After the Tuam Babies Scandal

Buzz Killington the third

As if it wasn't enough already

Judge Yvonne Murphy has been annoiucned as the chairperson of the Commission of Inquiry into mother and baby homes.

The institutions came back into focus in recent months after fresh controversy over a mass grave in Galway where it is thought hundreds of children may be buried.

A Commission of Investigation is being set up - but the terms of reference for that inquiry will not now be known until the Autumn at the earliest.

Judge Murphy was also appointed to advise on a redress scheme for women who underwent symphysiotomy.

Meanwhile an inter-departmental report has also been published.

It says the remains of 474 dead children were transferred to medical schools between 1940 and 1965 without the consent of their families.

The report also finds that nearly 2,000 children from the homes were put up for adoption in the United States - with little or no records on parental consent.

Source: http://www.newstalk.ie/Government-to-announce-lead-on-mother-and-baby-home

It's so sad and sickening

WilyCoyote

Truly sickening. But it was the ethos at the time.

Bipolar Joe

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Truly sickening. But it was the ethos at the time.

See, I don't buy excuses like that. "Racism was OK, back then!" is another one. If it was OK, why was it kept a secret?

darkpagandeath

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

See, I don't buy excuses like that. "Racism was OK, back then!" is another one. If it was OK, why was it kept a secret?

Because the organisation that created this ethos is still very much a power player in Ireland. And even if anything is done and redress is awarded the state will foot the bill as all assets will have been sold off and the organisation will cry poverty.

WilyCoyote

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

See, I don't buy excuses like that. "Racism was OK, back then!" is another one. If it was OK, why was it kept a secret?

Society evolves, ethea evolve, culture evolves. Get it?

Bipolar Joe

It still doesn't answer the question.

Red Pepper

Is that 474 of the 800 babies who died in Tuam that were transferred to medical schools?

Buzz Killington the third

Red Pepper wrote: »

Is that 474 of the 800 babies who died in Tuam that were transferred to medical schools?

I don't think so. As far as I know it's separate to the 800 which were buried in Tuam.

Mr. Incognito

It depends on whether anyone can be brought to Justice over it.

Hundreds of dead babies is sad, however, if all the protaganists are dead you could spend millions on an investigation and not get anything but heresay

Most of the people complaining will be back looking at kitten videos on youtube in twenty minutes.

1965 is 50 years ago. Most of these go further back, much further back.

Sadly everyone directly affected is dead, the babies and their mothers are dead. By the time any investigation is concluded they will be dead judging by the pace of previous investigations.

Not trying to be heartless but what restitution can they get by these investigations. None that I can see.

I would rather see resources put into homelessness services, and children in care NOW, TODAY who are chronically undervalued, underfunded and cast aside by the same bodies expressing shock over these historical revelations and while everyone is caught up in the shock and horror of fifty years ago no-one is putting pressure on the government over the contemporary scandals that we CAN do something about

drumswan

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Society evolves, ethea evolve, culture evolves. Get it?

The holocaust was sickening but sure that was the ethos at the time :rolleyes:

Mr. Incognito

drumswan wrote: »

The holocaust was sickening but sure that was the ethos at the time :rolleyes:

You lose the internet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

drumswan

Wow Godwins Law, I'd never heard of that, thanks guy.

_Redzer_

This was happening all over the country. The more they start digging, the more they will inevitably find.

I don't know how the church hasn't been dragged through the courts or how there hasn't been massive uproar from the government to pressure the Pope for answers. But I guess it's not as important as a concert.

_Redzer_

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Because the organisation that created this ethos is still very much a power player in Ireland. And even if anything is done and redress is awarded the state will foot the bill as all assets will have been sold off and the organisation will cry poverty.

Ha! They're about as poor as Smaug from the Hobbit films is, and equal in temperament and self-entitlement.

Red Pepper

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

It depends on whether anyone can be brought to Justice over it.

If it's another nail in the coffin of that criminal organisation known as Vatican Inc and it's influence on Irish society, then it will be absolutely worthwhile.

_Redzer_

Red Pepper wrote: »

If it's another nail in the coffin of that criminal organisation known as Vatican Inc and it's influence on Irish society, then it will be absolutely worthwhile.

I hope they get prosecuted, their assists seized to foot the bill of their crimes, their organisation taxed just like any other business, and any foothold of influence they ever had in the state be permanently severed.

If I had an organisation and all this was discovered, everything would be seized from it, the organisation would be shot to pieces and left to die, and thousands involved would be thrown in jail for very long periods of time. I don't get that because they're "holy", or to put more accurately, feign the image of being holy, they get away with it and people shrug and say that was the way it was done.

Absolutely sickening.

4Sticks

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

It still doesn't answer the question.

Go home and ask grandma and grandad why they cared so much about what the neighbors thought when your mother or aunt got pregnant out of wedlock. Because without that universal moral basepoint none of this stuff could have happened.

A better question to ask - what do we accept as normal today that in 50 years time people will look back on and wonder - what were we like ?

_Redzer_

4Sticks wrote: »

Go home and ask grandma and grandad why they cared so much about what the neighbors thought when your mother or aunt got pregnant out of wedlock. Because without that universal moral basepoint none of this stuff could have happened.

A better question to ask - what do we accept as normal today that in 50 years time people will look back on and wonder - what were we like ?

And who brought and enforced this "universal moral base point"? Yep. The Catholic Church.

I actually had this pathetic attempt to justify what happened in the past. It wasn't right then and it sure as fúck still not right now, and we should bring the party responsible to justice.

4Sticks

Our society at large accepted the dogma. The church could rely on us to self police .
I despise the CC but they they only did what they do. Our society swallowed it with vigour.

Why?

It's important to know for the sake of the future.

Acedia.

4Sticks wrote: »

Go home and ask grandma and grandad why they cared so much about what the neighbors thought when your mother or aunt got pregnant out of wedlock. Because without that universal moral basepoint none of this stuff could have happened.

A better question to ask - what do we accept as normal today that in 50 years time people will look back on and wonder - what were we like ?

It's only a matter of time before the first world realises that the unnecessary suffering and death we cause to farm animals today is outrageous. We'll be looked back on with disgust as hedonistic savages. Mark my words...

darkpagandeath

Why does RTE keep calling babies illegitimate ? have we not even progressed past this ?

S.O

In my view it was a lot the families at fault back in those days for well for sending their daughters away to mothers/babies homes or sent away to the magdelene laundries ,my mother who would be in her early 60s now, at the time the film about the magdelene laundries was released, she told me about when she was growing up- there was one teenage girl who lived on the same street as her, who got pregnant in her mid teens, the next thing the local priest went to visit the house and after that the girls parents sent her away after the priests visit, I can never understand people who blindly follow religious beliefs without thought or question.

WilyCoyote

drumswan wrote: »

Wow Godwins Law, I'd never heard of that, thanks guy.

Ignorance of the law (Godwins or other) is no excuse.

BANNED!

_Redzer_

4Sticks wrote: »

Our society at large accepted the dogma. The church could rely on us to self police .
I despise the CC but they they only did what they do. Our society swallowed it with vigour.

Why?

It's important to know for the sake of the future.

The church ruled like a king and made everyone think that way. The blame will always fall on them largely because they created that mentality. Why would the average person just start thinking that if priests weren't condemning people in public if they broke their rules of conformity in the first place? The public was horribly brainwashed by the church. It's no surprise we're much more accepting of single mothers and the likes, now that the church is dying here.

Bipolar Joe

Godwin's Law doesn't count on all things. It's definitely not a case "OMG, you said Hitler, you lose the Internet!" Obviously when talking about institutionalised, large scale murder, Hitler will be a comparison.

4Sticks

_Redzer_ wrote: »

It's no surprise we're much more accepting of single mothers and the likes, now that the church is dying here.

I see it in reverse. The church died when we choose to let think for ourselves. The bitter social lesson from history I believe is not to be "told" anything again.

4Sticks

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Godwin's Law doesn't count on all things. It's definitely not a case "OMG, you said Hitler, you lose the Internet!" Obviously when talking about institutionalised, large scale murder, Hitler will be a comparison.

I tend to agree that Godwin should not apply on this thread. Germans allowed themselves to stray down a dreadful path for them and the world by surrendering power to the Nazis.
As did Irish society in surrendering power to pedophiles in dresses who peddled fairy tales about god.

WilyCoyote

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

See, I don't buy excuses like that. "Racism was OK, back then!" is another one. If it was OK, why was it kept a secret?

You may, or may not, realise that the world was flat, that the earth was the centre of the universe, that any man-made object heavier than air could not fly, that witches were real, that hanging/burning said witches was OK/would save the neighbourhood, that Enda Kenny was the Saviour of Ireland, that Garth Brooks would play 5 nights etc.
These were all truths once.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

_Redzer_ wrote: »

The church ruled like a king and made everyone think that way. The blame will always fall on them largely because they created that mentality. Why would the average person just start thinking that if priests weren't condemning people in public if they broke their rules of conformity in the first place? The public was horribly brainwashed by the church. It's no surprise we're much more accepting of single mothers and the likes, now that the church is dying here.

They were facilitated in being able to have so much dominance and influence though. There are many factors to that, the influence of Victorian England concerning our attitude to institutions being one; the conflation of Catholicism and Irishness by politicians like DeValera being another; poverty, starvation and disenfranchisement of the general population during the 19th and early 20th century making the orders one of few viable lifepaths for much of the population being a third, the relative isolation of the country for a long time being another. There's a reason why when we started having more economic and physical freedom between here and other countries the influence of the church started to wane and these abuses started to emerge.

I think it was a perfect storm situation here, which is why things seem to have been considerably worse than in other countries where there was strong church influence. The church is one (very very very significant) factor among many. But simplifying it down to 'the church brainwashed otherwise decent people and that's why everything happened' is a cop out.

4Sticks

Branson Faithful Ration wrote: »

simplifying it down to 'the church brainwashed otherwise decent people and that's why everything happened' is a cop out.

Yes. We must hold on to that and watch it never happens again.

Shakespeare's Sister

Even though there were people who helped prop the church up, the original ideals trickled down from the (very powerful) church.
I acknowledge wider society's role, but I don't like when people focus on it to the point of deflecting blame from the actual abusers.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Magaggie wrote: »

Even though there were people who helped prop the church up, the original ideals trickled down from the (very powerful) church.
I acknowledge wider society's role, but I don't like when people focus on it to the point of deflecting blame from the actual abusers.

There can definitely be an agenda behind calling for acknowledging wider society's role, most obviously when the RCC itself does it. Just to be clear I do know that the church and its dogma has inflicted massive trauma on the population of this country and is still doing damage -you don't need to look any further than the sorry state of abortion law. But at the same time, the fact that the situation around abortion is something of an an anomaly among European countries with Catholic majorities speaks for itself.

Some anthropologist had a quote along the lines of "religious beliefs are not necessarily discarded when they are no longer held to be true so much as when they are no longer appropriate and useful".