but a plus, he is an Academy player and a member of last years JWC squad.

Overall I think those changes are better for Leinster and that they will beat Ulster on Saturday. The strength in depth of Leinster is huge. I also think that the Ulster forwards are not up to the standard of their backs.

Cleary and Brewer are very different players. Vallejo is decent, Leinster missing Cian O'Donoghue at that spot.
Power is very good but small, similar to Dardis.
Ulster could have as many as 7 academy players starting.. Leinster might have 1.
Ulster should be favourites. There backs 9-15 are very talented. They may struggle in the pack but they are at home and should have enough to overcome.

bilston

Ulster U20s side for Leinster

15 Jack Owens
14 Adam Liddell
13 Sam Arnold
12 Conor McKee
11 Jacob Stockdale
10 Sean O'Hagan
9 Conor Young
1 Michael Lagan
2 Zac McCall
3 Angelo Marica
4 Tim Donnan
5 Nigel Simpson
6 Callum Irvine
7 Josh Davidson
8 Lorcan Dow

16 Andrew McGrath
17 Darryl Morton
18 Dane Fitzpatrick
19 Caleb Montgomery
20 Ross Todd
21 Josh Fullerton
22 Jack Milligan
23 Michael Cartmill

Stainalert

bilston wrote: »

Ulster U20s side for Leinster

15 Jack Owens
14 Adam Liddell
13 Sam Arnold
12 Conor McKee
11 Jacob Stockdale
10 Sean O'Hagan
9 Conor Young
1 Michael Lagan
2 Zac McCall
3 Angelo Marica
4 Tim Donnan
5 Nigel Simpson
6 Callum Irvine
7 Josh Davidson
8 Lorcan Dow

16 Andrew McGrath
17 Darryl Morton
18 Dane Fitzpatrick
19 Caleb Montgomery
20 Ross Todd
21 Josh Fullerton
22 Jack Milligan
23 Michael Cartmill

Don't know too much about these Ulster players - Who should I be looking out for?

Board_man

My verdict for tonight's u20 inter pros are
Ulster to beat Leinster by >5
Munster to beat Connacht by <7

Hagz

Stainalert wrote: »

Don't know too much about these Ulster players - Who should I be looking out for?

Pretty much most of the back-line. O'Hagan, Stockdale and Owens are three lads that I would expect to be involved with Ireland this year. At least one of them will start. Stockdale is u19 and has gathered a lot of hype after his performances for Ireland u18 last season. Arnold and McKee are also tidy players and Arnold is a strong candidate for the centre spot in next years u20s.

Dow is the guy to watch in the pack, he's an exile along with O'Hagan and Arnold. He captained Ireland u19s last season and is an effective ball carrier, and likely to start for Ireland and a candidate for the captaincy.

bilston

Stainalert wrote: »

Don't know too much about these Ulster players - Who should I be looking out for?

Jacob Stockdale, Sean O'Hagan and Jack Owens are some of the backs to look out for but I think the backline in general is strong. Haven't seen him play but I've heard some good things about Arnold.

Lorcan Dow is definitely one to watch in the pack.