Ciaran Whelan "championship has gone stale"

trav1963

Couldnt agree more. A total overhaul of the current format needs to be made. In my opinion the provincial championships need to replace OByrne/McKenna etc cups and be played early in the year. Teams to be seeded and divided into 8 groups of 4 for the championship, 3 meaningful games for each team. No back door. Top 2 in each group qualify for last 16,8,4 & final. Open draws,first team out at home. The championship should be about finding the best team in the country, not about trying to fill Croke Park at every given opportunity. PS, not knocking the Dubs, but they need to be taken out of Croker and tested in other teams home ground. Finally, I think its time the suits in Croke Park were replaced with the next generation, eg. Ciaran Whelan etc as they are clearly lacking in imagination. Any views?

Fr Tod Umptious

We need a Sticky for alternative championship format discussion, one for football one for hurling

Moneymaker

He's dead right.

Going to Leinster Championship games now feel like a complete chore. I can't even remember the last time I got excited for a game.

Even games like Cork v Kerry, Mayo v Galway have lost their spark.

nice_guy80

Moneymaker wrote: »

He's dead right.

Going to Leinster Championship games now feel like a complete chore. I can't even remember the last time I got excited for a game.

Even games like Cork v Kerry, Mayo v Galway have lost their spark.

get Dublin out of Croke Park would be the first step

Moneymaker

nice_guy80 wrote: »

get Dublin out of Croke Park would be the first step

You'll find most Dublin fans will agree.

When we played Kerry down in Thurles, that remains the most enjoyable match day experience i've ever had. Wonderful day out.

I'm delighted to be going back for the hurlers next week.

As for the traffic on the way home though... :pac:

Ed Winchester

I think the idea of the provincial championships to be run as a league has merit, but it would lead to a lot of mismatches. I think a champions league style All Ireland is long overdue and would dramatically improve the competition.

Ed Winchester

nice_guy80 wrote: »

get Dublin out of Croke Park would be the first step

As a Dubs fan, i'd love that. Nearly all genuine fans would.

DoctaDee

Moneymaker wrote: »

You'll find most Dublin fans will agree.

When we played Kerry down in Thurles, that remains the most enjoyable match day experience i've ever had. Wonderful day out.

I'm delighted to be going back for the hurlers next week.

As for the traffic on the way home though... :pac:

Have never forgiven Wayne McCarthy for missing that 45 at the end of the 1st game :pac:

Wasn't there some sort of festival in Thurles the day of the replay ? .. I just recall the place being chocker and the pubs with pallets of cans outside as it was pointless trying to get yer neck in a door

zombieHanalei

I love how people suggest playing the provincial championships off before the league; what's the point of having them at all if they have no bearing on the championship itself? It would be pointless to have them at all.

I'm a Limerick man, it's safe to say I will NEVER see my county win the All-Ireland football championship. But I had a strong interest in the Munster football championship in the last decade or so, my county had a realistic chance of winning that and came agonisingly close on a few occasions, we've kind of fallen away in the last few years but hopefully we'll be right back in the mix in Munster in the not too distant future.

Take away the Munster football championship and what is there to play for anymore? An All-Ireland B championship perhaps? Better than nothing but wouldn't come close to a Munster title. And I know it's not just myself that feels that way, it's happened a few times over the last few years in Limerick and other counties that players withdraw from the panel once their county gets knocked out of their provincial championship because a qualifier run with no realistic chance of winning the All-Ireland just has no appeal to them.

Disbanding the provincial championships could be a dangerous move as smaller counties could well struggle to secure the commitment of all their best players. And besides; I like that I've seen Leitrim and Sligo win meaningful titles in my lifetime, I can just about remember Clare's title in 1992, it was great to see Westmeath and Laois make breakthroughs in 2003/2004, and we all felt sickened for Louth when they were denied in 2010. Every few years the provincial system throws up a fairytale for a team who pretty much has little to no chance of going on to claim Sam Maguire, would be a shame to lose that forever.

One thing I am in favour of though; the provincial boundaries need to be redrawn. Four "provinces" of 8 makes so much more sense.

Prop Joe

Ed Winchester wrote: »

I think the idea of the provincial championships to be run as a league has merit, but it would lead to a lot of mismatches. I think a champions league style All Ireland is long overdue and would dramatically improve the competition.

If the GAA removed the provincial championships from the All Ireland series it would be a disaster for numerous reasons.

Champions League style is a banker for dead rubber games and zero attendances.

Antrim v Kerry anyone?

The best thing the GAA could do away with seeding in the provincials even bring in a backdoor in them to even them up as much as possible.

And run a secondary 32 county open draw where the final 4 meet the provincial winners in the 1/4 finals

Everyone can win the All Ireland in the exact same number of games.

Imagine Kerry & Cork knocked out early in the open draw,That would make the Munster Final a real do or die game.

The Lost Sheep

zombieHanalei wrote: »

I love how people suggest playing the provincial championships off before the league; what's the point of having them at all if they have no bearing on the championship itself? It would be pointless to have them at all.

I'm a Limerick man, it's safe to say I will NEVER see my county win the All-Ireland football championship. But I had a strong interest in the Munster football championship in the last decade or so, my county had a realistic chance of winning that and came agonisingly close on a few occasions, we've kind of fallen away in the last few years but hopefully we'll be right back in the mix in Munster in the not too distant future.

Take away the Munster football championship and what is there to play for anymore? An All-Ireland B championship perhaps? Better than nothing but wouldn't come close to a Munster title. And I know it's not just myself that feels that way, it's happened a few times over the last few years in Limerick and other counties that players withdraw from the panel once their county gets knocked out of their provincial championship because a qualifier run with no realistic chance of winning the All-Ireland just has no appeal to them.

Disbanding the provincial championships could be a dangerous move as smaller counties could well struggle to secure the commitment of all their best players. And besides; I like that I've seen Leitrim and Sligo win meaningful titles in my lifetime, I can just about remember Clare's title in 1992, it was great to see Westmeath and Laois make breakthroughs in 2003/2004, and we all felt sickened for Louth when they were denied in 2010. Every few years the provincial system throws up a fairytale for a team who pretty much has little to no chance of going on to claim Sam Maguire, would be a shame to lose that forever.

One thing I am in favour of though; the provincial boundaries need to be redrawn. Four "provinces" of 8 makes so much more sense.

Moving counties around to make even numbers of 8 is silly IMO. Keep provincial championships but separate them from All Ireland to a degree but don't play them in January prior to the league as that diminishes their prestige etc. Make the primary competition of the year primarily a league based competition with cup competition also there. Have provincial championships as separate with reward of place in latter stages of all Ireland if county has already not got a place through main competition.

Prop Joe wrote: »

If the GAA removed the provincial championships from the All Ireland series it would be a disaster for numerous reasons.

Champions League style is a banker for dead rubber games and zero attendances.

Antrim v Kerry anyone?

The best thing the GAA could do away with seeding in the provincials even bring in a backdoor in them to even them up as much as possible.

And run a secondary 32 county open draw where the final 4 meet the provincial winners in the 1/4 finals

Everyone can win the All Ireland in the exact same number of games.

Imagine Kerry & Cork knocked out early in the open draw,That would make the Munster Final a real do or die game.

Keep provincial championships but separate from all Ireland with reward for winners in all Ireland series. A league based competition guarantees games for counties and makes it much easier to schedule games for club players..

Prop Joe

I'm sorry but a league or group systems wont work ( although a group of 3 could) the simple reason is what makes our championships so good is it's knockout every game.You lose your first game you are OUT of the provincial LOSE the second and you are gone for a whole year.

Thats what makes it so good. I was nearly in tears after watching Wexford knock out Clare last week and i have no connections to either county.

League systems or group games eliminate the underdog

The Lost Sheep

Prop Joe wrote: »

I'm sorry but a league or group systems wont work ( although a group of 3 could) the simple reason is what makes our championships so good is it's knockout every game.You lose your first game you are OUT of the provincial LOSE the second and you are gone for a whole year.

Thats what makes it so good. I was nearly in tears after watching Wexford knock out Clare last week and i have no connections to either county.

League systems or group games eliminate the underdog

There is still shocks in a league system. The underdog still has the shot at winning competitions and knockout every game just doesn't give players/coaches the rewards for all the effort they put in for 6/7 months.

Prop Joe

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There is still shocks in a league system. The underdog still has the shot at winning competitions and knockout every game just doesn't give players/coaches the rewards for all the effort they put in for 6/7 months.

How many games do they deserve after 7 months of training 3,4,5,10?

If Kerry/Dublin were knocked out early in the championship i doubt you would hear anyone crying that they put in all that effort for 2 games.

Whatever system you have you will always have teams at the bottom.

The Lost Sheep

Prop Joe wrote: »

How many games do they deserve after 7 months of training 3,4,5,10?

If Kerry/Dublin were knocked out early in the championship i doubt you would hear anyone crying that they put in all that effort for 2 games.

Whatever system you have you will always have teams at the bottom.

Of course whatever system you have will always have teams at the bottom but when so much in the current system depends on luck of the draw etc it just isn't fair. They train to a very professional level for very few games. That just makes no sense.

Prop Joe

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Of course whatever system you have will always have teams at the bottom but when so much in the current system depends on luck of the draw etc it just isn't fair. They train to a very professional level for very few games. That just makes no sense.

Luck of the draw is good i think,I would love to see seeding removed from both Munster and Leinster also that if you are drawn in the pre-lim in Ulster you cant be drawn in it for 5 years.

I can barely think of any sporting competition where every team sets out on an even scale.

I agree that the provincials need tweaking and the schedule needs tightening up but massive changes are not needed

Fr Tod Umptious

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Moving counties around to make even numbers of 8 is silly IMO. Keep provincial championships but separate them from All Ireland to a degree but don't play them in January prior to the league as that diminishes their prestige etc. Make the primary competition of the year primarily a league based competition with cup competition also there. Have provincial championships as separate with reward of place in latter stages of all Ireland if county has already not got a place through main competition.

Keep provincial championships but separate from all Ireland with reward for winners in all Ireland series. A league based competition guarantees games for counties and makes it much easier to schedule games for club players..

Why is 8 x 4 silly ?

It makes perfect sense from a fixture making point of view.

Each team plays the same amount of games to get to an All Ireland QF or get knocked out.

It's far less extreme that any "play the provincials in December then seed the 3rd placed team in each province in the third last group in a champions league home and away round robin format creating 6 quarter finalists where the losers go into the B championship etc etc etc" BS.

nice_guy80

the FA Cup, Champions League, World Cup qualifying and finals, Euro qualifying finals, Europa Cup all rely on luck of the draw

The Lost Sheep

Prop Joe wrote: »

Luck of the draw is good i think,I would love to see seeding removed from both Munster and Leinster also that if you are drawn in the pre-lim in Ulster you cant be drawn in it for 5 years.

I can barely think of any sporting competition where every team sets out on an even scale.

I agree that the provincials need tweaking and the schedule needs tightening up but massive changes are not needed

Any totally league based competition starts where teams set out on an even scale. Take soccer premiership for example Each team starts out knowing team at end of 38 games with most points wins.
I think more than the provinces need tweaking. Massive changes are needed as the current situation is not working.

Prop Joe

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why is 8 x 4 silly ?

It makes perfect sense from a fixture making point of view.

Each team plays the same amount of games to get to an All Ireland QF or get knocked out.

It's far less extreme that any "play the provincials in December then seed the 3rd placed team in each province in the third last group in a champions league home and away round robin format creating 6 quarter finalists where the losers go into the B championship etc etc etc" BS.

Who would you move out of interest? to create the 8 x 4 ?

Laois to Munster is a popular one but that would in turn just weaken both Munster and Leinster

The Lost Sheep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why is 8 x 4 silly ?

It makes perfect sense from a fixture making point of view.

Each team plays the same amount of games to get to an All Ireland QF or get knocked out.

It's far less extreme that any "play the provincials in December then seed the 3rd placed team in each province in the third last group in a champions league home and away round robin format creating 6 quarter finalists where the losers go into the B championship etc etc etc" BS.

Moving counties around to make up non existent regions is just pointless and detracts from history of the provincial championships. While I agree we need none of the BS that is in your last paragraph something needs to be done but a step up from just making 4 even knockout cups then the qualifiers

Prop Joe

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Massive changes are needed as the current situation is not working.

That's where we are all wrong,The current system IS working,We are just looking at ways to improve it. A league based championship would be bonkers in all fairness who the hell would go to these games?

zombieHanalei

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Moving counties around to make even numbers of 8 is silly IMO. Keep provincial championships but separate them from All Ireland to a degree but don't play them in January prior to the league as that diminishes their prestige etc. Make the primary competition of the year primarily a league based competition with cup competition also there. Have provincial championships as separate with reward of place in latter stages of all Ireland if county has already not got a place through main competition.

Nothing silly at all about creating an even playing field, makes perfect sense. Each team would have to win the same number of games to win a provincial championship.

A league based competition; we already have that in the National league!

And "have the provincial championships as separate with a reward of a place in the latter stages of the All-Ireland"; that's pretty much exactly what they have right now!!

Win your province? Advance to All-Ireland quarter finals.
Provincial runner up? Advance to final round of qualifiers.
Lost your provincial semi final? Enter the second round of qualifiers.
Otherwise, in to the first round of qualifiers you go.

As it is, every game matters as there is a consequence for losing. You will either end up in the qualifiers or your year will be over. League format guarantees some dead rubbers in the latter rounds.

Biggest issue right now is a perceived lack of competitive games. Dublin have no real competition in Leinster, Cork and Kerry only have each other in Munster; a league format will not prevent mismatches; the only solution there is to introduce tiered championships like we have in hurling, but that wouldn't seem entirely fair on smaller counties either.

A positive step would be to revive the Tommy Murphy Cup, that kept the weaker counties out of the All-Ireland qualifiers and gave the competing teams a realistic chance of a national title. But it was cancelled for a reason, the counties involved never really took to it. Not unanimously anyway, the Tommy Murphy cup was a great idea in my opinion but ultimately it's legacy so far has been to prove that the appetite for tiered competitions really doesn't exist for smaller counties.

Fr Tod Umptious

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Moving counties around to make up non existent regions is just pointless and detracts from history of the provincial championships. While I agree we need none of the BS that is in your last paragraph something needs to be done but a step up from just making 4 even knockout cups then the qualifiers

How is it pointless ?

The point of it is to even up the championship.

Why should the way you win an All Ireland be determined by some pre-Norman geographical division of the island ?

8 x 4 is the simplest way to even up the championship

Fr Tod Umptious

Prop Joe wrote: »

Who would you move out of interest? to create the 8 x 4 ?

Laois to Munster is a popular one but that would in turn just weaken both Munster and Leinster

As a rough outline

North
Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Tyrone, Monaghan, Fermanagh

East
Cavan, Louth, Meath, Deublin, Westmeath, Kildare, Offaly, Wicklow

South
Carlow, Wexford, Cork, Kerry, Waterford, Tipp, Limerick, Laois

West
Clare, Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Longford, London

No Kilkenny (replaced by London) and no NY

zombieHanalei

Potential new provincial structure, to borrow from the example in USA sports we could have 4 regional conferences;

NORTH (Ulster Cup); ANT, ARM, DER, DOW, FER, MON, CAV, TYR.
EAST (Leinster Cup); DUB, KLD, WES, MEA, LAO, OFF, WIC, LOU.
SOUTH (Munster Cup); KER, COR, LIM, TIP, WAT, CAR, WEX, KLK.
WEST (Connacht Cup); CLA, GAL, MAY, SLI, LEI, ROS, LFD, DON.


Biggest sticking point; Clare, Donegal, Longford, Wexford, Kilkenny and Carlow understandably may not be too happy with having to move, so ultimately assigning counties to new divisions would be a major sticking point as I'd imagine the general feeling would be "We fully support new 8 team divisions so long as we are not one of the teams shunted into a new province".

Would never get the required support but would make sense. Certainly a much better alternative to the proposed "insert teams defeated in the first rounds of Leinster and Ulster into Connacht and Munster to balance up the numbers" idea that the Football Review Committee proposed (I think that's what they're called?).


EDIT: Basically, what Fr Tod said above! (great minds....)

The Lost Sheep

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Nothing silly at all about creating an even playing field, makes perfect sense. Each team would have to win the same number of games to win a provincial championship.

A league based competition; we already have that in the National league!

And "have the provincial championships as separate with a reward of a place in the latter stages of the All-Ireland"; that's pretty much exactly what they have right now!!

Win your province? Advance to All-Ireland quarter finals.
Provincial runner up? Advance to final round of qualifiers.
Lost your provincial semi final? Enter the second round of qualifiers.
Otherwise, in to the first round of qualifiers you go.

As it is, every game matters as there is a consequence for losing. You will either end up in the qualifiers or your year will be over. League format guarantees some dead rubbers in the latter rounds.

Biggest issue right now is a perceived lack of competitive games. Dublin have no real competition in Leinster, Cork and Kerry only have each other in Munster; a league format will not prevent mismatches; the only solution there is to introduce tiered championships like we have in hurling, but that wouldn't seem entirely fair on smaller counties either.

A positive step would be to revive the Tommy Murphy Cup, that kept the weaker counties out of the All-Ireland qualifiers and gave the competing teams a realistic chance of a national title. But it was cancelled for a reason, the counties involved never really took to it. Not unanimously anyway, the Tommy Murphy cup was a great idea in my opinion but ultimately it's legacy so far has been to prove that the appetite for tiered competitions really doesn't exist for smaller counties.

Change main competition to a league based competition with equal start for everyone and no luck of draw determining the winner.
So what if there is a small number of dead rubbers. Better that than an unequal championship which is what exists now. I disagree with moving counties to make even numbers for provincial championships as counties then competing in made up regions/no history etc
I would agree with reviving Tommy Murphy Cup but don't restrict counties from the qualifiers.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

How is it pointless ?

The point of it is to even up the championship.

Why should the way you win an All Ireland be determined by some pre-Norman geographical division of the island ?

8 x 4 is the simplest way to even up the championship

Its pointless as these no regions have no history are not the same as the provincial championships and doesn't make things better IMO

BrianBoru00

what about keeping the seeding but introducing a round robin for weaker teams.
E.g. in Munster - Cork & Kerry are in the semi finals and their opponents will be the top two after a league / round robin section between Limerick/Waterford/Tipperary/Clare.

In Connacht - london / new york games as per usual and then a 5 team round robin with top two into the final or round robin with 3 weaker teams i.e. 2 games each with top two into semi finals against seeded teams.

Leinster Dublin seeded in one semi final, Kildare & Meath in another semi and the remaining 8 weaker teams play two groups of 4 with three games each - winners of each group face each other and the winner of that is into the semi finals - open draw for semi finals.

Ulster -has been very evenly matched for the last few years - say Fermanagh , Antrim and Cavan play round robin with top two into the quarter finals.

The advantage would be more games, more competitive games and the "weaker" teams would be "Championship ready" by the time they meet better opposition and should be more able to match them.

Does it then put the stronger counties at a disadvantage? slightly but a more competitive championship would emerge overall.

zombieHanalei

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Change main competition to a league based competition with equal start for everyone and no luck of draw determining the winner.
So what if there is a small number of dead rubbers. Better that than an unequal championship which is what exists now. I disagree with moving counties to make even numbers for provincial championships as counties then competing in made up regions/no history etc
I would agree with reviving Tommy Murphy Cup but don't restrict counties from the qualifiers.

But are the dead rubbers not the main problem? As long as all 32 counties are in the competition it will be an unequal championship. How do you give everyone an equal start and an equal number of games while not moving the provincial boundaries?

I see this as a little pointless in a way as no matter what you, I or anyone else proposes it's going to have its flaws! Each answer will just lead to more questions.

trav1963

Prop Joe wrote: »

If the GAA removed the provincial championships from the All Ireland series it would be a disaster for numerous reasons.

Champions League style is a banker for dead rubber games and zero attendances.

Antrim v Kerry anyone?

The best thing the GAA could do away with seeding in the provincials even bring in a backdoor in them to even them up as much as possible.

And run a secondary 32 county open draw where the final 4 meet the provincial winners in the 1/4 finals

Everyone can win the All Ireland in the exact same number of games.

Imagine Kerry & Cork knocked out early in the open draw,That would make the Munster Final a real do or die game.

I am a Louth supporter. Nearly every year we play Westmeath in Leinster. Win or lose its boring at this stage. The chance to see Louth play Kerry would be great. Come to think of it, I have never seen that fixture in a competitive match.

Prop Joe

zombieHanalei wrote: »

A positive step would be to revive the Tommy Murphy Cup, that kept the weaker counties out of the All-Ireland qualifiers and gave the competing teams a realistic chance of a national title.

I think a league title is what they aim for these days. I would bet that Tipp or Clare are alot happier where they are now in the All Ireland series than winning a Tommy Murphy Cup

Fr Tod Umptious

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its pointless as these no regions have no history are not the same as the provincial championships and doesn't make things better IMO

Prior to 2001 the back door had no history

Prior to a few years ago Galway and Antrim playing in Leinster Hurling Championship had no history

Your league proposals have no history


At the moment we have 4 provincial (regional) championships with 4 different structures, and the winner of each ends up in the same place, an All Ireland QF.

We also have a back door system where a team from Munster or Caonnaught can enter Rnd2 after playing and losing one game, but a team from Leinster or Ulster has to play at least 2 games, and possibly 3, to get to Rnd 2.

We also have a situation in the back door where the Leinster and Ulster preliminary losers and winners potentially enter at Rnd 1.

How does an 8 x 4 not make the above better ?

Prop Joe

Connacht

Let New York enter twice at either side of the draw to give an even 8 to the Provence plus the second game to improve New York's competitiveness.

Ulster

Same as now but if you are drawn in the Pre-Lim you can't be drawn in it again for 5 years

Leinster

As is with no seeding

Munster

No Seeding , and a 4th QF

(A) Kerry v Clare

(B) Cork v Tipp

(C)Limerick v Waterford

4th QF - Loser of Tie A v Tie B

An open draw then to run parallel to the provincials with the final 4 meeting the 4 provincial winners in the QF's.


Keeps the provincial's and actually increases there importance,Plus gives every team the same chance to win Sam.

Prop Joe

Connacht


2 X Groups of 3- Play each other once (2 games each)

Leitrim ............ Roscommon
Mayo ............. Sligo
London .............. Galway

Top 2 each group advance to Semi's

3 Games to reach Provincial Final


Munster

2 X Groups of 3- Play each other once (2 games each)

Cork .......... Kerry
Tipp ............. Clare
W'Ford .......... Limerick

Top 2 each group advance to Semi's

3 Games to reach Provincial Final

Leinster

4 Groups of 3 - Play each other once (2 games each)

Wicklow......... New York .............. Wexford ............. Longford
Dublin ............ Carlow .............. Offaly .............. Kildare
Meath .......... Louth ............. W'meath ............... Laois

Top 2 advance to QF's -

4 Games to reach Provincial Final

Ulster

3 groups of 3 - Play each other once (2 games each)

Antrim ............ Derry .............. Fermanagh
Armagh ........... Donegal ................ Monaghan
Cavan .............. Down ........................... Tyrone

Top 2 in each group qualify

Next round

2 groups of 3 - Play each other once (2 games each) – Loser in first game plays in second group game

Donegal .......... Cavan
Armagh ............ Derry
Tyrone ............. Monaghan


Top of each group advance to Final

4 Games to reach Provincial Final



Why this system would work?,Every game is of relevance, 2 games in provincial series before qualifiers. Even (ish) amount of games in provinces.

The 4 provincial Winners go straight into the Quarter Finals for the sake of example say Kerry,Dublin,Monaghan & Mayo

The Backdoor draw for the All-Ireland Championship takes place after the Group stages of the provincial .32 teams in a hat (New York exempt as at the moment they don’ compete in the All-Ireland just the Provincial ,There could always be a pre-lim round if they wanted to compete)

So 32 teams in a hat,No seeding

The aim for each team in the championship is to make the last 4 to progress into the "Quarter Finals" If a provincial winner makes it to the last 4 of the Championship they get a bye in the Semi Final of the ""All Ireland" (Similar to what provincial winners get in Hurling). If the provincial winner loses in any round of the backdoor they still keeps there place in the Quarter Final of the "All Ireland


Pro’s

Keeping Provencial Boundaries

Even (ish) amount of games in province

Every single team starts as even in the backdoor and can win the All Ireland in 5 games through the back door

Extra incentive to win the provincial with a semi final berth up for grabs which gives an extra incentive to concentrate on provincial success – In our mock draw only Cork & Mayo had the safety net of the QF,Kerry,Kildare,Dublin,Monghan,Tyrone and Galway needed to win or there season was over.Huge Provencial finals

The Backdoor would run concurrently with the provincials making more games “Do or Die’s”

An open draw

More Structured Calender

More Championship Games but less league games

Bumper weekends in the Championship.

Enough free weekends in the Schedule not to impact on the Hurling Chamopionship

Every game is of importance, No dead rubbers in group stages with 3 teams

A maximum 4 weeks between any game in the championship, The aim would be to free up 2 weeks per month for club activity

More scope for media coverage with volume of games each weekend – Same amount of televised games so should not impact on attendance

Splitting games between Sat evening and Sundays to increase exposure

Con’s

Possibly losing a QF or two each year – Although there is precedent for this in Hurling, Also with more do or die games especially in Provencial later stages,Attendance increases in these should counter any loss of viewing numbers, Attendance, Media Exposure and Revenue


No replays in knockout stages except for Provencial Finals, AI Semi’s and Finals

More Inter- County Games in Summer – Possible problems facing club fixtures

Reducing the National League to 5 divisions of 6 (Div4 & 5 would have 7 teams)

NFL would also run from middle of Feb to April– The U21 All Irelands should run concurringly with the NFL,To be hosted Mid week up to AI Semi-Final stage


Championship starting 3 weeks earlier

trav1963

You cant beat a good discussion to complicate things. The provincial championships were fine 100 years ago when you travelled to games on bikes. IMO moving teams from leinster into connaught makes a joke of calling it the connaught championship. Why not call it group A,B,C,D....... In America you get east & west because of distances involved.

zombieHanalei

I don't really think New York should be in the championship at all, they're a logistical nightmare! I remember they got to the Ulster hurling final in 2006 and couldn't travel to Ireland due to work visa issues and fears that some players wouldn't be permitted back into USA when they returned. If a team doesn't have the capacity to travel then they shouldn't be involved.

salmocab

Not expecting much real change but it sure could do with it, I think only 2 of the provincial championships are really competitive, the Ulster football and the Munster hurling. After that Leinster hurling is improving with Galway coming in and now hopefully Wexford kicking on

trav1963

Prop Joe wrote: »

Leinster

4 Groups of 3 - Play each other once (2 games each)

Wicklow......... New York .............. Wexford ............. Longford
Dublin ............ Carlow .............. Offaly .............. Kildare
Meath .......... Louth ............. W'meath ............... Laois

Same games every year.

Prop Joe

trav1963 wrote: »

Prop Joe wrote: »

Leinster

4 Groups of 3 - Play each other once (2 games each)

Wicklow......... New York .............. Wexford ............. Longford
Dublin ............ Carlow .............. Offaly .............. Kildare
Meath .......... Louth ............. W'meath ............... Laois

Same games every year.

No just a mock draw

Prop Joe

zombieHanalei wrote: »

I don't really think New York should be in the championship at all, they're a logistical nightmare!

Teams love travelling to the U.S as it's a huge fundraiser for the counties with ex-pats

iDave

Some people want open draws. Some want Champions League formats. Some want old fashioned straight knockout. Some want provincial round robins. Some want provincials as separate competitions. Some want 4x8, some don't. Some want B championships, some don't.
Whelan says the provinces are stale and proposes keeping the provinces but a few changes.
God help the GAA sorting this out

zombieHanalei

Whatever about football, I think the current hurling championship format has worked very well since it's introduction in 2008. Actually the introduction of Antrim and Galway into the Leinster championship in 2009 has ensured a reasonably balanced and fair championship. In hurling the main debate in recent years has been over the league format.

trav1963

Prop Joe wrote: »

Teams love travelling to the U.S as it's a huge fundraiser for the counties with ex-pats

Championship not about fundraising. PS. In the 8 x 4 group system, where you finish in your group governs your seeding for following year = no dead rubbers.

bucketybuck

Forget your league formats, stop trying to complicate what should be a very simple competition.

Play the provincials as normal, they will remain a prestigious competition that all counties will want to win.

No back door bull****, once the provincial finals are over, you then simply have a 32 county open draw for the All Ireland.

Stop moaning about luck of the draw and trying to seed teams, that luck of the draw is what makes the damn thing a spectacle. Maybe Cork will draw Kerry in the first round, so be it, certainly won't be a dead rubber match thats for sure. The GAA has spent so much time trying to give everybody a game they have forgotten what a competition like this should be about.

The other benefit is that this format would free up a lot of weekends for the club players that have been treated disgracefully for far too long now.

Provincials first, then everybody into the hat for a straight knock out competition. Everybody wins with that.

The Lost Sheep

bucketybuck wrote: »

Forget your league formats, stop trying to complicate what should be a very simple competition.

Play the provincials as normal, they will remain a prestigious competition that all counties will want to win.

No back door bull****, once the provincial finals are over, you then simply have a 32 county open draw for the All Ireland.

Stop moaning about luck of the draw and trying to seed teams, that luck of the draw is what makes the damn thing a spectacle. Maybe Cork will draw Kerry in the first round, so be it, certainly won't be a dead rubber match thats for sure. The GAA has spent so much time trying to give everybody a game they have forgotten what a competition like this should be about.

The other benefit is that this format would free up a lot of weekends for the club players that have been treated disgracefully for far too long now.

Provincials first, then everybody into the hat for a straight knock out competition. Everybody wins with that.

That's less games for fans and players. Less games on tv, less income for GAA which goes to every part of GAA. Less exposure in time when other sports are seriously improving and there is much more competition than times past. Players are not going to burst themselves all year when a significant proportion get 2 games in their primary competition at that level. The inter county scene can still have a decent amount of games for each county with plenty of time set aside for club games but county coaches can dictate when club games are played within reason and there is proper management of competitions/fixtures by one central group

iDave

Anyone who thinks the provincials will remain prestigious outside of the championship is living in fantasy land.

zombieHanalei

iDave wrote: »

Anyone who thinks the provincials will remain prestigious outside of the championship is living in fantasy land.

A bit childish to accuse anyone who doesn't see things your way as living in fantasy land, especially with an issue like this which is far from straight forward, there are no right or wrong answers in this issue. Pretty much any suggested format will have strengths and weaknesses.

And on the provincial prestige; nobody suggesting it's even close to winning the All-Ireland, but outside the 4 or 5 teams with realistic hopes of winning the All-Ireland on any given year, there are a further 8 or so teams with a realistic chance of winning a provincial title. The bigger teams have their eyes on August/September, but for many teams a provincial title is a meaningful and realistic achievement.

Tombo2001

iDave wrote: »

Anyone who thinks the provincials will remain prestigious outside of the championship is living in fantasy land.

Couldnt disagree more.

In Connaught there is only one team at present who is playing for anything more than a provincial title.

Roscommon or Sligo could win a Connaught title. There is just no way, with respect, statistically negligible chance, that they might win an all-ireland. When they enter the championship, they are entering for the Connaught title.

To be honest, I'd say the same applies to Monaghan. With respect, if they win Ulster.....and then hypothetically got drawn against Dublin in the next round.....really they have no chance. And no disrespect to Monaghan because they punch above their weight (i.e. population) more than any other county in the country at present......but Dublin's population is twenty times larger, the match would be in Croke Park, and Dublin's funding is a vast multiple higher than Monaghan's would be.

From that point of view, if you are in a situation where the Ulster champions know they have more or less zero chance against the Leinster Champions, then the championsip is more than just stale; and the provincial championships (outside of Leinster) is the only thing keeping it alive.

bucketybuck

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That's less games for fans and players. Less games on tv, less income for GAA which goes to every part of GAA. Less exposure in time when other sports are seriously improving and there is much more competition than times past. Players are not going to burst themselves all year when a significant proportion get 2 games in their primary competition at that level. The inter county scene can still have a decent amount of games for each county with plenty of time set aside for club games but county coaches can dictate when club games are played within reason and there is proper management of competitions/fixtures by one central group

It would be less games. The difference is that I don't see that as a bad thing at all, more isn't always better.

And I laugh at the idea lads won't burst themselves for 2 games. The ones that want to win will, same as it ever was.

threeball

The entire system needs an overhaul.

Every county having a 50,000 white elephant stadium is a joke.
Each province including leinster should have one mini croke park, 45,000 seater to be used by every team in the province. Every county should have a 10,000 seater/terrace high quality stadium for league.

Play the provincials in March/April instead of the FBD league etc.
Start the league in April and play on home and away basis at a rate of max two matches per month.
Play the championship on a open draw knockout basis throughout the league.
Have one week per month for club championship, most clubs do without their county players for league but should have an option on them up to 3 times per year.
If a player gets injured along the way its hard lines, could have happened in training anyway. Cut the training at inter county down to 1 to 2 sessions per week max.
Championship games would be played in appropriate sized grounds with the quarters and some semis being played in the mini crokers.

Regular games for players and supporters, regular income for Gaa. Teams will build a following. Good atmosphere in all league and championship matches. Club players can plan their summer. The club championships won't be stalled for months. Managers will have a better chance to sort out their team and progress further especially the weaker teams.

The entire thing could become very followable outside of Ireland also as you'd have a team to support from March til Sept/Oct and a good distraction in the soccer/rugby off season.

The Lost Sheep

bucketybuck wrote: »

It would be less games. The difference is that I don't see that as a bad thing at all, more isn't always better.

And I laugh at the idea lads won't burst themselves for 2 games. The ones that want to win will, same as it ever was.

Yes more isn't always better but where the counties put so much into training with everything going so professional to have the competition format very amateur is ridiculous.

threeball wrote: »

The entire system needs an overhaul.

Every county having a 50,000 white elephant stadium is a joke.
Each province including leinster should have one mini croke park, 45,000 seater to be used by every team in the province. Every county should have a 10,000 seater/terrace high quality stadium for league.

Play the provincials in March/April instead of the FBD league etc.
Start the league in April and play on home and away basis at a rate of max two matches per month.
Play the championship on a open draw knockout basis throughout the league.
Have one week per month for club championship, most clubs do without their county players for league but should have an option on them up to 3 times per year.
If a player gets injured along the way its hard lines, could have happened in training anyway. Cut the training at inter county down to 1 to 2 sessions per week max.
Championship games would be played in appropriate sized grounds with the quarters and some semis being played in the mini crokers.

Regular games for players and supporters, regular income for Gaa. Teams will build a following. Good atmosphere in all league and championship matches. Club players can plan their summer. The club championships won't be stalled for months. Managers will have a better chance to sort out their team and progress further especially the weaker teams.

The entire thing could become very followable outside of Ireland also as you'd have a team to support from March til Sept/Oct and a good distraction in the soccer/rugby off season.

Agree with a lot of that.
But Every county doesn't have a 50000 stadium. Only in Munster is that the case and all but Waterford don't have such a stadium.
Don't see what ever system is put in place will see inter county teams only training 1-2 times a week. Just wont happen