rules question

aubreym

came across this the other day & can't find it in the rule book.

playing fourball match & player A was by the pin. player B (his partner) was in the bunker.

player A was told he had to mark is ball as if he left it there, it was deemed an unfair advantage on the rest of the field.

i recall that if someone tells you to mark the ball you have to do so, but what on above situation?

Russman

aubreym wrote: »

came across this the other day & can't find it in the rule book.

playing fourball match & player A was by the pin. player B (his partner) was in the bunker.

player A was told he had to mark is ball as if he left it there, it was deemed an unfair advantage on the rest of the field.

i recall that if someone tells you to mark the ball you have to do so, but what on above situation?

Without looking it up, I'd say that's rubbish. What does "rest of the field" mean in a match ?
I think (although more knowledgeable people than me will confirm) as long as the two players don't agree or consult on leaving a ball unmarked, everything is ok. Given that they are partners, it might even be ok for them to agree to leave it there.

I thought marking was an "ask" rather than an order.

aubreym

just to clarify, was a fourball competition throught the day, so not just a matchplay match.

Russman

Having a read of rules 21 & 22, I would think that as long as the two players didn't explicitly agree to leave the ball there, and simply said nothing to each other, then they were absolutely fine. If one had said "I'll leave that there for you" then its a no, no.

I can't find reference to it, but I'm pretty sure a player can't randomly ask another player to mark his ball unless its interfering with his own. Where would you draw the line with that ? Say he hits it to tap in distance on a par 3 and his partner still has to hit........

GreeBo

B can ask A to mark his ball if B is about to play and A'a ball is interfering.

As above problems only arise if the two agree to leave it there.

If A says " will I mark that" then he pretty much has to otherwise it's an agreement to an assist.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

B can ask A to mark his ball if B is about to play and A'a ball is interfering.

As above problems only arise if the two agree to leave it there.

If A says " will I mark that" then he pretty much has to otherwise it's an agreement to an assist.

but they are a team so surely they can indeed decide between themselves and confer?

be different if it was a singles.

OP. A ball on the green never has to be marked for someone who is playing from off the green. Sounds to me like the opposition messing with your heads.

SnowDrifts

stevieob wrote: »

but they are a team so surely they can indeed decide between themselves and confer?

be different if it was a singles.

OP. A ball on the green never has to be marked for someone who is playing from off the green. Sounds to me like the opposition messing with your heads.

The definition of "competitor" includes a partner for fourball/foursomes and as such, Rule 22 still applies.

22/6
Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted

Q.In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A.No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1.

Competitor
A “competitor’’ is a player in a stroke-play competition. A “fellow-competitor’’ is any person with whom the competitor plays. Neither is partner of the other.

In stroke play foursome and four-ball competitions, where the context so admits, the word “competitor’’ or “fellow-competitor’’ includes his partner.

GreeBo

stevieob wrote: »

but they are a team so surely they can indeed decide between themselves and confer?

be different if it was a singles.

OP. A ball on the green never has to be marked for someone who is playing from off the green. Sounds to me like the opposition messing with your heads.

Nope, you cannot decide to leave a ball so that it might assist another player, irrespective of who that other player is.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, you cannot decide to leave a ball so that it might assist another player, irrespective of who that other player is.

Really ? I thought as long as neither players says anything, its not "agreement" ?
I've seen it happen on the tour a few times, once was Darren Clarke chipping it to the edge of the hole in the Dutch Open a few years ago and he simply did nothing when his playing partner chipped with Clarke's ball on the edge of the hole.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, you cannot decide to leave a ball so that it might assist another player, irrespective of who that other player is.

My understanding is different.

22-1. Ball Assisting Play
Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:
a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or
b. Have any other ball lifted.

The key word being "may" rather than must?

Going back to the OP's question (which I think it was clarified that it was a 4 ball playing a stroke comp).
I think that the guy in the 4 ball who asked for the ball to be moved (player c) was entitled to do so even if it was player A in the bunker and player B's ball that might assist.
"if a player considers that A ball might assist ANY other player, he may:"

So if player C said nothing then there would be no plenalty. But the fact that player C has requested (and is entitled to do so) it means that it has to be marked and if it wasn't, a penalty would be incurred.

rrpc

PARlance wrote: »

My understanding is different.

22-1. Ball Assisting Play
Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:
a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or
b. Have any other ball lifted.

The key word being "may" rather than must?

Going back to the OP's question (which I think it was clarified that it was a 4 ball playing a stroke comp).
I think that the guy in the 4 ball who asked for the ball to be moved (player c) was entitled to do so even if it was player A in the bunker and player B's ball that might assist.
"if a player considers that A ball might assist ANY other player, he may:"

I think 'may' signifies that it's his prerogative. 'Must' would imply an obligation on every player which could become very messy indeed.

Once the player exercises his prerogative to have a ball lifted, it seems to be implied in the rule that the ball must be lifted. There does not appear to be a choice available to the player who's ball it is.

mike12

You hear the Pros ask all the time do you want me to mark that and they get a yes or no. If you are off the green then there is no need for any ball on the green to be marked.
But you can mark the ball if you want it is as simple as that.

BraveDonut

In common practice someone saying "take your time" is code for "leave it there please".
Not really breaking a rule but is it truly in the spirit of the game?

Russman

Seems really odd to me that player C can ask player A to mark his (player A's) ball so that it doesn't help player B (irrespective of whether A & B are partners or competitors).
Although I suppose just because he "can" doesn't mean he "should". Certainly not something I've ever seen or something I'd do myself. You'd run out of playing partners pretty quick if you started that craic IMO.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Really ? I thought as long as neither players says anything, its not "agreement" ?
I've seen it happen on the tour a few times, once was Darren Clarke chipping it to the edge of the hole in the Dutch Open a few years ago and he simply did nothing when his playing partner chipped with Clarke's ball on the edge of the hole.

What I mean is that you can't leave it there for the purpose of assisting another player. You can leave it there without issue, especially if making would delay play unduly.

Here is a bizarre decision though:

22/5
Assisting Ball lifted by opponent Replaced on Request; Player’s Ball then Strikes opponent’s Ball and opponent lodges claim
q. in a match between A and B, A’s ball is near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B’s ball. A lifts his ball to clean it. B requests A to
352
replace his ball before he (B) putts. A protests but B insists that, under the Rules, A must replace his ball immediately. A replaces his ball but disputes B’s right to require him to do so and claims the hole. B putts and his ball strikes A’s ball and stops very close to the hole. A replaces his ball and holes out for a 4. B then holes out for a 4. the match continues and the claim is later referred to the committee. how should the committee rule?
A. the hole stands as played. the Rules do not require A to replace his ball, but B was not in breach of the Rules by asking A to replace it – see Rule 22-1.

I've never heard a pro ask about marking or not tbh.