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***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,525 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Irish water is a semi state, basically a step away from a private company.

    Why would you give such information to a private company? They do not need your PPS #, what are they going to check it against? For it to be of any use they would need access to the PPS number database, along with address details. Why not give them access to your tax details etc.

    Why not, because they do not have the right to this information.

    They will need to come up with another plan as this one won't work.

    Seems as if this could be in breach of data protection laws.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,971 ✭✭✭Holsten


    Why do they need my PPS?

    Q1. How many people currently live at this address? (Adults & Children)

    That's all they need to calculate allowances.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Irish water is a semi state, basically a step away from a private company.

    Why would you give such information to a private company? They do not need your PPS #, what are they going to check it against? For it to be of any use they would need access to the PPS number database, along with address details. Why not give them access to your tax details etc.

    Why not, because they do not have the right to this information.

    They will need to come up with another plan as this one won't work.

    Seems as if this could be in breach of data protection laws.

    This is what I don't get.

    The collective Irish government should have all of this data anyway. Between Revenue and the LPT folks and the PRTB. It should be absolutely trivial for all data sources to cross reference with one another. I mean, that's just the tip of the ice berg - An Post, the TV licensing database, the GNIB office....should all be very easy.

    If someone came around asking for my PPS number I would assume they were running some sort of scam, because any legit representative of the Irish government would already have that information.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Holsten wrote: »
    Why do they need my PPS?

    Q1. How many people currently live at this address? (Adults & Children)

    That's all they need to calculate allowances.

    But that's rubbish.

    Lots of people don't have PPS numbers. Foreign students, for example. Shall they not bathe or drink water?

    Lots of people have PPS numbers but don't resides in Ireland. Giving them a PPS number, even if no other household is claiming that PPS number, doesn't mean that the person actually resides in the home. Everyone off doing a J1 or emigrating for a few years still has a PPS number.

    Finally, as with any large government system, there will be errors. Will there be a PIN style authentication system? What's to stop a former landlord who has my PPS from claiming me, or what happens when I move and the letter meant to update my address is lost? If it's anything like LPT (which I paid for months, despite not owning any property) there will be no checks to ensure any of the information is correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    Thought it was a household water charge and not per person? Also, if you have pets, they consume water, what are people supposed to do with them? Not give them something to drink? Not wash them?

    It's a bloody farce, won't be giving my PPS number to any water company.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,913 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Irish Water is included in the new Social Welfare and Pensions bill 2014 as an approved body for PPSN purposes.

    So, in the interests of lean government and cutting costs, I will politely refuse IW my PPSN but will refer them to DSP or Revenue who have that information.

    I hate double jobbing!


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,316 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Also, if you have pets, they consume water, what are people supposed to do with them? Not give them something to drink? Not wash them?
    Pay for the water?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    Rabble not giving them my PPS rabble rabble not paying blah blah.

    You guys are funny. Of course you are. Unless you're a dirty student scrounging of mammy you're paying and that's it.

    Freaking internet warriors. And the one wanting to see a breakdown of how it's managed from top to bottom. Give me a break. Sure, you're a master of organisational design right? What the hell exactly do you plan to do with that info bar staring at it blankly?

    /rant


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Steady on. What will probably happen is

    1. Can we have your RSI number so we can give you the right allowances ?
    2. Yes - fine- here's your bill with allowances credited.
    3. No - fine - heres a bill with no allowances because you didn't want us to have your RSI number

    ... simple really ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭Daith


    trellheim wrote: »
    Steady on. What will probably happen is

    1. Can we have your RSI number so we can give you the right allowances ?
    2. Yes - fine- here's your bill with allowances credited.
    3. No - fine - heres a bill with no allowances because you didn't want us to have your RSI number

    ... simple really ?

    Houses have RSI numbers? It's not a bill per person in the house?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 829 ✭✭✭smellmepower


    No kids living here,not entitled to any allowances so won't be giving Denis O'Brien my PPS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    Mena wrote: »
    Rabble not giving them my PPS rabble rabble not paying blah blah.

    You guys are funny. Of course you are. Unless you're a dirty student scrounging of mammy you're paying and that's it.

    Freaking internet warriors. And the one wanting to see a breakdown of how it's managed from top to bottom. Give me a break. Sure, you're a master of organisational design right? What the hell exactly do you plan to do with that info bar staring at it blankly?

    /rant

    Jesus you are a bit hostile.

    Haven't seen anybody here say the won't pay, many have a problem with a company getting their hands on PPS details in order to pay a fcukin bill.

    If there is an allowance for kids and others stuff they need to come up with a better way getting the cost reduction to the end user........let me see like the revenue issuing tax credits to the value of the allowance. Anything other than me handing my PPS details to a company who have no legal right to it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    I have no problem giving them PPS and DD details. PPS is the only way to ensure households get the correct allowance per person. It's no big deal as far as I'm concerned.

    I don't understand this. The census has details of all households!


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Mena wrote: »
    Rabble not giving them my PPS rabble rabble not paying blah blah.

    You guys are funny. Of course you are. Unless you're a dirty student scrounging of mammy you're paying and that's it.

    Freaking internet warriors. And the one wanting to see a breakdown of how it's managed from top to bottom. Give me a break. Sure, you're a master of organisational design right? What the hell exactly do you plan to do with that info bar staring at it blankly?

    /rant

    Ah Enda's wee pet speaks.:pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    I for one am currently rereading the entire Dune series. I plan to live like a Fremen. Also I plan to walk without rhythm but that's unrelated to the water tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,573 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    When I lived in Spain, every Utility provider, Unelco, Inalsa, Financial Institutions, Satellite TV providers and telecoms,all those Service providers required one's NIF/CIF (Spanish PPS) before they would provide you with a service it is just how things are done ''out foreign''.
    But here in Ireland, given our love of privacy
    Given our Government's, Our Utilities and Financial companies ''Habit'' of data mismanagement, outright data protection breaches and overall incompetence.
    I can't see too many people rushing out to share their details!
    What is even more concerning for me, Is the excuse offered for Irish waters need for these details is to ensure everyone gets the ''correct allowance'' ie the Childrens water and so on.
    So by having these details, Irish Water can confirm they are correct via a cross check of a pre-existing database?
    The Dept of Social Protection's database maybe?
    Surely that is a breach of Data protection by the D.S.P?
    As I never authorised my data to be shared with an autonomous, totally incompetent and soon to be privatized quango?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    Give our PPS numbers to what will more than likely be a totally private company in the near future?
    banie01 wrote: »
    Given our Government's, Our Utilities and Financial companies ''Habit'' of data mismanagement, outright data protection breaches and overall incompetence.
    I can't see too many people rushing out to share their details!

    Agree. A recipe for fraud and multiple identity theft.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,433 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    I dont like the idea of IW. Are our water charges going to be used to pay some big dogs 150k a year? If that's the case the whole thing is a cod.
    I dont understand why they cant have a similar setup to the TV license. Hire x people for 1 month to send out annual letters and you pay in the post office. No allowances and a flat per house charge. It would still be cheaper because there will be no installation of meters and no top-dogs.
    And what happens if the people in IW decide they want a wage rise or bonus? Just pass the cost onto us?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    It's plain and simple why they will be asking for a pps number.

    If you are in an unmetered house, estate or in an apartment complex, and you refuse to pay, they can then deduct at source (seeing as turning off or reducing the pressure isn't an option to them)

    I hope the Irish people finally start standing up to these shower of pricks In govt tbh.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates



    Edit: Why does there always seem to be a vulture on this website just waiting to pounce on an OP for not giving their own opinion? Its gas.

    Agreed It's the most sanctimonious cheap - thanks harvesting - shot going and is still allowed .

    If a link starts a discussion, then game ball.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Mena wrote: »
    Rabble not giving them my PPS rabble rabble not paying blah blah.

    You guys are funny. Of course you are. Unless you're a dirty student scrounging of mammy you're paying and that's it.

    Freaking internet warriors. And the one wanting to see a breakdown of how it's managed from top to bottom. Give me a break. Sure, you're a master of organisational design right? What the hell exactly do you plan to do with that info bar staring at it blankly?

    /rant

    No, won't be, as it happens. The Good Lord invented wells and pumps and Lo, I got me one. Bite me Dob, you'll have to get your lunch money elsewhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    323 wrote: »
    Give our PPS numbers to what will more than likely be a totally private company in the near future?



    Agree. A recipe for fraud and multiple identity theft.

    Sure you give your PPS to banks and the like just to open an account. They are private companies too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭trancemuzic


    NO CONSENT – NO CONTRACT
    Irish Water are a private for-profit company: http://fliuch.org/cro – under EU/Irish law you cannot be forced into a contract with a private for-profit company.
    The meter is the contract.
    These forms in September are the contract.
    Do not allow a meter to be installed – if one has been installed remove it and send it back to Irish Water via registered post with No Consent No Contract.
    Do not fill out the forms in September – send them back with No Consent – No Contract.
    Irish Water ARE NOT a semi-state company. They DO NOT have the right to ask for your PPS Number – there are huge data privacy issues here.
    If the description of the forms coming in September is correct and there is a pre-ticked ‘Recurring Payment’ box then the form is null and void as pre-ticked boxes are illegal under EU/Irish law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    Sure you give your PPS to banks and the like just to open an account. They are private companies too.

    This is legal as it's covered by legislation - Return of Payments Regulations (S.I. No 136 of 2008)

    Handing your PPS details to this utility company is not covered by legislation as they are not "specified agents" of any government body, therefore it's illegal for them to seek it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,741 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    This has nothing to do with "allowances" folks

    It's to gather the necessary data so they can deduct it at source if you refuse to pay - in the same way as they did for the LPT/HHC.

    That's probably also why this whole farce was moved to the Department of Finance in this week's "reshuffle" too.

    To those talking about how it's illegal to request a PPS in this context... do you really think they won't just amend the relevant legislation if it does become an issue??


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    ......
    Do not allow a meter to be installed – if one has been installed remove it and send it back to Irish Water via registered post with No Consent No Contract.

    That's very dodgy advice -

    - you are telling people to work on a high pressure system not knowing their level of skill
    - you don't own the water pipe outside your gate
    - you don't own the meter
    - you don't have insurance for messing around with public footpaths
    - if you break up the footpath and someone falls over it, you will pay

    No doubt if someone tries it and injuries result, being the slithery sort they will try push the blame on a "person on boards"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    To those talking about how it's illegal to request a PPS in this context... do you really think they won't just amend the relevant legislation if it does become an issue??

    I've no problem if legislation is amended and it becomes legal. As for amending legislation, there are governments sponsored schemes around today and that have been around for years that break data protection laws. Nobody in government circles or civil service seems concerned enough to amend legislation, this might be different with Irish water because of the volumes of complaint likely to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭sammy37


    No, won't be, as it happens. The Good Lord invented wells and pumps and Lo, I got me one. Bite me Dob, you'll have to get your lunch money elsewhere.

    Fair play to you and I hope more people follow -I shall be doing something similar by gathering at least 50% of my water through a cheap rainwater system to feed my toilets, washing machine and garden so these people on the gravy train can find someone else to fund their lavish lifestyles.


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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,284 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    trellheim wrote: »
    Steady on. What will probably happen is

    1. Can we have your RSI number so we can give you the right allowances ?
    2. Yes - fine- here's your bill with allowances credited.
    3. No - fine - heres a bill with no allowances because you didn't want us to have your RSI number

    ... simple really ?

    That's fair enough if you have allowances to claim. I understand that they need some way of proving that there are X number of children at a particular address. But if there are only adults there are no allowances available, so there should be no need to know everyone's PPS number. Of course that doesn't address the inherent unfairness of the allowances being per household rather than per person. A person living alone gets exactly the same allowance as a house with half a dozen students sharing it. As long as the data protection issues are properly addressed I'd have no problem providing my and my wife's PPS numbers if it was to ensure that we each got our own allowances. But as there aren't individual allowances, I see no good reason why Irish Water should need the PPS numbers.


This discussion has been closed.
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