The Pope

maxwell smart

This is not only my first post of this forum, but the first time I have even been on it.

Just read this article on the Sindo

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/pope-francis-promises-solutions-to-priestly-celibacy-30427370.html

I have to say, the Pope is really shaking things up in the Vatican. I am sure there are several hundred issues he will never solve, but even speaking about getting rid of celibacy would, I believe, have the greatest impact on the Catholic religion in centuries. What a guy!

noel farrell

Won't last long if he keeps that up

Jim Rockford

noel farrell wrote: »

Won't last long if he keeps that up

No matter what he's does it will never satisfy the haters

Manach

First welcome to the OP.
My own opinion on the main question,celibacy, is it is an issue that can be debated with merits on both sides. It would one one hand anchor the clergy more closely within the community and perhaps gain more experience on the issues that impact families. However, some communities do not exist in safe politic situations. From my reading on how the Orthodox Church survived in Soviet times, there were prominent cleric dissidents that were broken by threats to their families. There is a long tradition of priests sacrificing all to serve God, and how fair would that be to include their own families.

lazybones32

I doubt that removing celibacy will solve any problem. An increase in seminary numbers doesn't mean more quality, holy and dedicated priests.

Mrs OBumble

“There definitely is a problem but it is not a major one. This needs time but there are solutions and I will find them,”

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/pope-francis-promises-solutions-to-priestly-celibacy-30427370.html#sthash.1xhpRk90.dpuf

Classic manager speak there - we see that sort of announcement in companies all the time. It means that there's a problem and it's enormous. We have a plan in mind, but aren't ready to reveal the details.

And he's right, the problem in Ireland alone in the next 10-15 years is enormous.

Jim Rockford

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

“There definitely is a problem but it is not a major one. This needs time but there are solutions and I will find them,”

Classic manager speak there - we see that sort of announcement in companies all the time. It means that there's a problem and it's enormous. We have a plan in mind, but aren't ready to reveal the details.

And he's right, the problem in Ireland alone in the next 10-15 years is enormous.

Interestingly, all the 'popular' changes demanded by media and popular culture in the UK in the Church of England have failed, they are haemorrhaging members and ministers more now than ever.

A billion Catholics, 400,000 priests, 700,000 nuns, 270,000 parishes, 120,000 seminarians, 55,000 brothers, 5,000 Bishops, 200 Cardinals, and 500 Vatican-Italian civil servants are, as always, going to do all sorts of things, regardless of what the Pope does or says.

Joe Doe

What about the revelations of the '2%' figure ?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28282050 / etc
perhaps castration is also an option for the truly devoted

Jim Rockford

I'm sure you meant that it was the ones that were'nt truly devoted that need the castration.

lazybones32

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/pope-francis-promises-solutions-to-priestly-celibacy-30427370.html#sthash.1xhpRk90.dpuf

Classic manager speak there - we see that sort of announcement in companies all the time. It means that there's a problem and it's enormous. We have a plan in mind, but aren't ready to reveal the details.

And he's right, the problem in Ireland alone in the next 10-15 years is enormous.

I'd disagree. The pedophilia and abuse situation isn't the biggest problem facing the Church. Popular Media suggests it is but the Media and the Church have often had different agendas and priorities.
Ireland's Church will be much smaller in the years to come but most will be there because they want and choose to be part of it. That's a solution, not a problem.

Mrs OBumble

lazybones32 wrote: »

I'd disagree. The pedophilia and abuse situation isn't the biggest problem facing the Church. Popular Media suggests it is but the Media and the Church have often had different agendas and priorities.
Ireland's Church will be much smaller in the years to come but most will be there because they want and choose to be part of it. That's a solution, not a problem.

You might care to read the article I was quoting from. The question which promoted the quote was "will priests ever be allowed to marry".

In Ireland, priests are currently dying at a far faster rate than people are leaving the church.

IMHO there will be married priests in my lifetime.

lazybones32

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You might care to read the article I was quoting from. The question which promoted the quote was "will priests ever be allowed to marry".

In Ireland, priests are currently dying at a far faster rate than people are leaving the church.

IMHO there will be married priests in my lifetime.

Apologies. I skim read.

RobertKK

We already have married Catholic priests.

We have former Anglican ministers/priests who converted to Catholicism and who were married before they converted. They are allowed to be married priests.

There is a case for the option of married clergy and a celibate clergy and for both to exist together. If a man wants to devote his life to God he can choose the celibate option, if he wants to devote his life to God but wants to get married, the option will be allowed I believe.
We read in the bible how Peter was married.

I Heart Internet

I think RobertKK will turn out to be correct.

There is a good case to be made for diocesan priests to be allowed to marry and to serve as married priest. This may lead to a change in how priests are assigned to parishes, but maybe not.

Religious communities, both male and female could (should) remain for celibate people.

Should there be married bishops or even a married Pope? I don't know, to be consistent, perhaps.

Also, as discussed above, in places in this world where catholics and priests are in peril, it may be more appropriate to have celibate priests - perhaps.

mezuzaj

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think RobertKK will turn out to be correct.

There is a good case to be made for diocesan priests to be allowed to marry and to serve as married priest. .

The Pope can't change the Faith, and the original faith never allowed Priests to Marry, it only allowed Married men to become Priests... So if you wanted to be a married priest you needed first to Marry and then be ordained.

There has always been married and celibate priests in the Catholic Church. Today there are a couple of Thousand of Married priests in Different Countries. Ukraine, Lebanon and the East have most of them. There are a good few in UK and US.

So all the Pope can do is to draw from the repository of Faith in the Church, he can't change it. Celibacy for Priests is a Disciple not a Dogma.

The problem the Church will face is how to financially maintain Married priests. And when the Priest dies, what happens to the wife and Children? all of this has to be paid for from the Church.

Priests get from 450 to max 600 euros a week, before tax. Many of the houses priest live in a small, or they have an apartment or shared accommodation. A Family would need more.

Then there is the family to think about, if you are a priest you rarely get weekends off, and you holidays have to be planned in advance. etc..



That said there is a very good case for older men who are currently Deacons to be ordained and to serve voluntarily for the dioceses.

hinault

There is an inherent issue regarding married priests in my opinion.

I think it is very difficult for one person to adequately serve as a husband and as a priest simultaneously.

Where a conflict arises, between duty to ones family and duty to ones ministry, how does that get resolved without compromising one or the other?

Marriage requires commitment.
Holy orders requires commitment.
The twain can't meet without compromising one or the other.

zoomtard

hinault wrote: »

There is an inherent issue regarding married priests in my opinion.

I think it is very difficult for one person to adequately serve as a husband and as a priest simultaneously.

Where a conflict arises, between duty to ones family and duty to ones ministry, how does that get resolved without compromising one or the other?

Marriage requires commitment.
Holy orders requires commitment.
The twain can't meet without compromising one or the other.

That shocked gasp is the sound of all the Anglican, Presbyterian, and Methodist married ministers in Ireland being amazed because they rolled their eyes so hard, they just caught a glimpse of their brain.

More seriously, when a married Anglican priest takes Benedict's invitation up and swims the Tiber, does this old cannard of an argument still hold?

hinault

zoomtard wrote: »

That shocked gasp is the sound of all the Anglican, Presbyterian, and Methodist married ministers in Ireland being amazed because they rolled their eyes so hard, they just caught a glimpse of their brain.

More seriously, when a married Anglican priest takes Benedict's invitation up and swims the Tiber, does this old cannard of an argument still hold?

As a Catholic and as a married person, I do think that it still holds.
That's my opinion.

zoomtard

Can you elaborate on your opinion, preferably by engaging the empirical counter-factual provided by the three other wings of the Christian family - orthodox, protestant and pentecostal all have the option for sacramental leaders who are married, as do the ancient churches of Africa and some churches in communion with Rome such as the Uniates?

hinault

Not point in elaborating.

What system of belief do you adhere to?

mezuzaj

zoomtard wrote: »

That shocked gasp is the sound of all the Anglican, Presbyterian, and Methodist married ministers in Ireland being amazed because they rolled their eyes so hard, they just caught a glimpse of their brain.

More seriously, when a married Anglican priest takes Benedict's invitation up and swims the Tiber, does this old cannard of an argument still hold?

that is not the reason for celibacy and even Pope Francis has said this. It can help, but its not the reason.

zoomtard

mezuzaj wrote: »

that is not the reason for celibacy and even Pope Francis has said this. It can help, but its not the reason.

I totally agree. I suppose that is my point. The church needs the witness of vocational celibacy, both lay and ordained. We can even argue the New Testament teaches celibacy as the default state of the Christian. But the old myth of not being able to fulfill marriage while pastoring is a peculiar kind of delusion Irish Catholics are fond of repeating. If they were more in contact with their Brethren in the other traditions, it would fall away.

For the record Hinault, I'm a Presbyterian.

mezuzaj

zoomtard wrote: »

I totally agree. I suppose that is my point. The church needs the witness of vocational celibacy, both lay and ordained. We can even argue the New Testament teaches celibacy as the default state of the Christian. But the old myth of not being able to fulfill marriage while pastoring is a peculiar kind of delusion Irish Catholics are fond of repeating. If they were more in contact with their Brethren in the other traditions, it would fall away.

For the record Hinault, I'm a Presbyterian.

Actually the Catholic Church has a long history of Married clergy. Most people think of the Catholic Church as being Roman headed by the Pope all governed from Rome.. But that is not the case, there are 20 Churchs in communion with Rome and some of the Churchs have their own traditions and customs.

Being married does not stop someone being a Priest. But its also important to understand the unique situation of the married priest. Its not just a vocation for the Priest, its a vocation also for the wife. Infact the wife has to give consent, without her consent a man can't become a priest. And then there are a whole set of rules around the life of a Married priest.. And if the married falls apart then so does the priest as he can't continue as a Priest.

But if we look at the Orthodox Church that has a lot of Married Priests you will see that many faithful will always seek out the Celibate Monks for confession as they see them as more holy..There is a big history of celibate priests who are monks.

Anyway the Pope can change the practice, but it will require all the Bishops in the Roman Rite to agree.

Mrs OBumble

mezuzaj wrote: »

The problem the Church will face is how to financially maintain Married priests. And when the Priest dies, what happens to the wife and Children? all of this has to be paid for from the Church.

Priests get from 450 to max 600 euros a week, before tax. Many of the houses priest live in a small, or they have an apartment or shared accommodation. A Family would need more.

Then there is the family to think about, if you are a priest you rarely get weekends off, and you holidays have to be planned in advance. etc..

So what happens when a male guard or a teacher or a truck driver dies - what happens to the wife and Children?

Plenty of families in Ireland life on 450-600 euros a week.

And there are plenty of jobs which involve shift work, working at the weekends and being on call. Think doctor, funeral director, guard, council road workers, IT contractors etc. They all manage to devote appropriate time to their families vs their jobs.

mezuzaj

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So what happens when a male guard or a teacher or a truck driver dies - what happens to the wife and Children?

Plenty of families in Ireland life on 450-600 euros a week.

And there are plenty of jobs which involve shift work, working at the weekends and being on call. Think doctor, funeral director, guard, council road workers, IT contractors etc. They all manage to devote appropriate time to their families vs their jobs.

Its their wage paid from a basket? I agree with your post above by the way.